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06/04/2008 04:37:31 PM · #1 |
Can a photographer take pictures at a public event ... i.e.. a childs ball game, and then put them for sale on their website without permission from the parent/guardian?
I have been asked by some parents to approach another photographer in our area that is doing this and ask them to take all the kids photos off of our team, but I wanted to find out what the rule is. I surely do not want my childs photos on that site for sale, but is what this person doing illegal or okay?
I understand wanting to make money from the photos, I put the photos *I* take on my website, but I do have a signed release from each parent as well.
thanks! |
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06/04/2008 04:54:45 PM · #2 |
I take pictures at a little leagues football games, and post them on my site for sale.
Of course, the pictures are generally password protected, for the most part, so I don't know if that makes a difference.
As far as releases, while I could possibly get releases from "my" parents, there is not practical way to do it for the other team.
Also, sometimes when a child signs up for a sport, there is a clause in the registration about photographs.
That is the long answer.
The short answer is, "I really don't know." |
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06/04/2008 04:56:24 PM · #3 |
| oh let me add too, that this photographer is not associated with the league at all, and as far as any of us know, the person doesnt have kids on any of the team. |
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06/04/2008 05:10:33 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by gwe21:
oh let me add too, that this photographer is not associated with the league at all, and as far as any of us know, the person doesnt have kids on any of the team. |
Are they playing little league in a public space ?
Then yes, he's allowed to sell them, with or without permission.
If it is a private location they are playing at, then the owner or authority for the park would need to indicate that they didn't want him here and then consider filing charges of trespass if he didn't stop. You can take pictures of anything and anyone you want, in public. |
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06/04/2008 05:26:49 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by gwe21:
Can a photographer take pictures at a public event ... i.e.. a childs ball game, and then put them for sale on their website without permission from the parent/guardian?
I have been asked by some parents to approach another photographer in our area that is doing this and ask them to take all the kids photos off of our team, but I wanted to find out what the rule is. Ithanks! |
Honestly this is not something I would get invloved with in any case... if you say to the parents that you'll talk to the guy, you've raised their expecation of it happening... if you fail they'll be mad at the photographer and dissapopinted in you. Also, unless I was a lawyer paid to do so, I wouldn't go to another in my profession claiming to act on the behalf of others in a case like this.
Just my .02 |
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06/04/2008 05:32:41 PM · #6 |
Originally posted by Eyesup:
Originally posted by gwe21:
Can a photographer take pictures at a public event ... i.e.. a childs ball game, and then put them for sale on their website without permission from the parent/guardian?
I have been asked by some parents to approach another photographer in our area that is doing this and ask them to take all the kids photos off of our team, but I wanted to find out what the rule is. Ithanks! |
Honestly this is not something I would get invloved with in any case... if you say to the parents that you'll talk to the guy, you've raised their expecation of it happening... if you fail they'll be mad at the photographer and dissapopinted in you. Also, unless I was a lawyer paid to do so, I wouldn't go to another in my profession claiming to act on the behalf of others in a case like this.
Just my .02 |
oh I know. I just dont want MY kid on there, and they dont want theirs, so they wanted to present a united front I guess.. .and since I have the most experience in photography, they asked me to broach the subject... does that make sense?
A friend of mine last season had a similar problem with a photographer taking pics at soccer games and putting them online to sell... they hired an attorney and the photog had to take down the photos because they were recognizable people.
The ball park is run by the city athletic association and has photographers that do all the action shots.
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06/04/2008 06:07:49 PM · #7 |
Erica, what is it exactly that you are concerned about?
- That some random photographer takes pictures of your kids?
- That he publishes them online for everyone to see?
- That he tries to sell them and make money?
What's your goal? Do you just want to stop him from selling the pictures? Or from publishing them? Or from taking them in the first place? |
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06/04/2008 06:46:02 PM · #8 |
In my situation, I am acting as the "league photographer" of sorts -- meaning that they have given me the privilege (exclusively) to be on the field to take the pictures and sell them. That could make a difference.
I should think that if enough of you are concerned, go to the league commissioner, or whatever, and express your concern. It may be that s/he has permission and there is nothing you can do. |
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06/04/2008 07:14:32 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Sam94720:
Erica, what is it exactly that you are concerned about?
- That some random photographer takes pictures of your kids?
- That he publishes them online for everyone to see?
- That he tries to sell them and make money?
What's your goal? Do you just want to stop him from selling the pictures? Or from publishing them? Or from taking them in the first place? |
*My* only concern is the photos of MY child on her site... I will ask her to take them down.
I also wanted to know the legalities of what she is doing. Just in case I am ever in that situation myself. I know there is not an expectation of privacy in a public ball park, but I wasnt sure legally what could be done.
I thought that if a photog took a photo of a person and tried to sell it they could be sued without a model release right? So doesnt that apply to anyone?
I dunno, maybe I am just confusing myself!! :) |
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06/04/2008 07:15:40 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by karmat:
In my situation, I am acting as the "league photographer" of sorts -- meaning that they have given me the privilege (exclusively) to be on the field to take the pictures and sell them. That could make a difference.
I should think that if enough of you are concerned, go to the league commissioner, or whatever, and express your concern. It may be that s/he has permission and there is nothing you can do. |
karma, I have permission to take pics on the fields, but I ONLY take photos of our team. Because I dont take them to make money, rather I take them to use on my site and to give the parents action shots of their kids (since most of our games are night games).
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06/04/2008 07:59:03 PM · #11 |
I'm also only taking pictures of our team, but the very nature of football means that the other team is captured as well.
If it is in a public or city park, you may be able to ask him to take them down, but that doesn't mean he has too. Again, I would talk to the head of the league and see what they say. Their word would probably be a bit stronger in getting the guy to leave, or he may have permission to be there.
If the latter, you may not have a "right" to force him to remove them. You can ask, but he may not have to. |
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06/04/2008 08:07:08 PM · #12 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by gwe21:
oh let me add too, that this photographer is not associated with the league at all, and as far as any of us know, the person doesnt have kids on any of the team. |
Are they playing little league in a public space ?
Then yes, he's allowed to sell them, with or without permission. |
Without a release, there are limitations on *how* they can be sold, if the subjects are recognizable:
â€Â¢ they can be sold as individually-printed, "fine arts" prints; they cannot be sold in mass reproduction formats such as greeting cards or coffee mugs
â€Â¢ they can be posted as stock images for editorial use only -- that means they could be used to illustrate a news story about Little League baseball, but not in an ad for the uniform manufacturer
â€Â¢ they can be posted for comment, criticism, or educational discussion |
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06/04/2008 08:16:15 PM · #13 |
| I guess legally things might be tricky. So instead of threatening with legal action, I'd try a friendly e-mail, which will probably do the job. If you tell her you don't feel comfortable with her publishing and selling pictures of your kids, she'll probably take them down. (By the way, who is she hoping to sell them to? Probably the parents, right? So if they show no interest, it doesn't make much sense to keep them on the site.) |
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06/05/2008 11:17:31 PM · #14 |
I do sports action photography and my general rule of thumb is to go to the league first. I find out if the have any contracts with any photographers, and if they don't I ask for permission to shoot on-site and make a deal to donate photos back the the league for use on their website and any advertisting for their programs.
I have also been contacted by parents that know I was shooting for the league and didn't want their kids pictures posted. All I have ever asked is for them to help me identify the photos and I'll pull them, since my target audience is the parents.
As others have said, take your concerns to the league commissioner(s) and find out if thie photographer has their permission to be there.
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06/06/2008 12:25:41 AM · #15 |
Originally posted by gwe21:
*My* only concern is the photos of MY child on her site... I will ask her to take them down.
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OK, again, why does this bother you?
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06/06/2008 01:38:41 AM · #16 |
Isn't this a sporting event that anybody can come to? Aren̢۪t the photos simply frozen moments that anybody was able to see if they were there?
They are sporting shots, not sexual, so I don't seem to understand the problem but maybe somebody should enlighten me, is there something I should be aware of in regard to this type of photo?
What if the local paper was to take some shots of your boys and put them in the newspaper for all to see. Would you have a problem with that? What's the difference?
IMO people viewing the site will more than likely be the parents of the children that he/she has taken photos of. I gather these same parents will be the ones purchasing the photos and that the photos would roll over ever couple of week to the more current games.
I'm sure the person has taken some absolutely fantastic action shots of your team. Why not embrace this person who is spending a great amount of time capturing special moments especially if they are selling these images at a reasonable price. Many parents don̢۪t have a camera that could take this type of shot and are pleased that someone can and that they can purchase them.
I have done this type of team shooting for my local club. It's a long day of hoping to capture a great shot, you don't even get to watch the game properly if your kids are participating. Many parents come up to you asking where they can get a copy if there are any good ones. Even the kids love to see themselves frozen in time with a good image.
Here are some of mine that I have posted on the sports thread here before.
That's my son with the dark hair in the first and third shot.
    
Message edited by author 2008-06-06 01:50:43. |
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06/06/2008 02:26:06 AM · #17 |
Sorry Gw but, the other photog is free to do what they want because it's a public venue. A very good friend of mine just went throught the exact same thing last weekend. He was hired by the league to shoot and someone else showed up and did the exact same thing he was doing. Nothing you can do except offer a better product. Sorry I know it's not what you want to hear but that's life.
I'd personally like to strangle the execs at Nikon and Canon for dumping so many prosumer cameras onto the market. Now every winkin charlie with a camera thinks they can run out and suddenly be a Monte Zucker or Amy Liebowitz. I'll take a beating for this post from a lot of photogs on this sight but it's true. X-mas morning they get a nice new D-something and come New Years Eve their John Does Photo Studio charging a tenth of what the market goes for. Granite you get what you pay for but it's getting tougher to explain to clients the difference between a X-mas photog and a professional. I don't fear them by any means I actually find them useful. They weed out the cheapskates and tight wads that I would have wasted my time and gas on. What sucks is eventually the economics of it might force me to lower my prices to compete in a market that I really want nothing to do with. Craigslist is a scary example of what might come to pass. It used to be that photographers would pay their dues as a second, learn the trade in a respectful manner and ease your way into the biz without upsetting the cart for everyone else. You would price yourself along side the other photographers so not to upset the balance of the market. Now we have this high speed mentality that everything happens NOW. X-mas guy wakes up and starts with I have my camera NOW there for I am a pro NOW. I'm going to shoot your wedding for $50. And before everyone starts... I know... you get what you pay for. And thats true but, do you know how much DAMAGE those A' ' holes ar causing? It makes every bride to be, model, senior, corp. exec and what ever else client you shoot so damn gun shy when it comes to photographers now that their is almost no trust. THey look at the lot of us and snicker. We're all Uncle Robert with a camera at this point.
I'm sorry for the rant but this has been on my chest for a while now. I have my website, I have my awesome Canon gear and I have my degree in photography so I should be thankful.
Okay you can begin with the Tar and Feathers I'm ready...
Message edited by author 2008-06-06 02:38:58. |
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06/06/2008 02:34:58 AM · #18 |
WTF? You can make $50 just shooting a wedding?? Dayum, I'm all over dat! I just got this 30D last year for Christmas and was tryin to figger out a way to make some dough with it.
Thanks Uncle Robert! You da man! |
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06/06/2008 04:42:17 AM · #19 |
It's funny - I was just taliking with a lawyer last night who specialises in "intellectual property".
He's spin was - public place, anybody can take and use (Australian law) - whatever the reason.
You can complain and not like - but nothing you can do legally.
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06/06/2008 05:20:04 AM · #20 |
It should be noted that in the US at least, complaining "too much" can get you in trouble for harassment. Though you they would probably have a hard time in court if no one heard them you threaten you them or try to knock your their camera or something. Not that I am condoning any such thing, just because there are no witnesses doesn't make harassment right or legal. :)
Edit: Heh, that wasn't clear at all initially xD
Message edited by author 2008-06-06 09:39:30. |
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06/06/2008 09:26:15 AM · #21 |
I may be echoing what has been posted above, but my suggestion, if it truly bothers you, is to simply ask the photographer to remove certain pictures as a courtesy. Just tell him that although you are aware that he has every right to what he is doing, it personally bothers you. Most reasonable people would comply without second thought.
That being said, and I am not trying to single out anyone, it amazes me that so many of the people that get upset over their kid's photograph on a website would be on the phone calling friends, family, and their dogs to let them all know that their kid's picture is in the 'Neighborhood' section of the local paper. And I don't think distribution (global internet) is the concern as I could only imagine the reaction if a photo appeared in Sports Illustrated. |
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06/06/2008 09:52:18 AM · #22 |
A photographer telling another photographer he's not allowed to take pictures...just because... doesn't cut it with me. If I were the photographer and had the league's consent, I would refuse to remove the images. What's with these parents not wanting their kids photographed anyways? They're in a public place playing a spectator sport.
What if the photographer was a very popular sports shooter for a well known magazine? Would you complain? He's making money off the shoot therefore off your kids? So where's the difference? |
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06/06/2008 10:00:02 AM · #23 |
I think the real bottom line here is some people are irritated that another person may be making $$$ from selling their kids' photos, legal or not isn't the issue IMO. It's almost like, "why didn't I think of that?", or "how dare you make a profit from action photo's of my kid's team?!"
Similar experience here, from the photographer's POV - I posted 115 photos of my son's soccer team (photos other than my son), in a password protected gallery on smugmug, all 4x6's @ .25 cents apiece, as a courtesy to the parents. To date, 4000+ views for that gallery - zero sales. I've gotten quite a bit of feedback such as "Thanks! That's great!", etc... An interesting experiece. BTW - I had a photographer friend of mine that does portrait work look at these photos...he thought they were fine, good quality images.
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06/06/2008 10:04:55 AM · #24 |
I think one point thats being missed here is this:
Almost without exception, the only person that wants to buy pictures of your kids is you, the parents. Just because pictures of your kids are "for sale" does not mean that they are selling, especially if you, the parent, are not buying. Seriously, do you go around buying pictures of other people's kids?
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06/06/2008 10:22:05 AM · #25 |
| Lol, kudos to anyone who admits to that. *begins digging a foxhole...* |
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