Toy guns,Should they be banned? - DPChallenge Forums

07/22/2008 08:04:19 PM · #226

Here is an interesting and reasonably coherent study on the subject - it at least might help to put some numbers and perspective to the debate.

Some key numbers are not available in any reliable form, such as the number of instances when a gun has been used to ward off attack. Arguments around whether this is effective or not are fundamentally anecdotal and unreliable.

Some of the more reliable numbers relate to the increased likelihood of killing or being killed if you have a gun in your house - the risk is significantly higher than if you do not. I guess that everyone who owns a gun is likely to say that those stats do not apply to him for reason x, y or z, but the overall increase in risk is undeniable.

07/22/2008 08:53:49 PM · #227

Originally posted by Matthew:

An interesting read. I'd also have to say the risk of killing or being killed in a motor vehicle accident increases greatly if you own or ride in a car. So too does the risk of falling down the stairs, if you have those in your house.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

07/22/2008 09:14:54 PM · #228

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

.

An interesting read. I'd also have to say the risk of killing or being killed in a motor vehicle accident increases greatly if you own or ride in a car. So too does the risk of falling down the stairs, if you have those in your house.

True enough, but not all things augment the probability of injury or demise. I personally have not heard of one instance where jumping out of a basement window resulted in suicide. :O)

Ray

07/23/2008 11:22:20 AM · #229

Well, yes, because those studies include suicide. I really do not see suicide as a valid argument against.

"Firearm injury in the United States has averaged 32,538 "

"Firearms are involved in approximately 65% of homicides, 55%
of suicides, 40% of robberies, and 20% of aggravated assaults.7,3"

Might I inquire how many of those homicides were justified self-defense?

This is the game one gets into with statistics. The anti-gun advocates like Matthew will point out such studies. However a number of the elements do not bear weight with individuals like me.

- Suicide, while I am greatly opposed to it, including such statistics in the tallies does not carry weight with me.

- Justified homicides, a rapist breaks into your home, you shoot him dead. I do not think these should included in the same tallies.

"Compared to other causes of death, the number of firearm injury and death in the United States demonstrates its impact on American society."

How does it compare to heart attacks. It's funny, I hear so many different claims as to the leading cause of death.

Oh wait, where is "automobile accident"? Are certain statistics being deliberately left out in order to make a false emphasis. I actually don't know of anyone between the age of 15-24 yrs of age who died from a gun injury. I do know of a number who died of vehicle related incidents. Why are those not shown? Did we really have less than a hundred or so teenagers and young adults die in vehicle accidents?

"The U.S. has the highest rates of both firearm homicide and private firearm ownership."

What percentage of said homicides are enacted by people that a) legally owned the firearm and b) should legally have been able to own a firearm.

"In 2003, firearms were used in 66.9% of all homicides."
I'd wager knives were used in approx. the same percentage of homicides in U.K. where guns have been pretty much banned. But crime has not been...

"Firearm homicide victims are disproportionately young, black, and male. "
So is this study saying we should ban young, black males?

"The age-adjusted rate of firearm homicide among black males in
2002 (28.6 per 100,000) was more than eight times that of white males 3.4 per 100,000). 3,27"

Might I point out that legal firearm ownership is extremely low among the black community. Perhaps this is the correlating reason for high homicide rates?

" 1,756 people were killed by offenders during these felonies. In
contrast, there were 566 cases of justifiable homicide using a firearm; law enforcement officers killed 363 people and 203 people were justifiably killed by private citizens.

1,756 people were murdered.
1,132 deaths were justiable.

Wow, that's more balanced than I expected such a figure to be. The fact that there are numerous incidents in which a firearm is used in defense that does not result in the death of either the victim or perpetrator. This leads me to believe legal gun ownership is actually a positive thing based on the evidence presented.

"In 2001 an increase in violent crime was experienced for the first time in almost a decade. The largest increases were seen in cities with populations of 250,000 â�� 499,999. Similar to the explanations for periods when crime indices decline, there are no definitive answers for the recent increases in murder and robbery"

Is it the fact that all those people who got 10 yr sentences in 1991 are back on the streets now?

"The National Crime Victimization Survey (NCVS) yields a more
conservative estimate, approximately 100,000 defensive gun uses (DGU) each year."

A conservative estimate of 100,000. How many of those would be dead, maimed, or raped otherwise?

"Unintentional firearm deaths represent a small proportion of firearm fatalities (See Figure 11) and have steadily declined since the 1930s."

And has been already stated in the report, many of these are probably intentional attempts of suicide being labeled unintentional. And a large number are probably gang bangers/criminals mishandling their firearms. For which I have little sympathy.

"Yet there is a marked relationship between gun ownership and firearm homicide. Across industrialized countries, homicides are more prevalent in countries with more firearms and the United States has both the highest number of privately owned guns among industrialized nations and the
highest rate of firearm homicides."

Would anyone expect anything different? In a country with lower availability of firearms. Deaths by firearms will be less. However, violence may or may not be less.

"The rate of firearm suicide among a cohort of adults who purchased a handgun was 57 times higher in the first week after the purchase than was the firearm suicide rate in the United States in general."

So a lot of people have made a pre-meditated decision to end their lives. Rather than a spur of the moment decision. They've chosen a firearm because it is one of the quicker methods. Rather than hanging, etc. Dr. Kevorkian would argue the problem is we don't have medical access hence firearms are used.

I would argue we have other major problems in our society, communities, and families. That have led to suicide being such a plague.

"The estimated relative risk of dying from an unintentionally inflicted gunshot wound is times higher among adults who have guns in their home compared to others."
I'd wager the risk of dying in a car accident is many times more likely if you own a car.

"Consumers should be well informed when making the decision of whether or not to purchase a firearm, given the potential harm and effect of owning a gun. Evidence from regulation of consumer products demonstrates that designing safer products and restricting access to dangerous products can prevent injuries and death. All firearms, are regulated for safety by the government."

Really, well I would like to disagree. There are quite a few regulations in various state governments on the matter. Oh, and guess what, many manufacturers have added numerous safety features into their firearms.

But the best safety for a firearm is to always treat it as loaded, and never point it at anything you don't want to kill or destroy.

"One of the best examples of the role of consumer product safety regulation is the design of motor vehicles. Safety features such as seat belts and airbags, the setting of safety standards, and strict licensing laws contributed to the significant decrease in the number of motor vehicle-related deaths over the past thirty years. While the death rate for motor vehicle crashes has decreased since 1968, the firearm death rate has remained relatively stable during the same period"

This should only apply to "accidental" firearm deaths. Which if I recall from the report has decreased. Could this be because many firearm manufacturers like Ruger have implemented safety features over the past two decades.

On top of the old style safeties. Firearm manufacturers began promoting and including locks for guns. They've gone even further in recent years.

Here are some of the features found on a number of Ruger pistols:
- safety
- internal trigger lock
- loaded chamber indicator (shows if a bullet is in the firearm)
- magazine disconnect (releasing the magazine disables the firing mechanism)

"Current Federal Laws Are Not Enough"
Actually, they are. However, they are not enforced. For instance, a Philly police officer was shot and killed by a man with a rap sheet nearly a dozen pages long. The shooter had 13 accounts of illegal possession of a firearm and illegal possession of a firearm with intent or use in a crime. The question, THE REAL QUESTION, .......T-H-E R-E-A-L Q-U-E-S-T-I-O-N .....is why was this man walking the streets instead of being behind bars. All the laws were there to keep the Philly police officer alive. They just were not enforced.

Rather, our government chooses to attack licensed gun dealers, and legal gun owners than focus on the real areas of the problem.

"70% of people polled agreed with the statement that government should do â��everything it can to keep handguns out of the hands of criminalsâ�¦â��
52% of gun owners agreed with this same statement."

Change that to the government should do everything it can to keep handguns out of the hands of criminals while maintaining the good citizen's right to keep and use handguns. And I bet you'd have 99.9% of legal gun owners support it.

"94 % believe that handguns made in the U.S. should meet the same standards as imported handguns. "
Please explain what this means? What standard of imported guns are not being met. If you mean that U.S. manufactured firearms should meet every standard by ever other nation out there. Then do we mandate that U.S. automobiles should meet ALL European and asian standards as well?

***

The report is starting to fall down here. As it tries to go beyond statistics into policy making. It's stumbles. The questions are poorly worded and unclear.

It's like saying that 99% of Americans would like to see a change in their government. And then reporting 99% of Americans want Obama!

"81% of people polled believe handgun purchases should be limited to one per month."

a) where was the poll conducted? did they hit rural, mid-western states?
b) what affect will this have? what are they trying to target? The large scale distribution of firearms? Well those are smuggled into U.S. as crates direct from the manufacturer. Other than that, this would do little to reduce crime.

"82% agree with mandatory registration of handguns and pistols."
Great, so they can go door to door and take them away. As registration always does. Oh, guess what....most states have gun registration already. Pennsylvania officially does NOT have a gun registration program. However, ever sale is recorded by Pennsylvania. It's a registration in all but name.

"90% of those polled would require handgun manufacturers to make serial numbers tamper- resistant."
There is no such thing. How do you make a steel imprinted serial number tamper resistant. People just saw it off....

"Remove firearms from specific environments (e.g. homes, schools, public areas, airports, areas associated with alcohol consumption.)"

Because this has prevented how many school shootings?

It's like the "Drug Free Zone" signs. Which a) consider drugs are illegal all zones are drug free zones and b) said signs are only placed in places that are filled with drugs. If i see a "Drug Free Zone" sign, I know the neighborhood has a drug problem.

"Design and/or replace existing firearms with personalized weapons"
WHAT DOES THIS MEAN? I get to have my name engraved.... :)

No, what it means is a convuluted theory to have serial numbers on bullets, laser etching on firing pins, etc. All of which will result in zero solving of crime. And actual criminals will remove all such aspects with a simple rasp file. It's really an attempt to bankrupt the firearm and ammo manufacturers. Interestingly, there is usually an exception for law enforcement. Which means our law enforcement officers will either be the illegal gun dealers or they will be killed specifically for their guns and ammo. Great. That's if you could eliminate the thousands of guns and millions of rounds of ammo already available.

"Prevent criminals and youth from purchasing and carrying weapons "
This is already law pretty much EVERYWHERE. But guess what, criminals break laws.

"Increase waiting periods before purchase"
Do this, and a lot of gun owners will start buying illegally. If you're travelling out of state and you see a beautiful antique pistol just like the one your grandfather used to own. You want to buy it and have it shipped back to a gun dealer in your state (because that's what legally must be done these days). Except now you can't.

How do you buy a gun at a gun show then? Aha...that's what this truly is, an anti-gun show law. Guess what, every gun show I've been too the dealers do background checks. The fact that private citizens can sell rifles. Well, do you think anything is going to stop a one-to-one transaction? Or is the government going to check in on eveyr gun owner to make sure they have all their firearms. How would they do that? Oh wait, that's why they want a gun registration.

"Regulate ammunition availability"
STUPID.... people who buy large amounts of ammo are usually NOT the one's you have to worry about. Granted, I think felons should not be allowed to buy ammo.

And what would you set the limit at? The people calling for this, do not use firearms. So they are clueless as to how ammo relates. For instance how much is a lot of ammo? 500 rounds? 1,000?

Do you realize that many advanced firearm training courses require 500 rounds of ammo just to complete the course. So are you going to restrict gun owners from taking and completing advanced firearm training courses? Which will make them and you safer?

"Modify purchase applications from â��shall issueâ�� to â��may issueâ�� "
Why....so that white bigoted sheriffs in the south can refuse any black man the right to bear arms and protect him and his family. That was the original intention of such laws by the way.

"Modify firearm design with loaded chamber indicators, Trigger locks, Magazine safeties"
Already common on a LOT of new models.

"Counter positive, attractive image of firearms, perhaps by regulating handgun advertising"
Government censorship. Great...now you're talking about taking away both the 1st and 2nd Amendments. Anything else you'd like to take from "We the People"?

"Provide accurate information about the dangers of carrying handguns for self-protection"
Ha, not from any of you guys. I doubt you'd ever provide accurate info on that topic.

"Eliminate concealed carry protection"
Are you kidding me...??? Why? SO the entire nation can be as dangerous as Washington D.C.

"This interpretation of the Second Amendment is controversial, and has not been supported by the U.S. Supreme Court, which last ruled on the issue in 1939."

Well, that's a bit outdated. The Second Amendment was confirmed as an individual right on June 26, 2008.

"Enforce stricter sentencing in the criminal justice system"
THIS ONE I ABSOLUTELY AGREE WITH!!! No man with 13 counts of illegal possession of a firearm and use in a crime should be walking the streets.

***

How about some other incentives....real easy ones that could save lives. I'll give you one:

- Make firearm specific locks, safes, etc. A tax write-off. This would make it much more affordable for gun owners to purchase a safe. Which would greatly reduce both the risk of children accidentally gaining access to firearms AND the risk of said firearms being stolen by a criminal and used in a later crime.

Now there you have it, an intelligent proposition that could reduce firearm incidents significantly more than ALL the suggestions listed by said report.

07/23/2008 11:30:51 AM · #230

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
.

An interesting read. I'd also have to say the risk of killing or being killed in a motor vehicle accident increases greatly if you own or ride in a car. So too does the risk of falling down the stairs, if you have those in your house.

True enough, but not all things augment the probability of injury or demise. I personally have not heard of one instance where jumping out of a basement window resulted in suicide. :O)

Ray

True, but basement windows, or rather the typical size of basement windows, has prevented egress in emergencies. Thus new code requirements for at least one basement exit to the outside.

07/23/2008 06:27:59 PM · #231

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Agreed. But stairs are there to improve the efficiency of use of land, not to provide protection. Cars are there to make travel easier, not to provide protection. The arguments that a gun provides protection starts to break down if in fact the protection comes at such a high cost.

07/23/2008 06:34:43 PM · #232

Originally posted by theSaj:

The anti-gun advocates like Matthew will point out such studies. However a number of the elements do not bear weight with individuals like me.

I have owned guns and still shoot from time to time.

The study seems moderately well balanced and admits its own shortcomings. It quotes sources and studies and contains analysis rather than opinion.

I enjoy responsible gun ownership but I don't like ill informed, anecdotal, and simplistic arguments.

07/23/2008 11:32:34 PM · #233

Originally posted by Matthew:

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
An interesting read. I'd also have to say the risk of killing or being killed in a motor vehicle accident increases greatly if you own or ride in a car. So too does the risk of falling down the stairs, if you have those in your house.

Agreed. But stairs are there to improve the efficiency of use of land, not to provide protection. Cars are there to make travel easier, not to provide protection. The arguments that a gun provides protection starts to break down if in fact the protection comes at such a high cost.

It's just as easy to say that cars are there to provide safe travel and stairs are there to provide a safe way to move from floor to floor in a building. Accidents and injuries from either could be prevented if they both were outlawed and public transit and elevators were mandatory. That's the same thing as saying a dog/alarm system/phone/locks on the doors provide protection equivalent to a firearm. They do provide a measure of protection, but in a different manner.

07/24/2008 08:58:05 AM · #234

"The arguments that a gun provides protection starts to break down if in fact the protection comes at such a high cost."

The cost is quite debatable. Second, travel comes at a high cost. I could argue that not only are there all the lives that die in accidents. But all the health/respiratory disease related to automobile exhaust. And I can jump on the global warming bandwagon and point out how it's one of the leading contributors to CO2 emissions and could lead to the death of billions.

After such a conclusion, firearms sure look safe don't they. :P

"I have owned guns and still shoot from time to time. "

***

"The study seems moderately well balanced and admits its own shortcomings. It quotes sources and studies and contains analysis rather than opinion. "

I felt that the study was reasonable until the last page or two where they just threw in all the stuff that gun control advocates have been clamoring for. Many of which are not well thought out, are completely ineffective, and really are just a means to us economics and laws to stop production.

My other big gripe with the report is when it mixed the issues a bit. As I stated in my commentary.

"I enjoy responsible gun ownership but I don't like ill informed, anecdotal, and simplistic arguments. "

***

Lastly, we haven't even gotten into the aspect of the other use of firearms on a national level for defense of the people on a national level.

Now, some may think we are beyond a time when we'd need such. Where the common people might have to stand against the government and army.

- The Saj

PS - Matthew, when was the last time you went shooting in the U.K.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

07/24/2008 09:41:48 AM · #235

Gee Saj, all that banter is interesting, but do you think we could get back on topic.

Ray

smjbmw

Nikon D3100

Nikon AF Nikkor 20mm f/2.8D

07/24/2008 10:33:57 AM · #236

There is really two different points of view on this topic,

One: The Public does not want realistic looking guns in the hands of immature kids who may start bringing them to school and getting shot by the police, as for people brandishing them in public there is only one real answer to this.

Charge them with weapons crimes (the police are suppose to do that anyways)

Two: The Sports, PaintBall can now use realistic looking weapons such as M4A1's from a company called RAP, Another sport that is not as well known but still is alive is Airsoft. Airsoft guns are 1:1 replicas that shoot small white plastic bbs (6mm to 8mm)

Airsoft is played the same way as "Paint ball" but with only ballistics glasses for protection. The guns range from Remington M700/M24 sniper rifles, to m4, ak47, g36, glocks, barettas, you name it you can get it.

The problem with airsoft guns in the states is they are open to pretty much any kid to buy. And they are cheap! $80 will get you a nice full metal 1:1 scale hand gun

In Canada these guns are hard to find/get and you must be 18+ to purchase
which is regulated by getting age verified by reps all around the country.

I will post some pictures of airsoft guns in my profile after I finish writing this and post the link so you can see why in some places these are banned

**EDIT**
Couldn't find the pics on my external hard drive but here is a video from a friend taken at a game.

//www.youtube.com/watch?v=bcrWOwv-y30

You will see why we keep these on the field and not in public

Message edited by author 2008-07-24 10:55:30.

07/24/2008 02:39:10 PM · #237

Originally posted by RayEthier:

Gee Saj, all that banter is interesting, but do you think we could get back on topic.

Ray

As long as no more PDFs are posted, probably. ;-)

Sorry Ray, just toying with ya on that one.

- Jason

07/24/2008 04:23:27 PM · #238

Originally posted by theSaj:

Lastly, we haven't even gotten into the aspect of the other use of firearms on a national level for defense of the people on a national level.

Now, some may think we are beyond a time when we'd need such. Where the common people might have to stand against the government and army.

- The Saj

Ummm that makes me think you're one of those conspiracy/survivalist nuts with a fortified underground bunker stocked with 6 mo supply of food, water, ammunition and guns buried in the backyard.

07/24/2008 05:10:03 PM · #239

"Ummm that makes me think you're one of those conspiracy/survivalist nuts"

Naw...

No, but if we keep over-spending our nation into debt. And continue to devalue the dollar towards the peso. It could get messy. Do you remember the LA riots or New Orleans?

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

07/24/2008 05:16:14 PM · #240

//www.cnn.com/2008/CRIME/07/24/road.rage.killing.ap/index.html

And if our government is going to keep releasing violent criminals and illegal alien gang members. Then we will need our guns, and our toy guns to train our children how to protect themselves.

thegrandwazoo

Nikon D750

07/24/2008 05:21:31 PM · #241

Originally posted by theSaj:

Man that is sad. The whole thing could have been prevented by enforcing existing federal law. WTF!