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06/04/2008 01:12:08 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I'm all for free and fair trade, but why should the US always take the short end of the trade agreement stick? |
That's what happens when you are on the back foot... |
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06/04/2008 01:19:44 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by Bebe:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
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As for evidence on what the US gives to other countries, you'd be better served by looking to the US State Dept figures, but I assure you that the US is one of the most, if not the most, generous countries in the world. ...
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Not even close to being true. Here's a quick read: Danes most generous.
Last time I checked (about 10 years ago, and I can't find U.S. aid breakdown now), the U.S. included in it's "aid" listings subsidized sales of military equipment to other countries, particularly Egypt & Israel who constituted almost 70% of all aid given. The amount of money given to the poor of the world was very small indeed.
Note: These figures do not take into account the private donations of Americans, which can be very generous in times of need.
edited for typos and to include a new link |
If you look at it per capita, maybe. And why wouldn't you count military aid? It also doesn't account for the "American Tax" aka the imbalanced trade agreements so popular in many countries. |
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06/04/2008 01:23:57 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I don't go BOOM! when you squeeze me |
{gush} That's the sweetest thing you've ever said to me. |
OK, well don't get any ideas about walking down the beach holding hands and long hot showers... |
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06/04/2008 01:26:42 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Bebe:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
...
As for evidence on what the US gives to other countries, you'd be better served by looking to the US State Dept figures, but I assure you that the US is one of the most, if not the most, generous countries in the world. ...
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Not even close to being true. Here's a quick read: Danes most generous.
Last time I checked (about 10 years ago, and I can't find U.S. aid breakdown now), the U.S. included in it's "aid" listings subsidized sales of military equipment to other countries, particularly Egypt & Israel who constituted almost 70% of all aid given. The amount of money given to the poor of the world was very small indeed.
Note: These figures do not take into account the private donations of Americans, which can be very generous in times of need.
edited for typos and to include a new link |
If you look at it per capita, maybe. And why wouldn't you count military aid? It also doesn't account for the "American Tax" aka the imbalanced trade agreements so popular in many countries. |
Why wouldn't you use "per capita"? But it's also true as a percentage of GDP. Here's a more indepth article. Sure, if you say that the US give more as a dollar amount that's true. Here's what the linked article says:
USA̢۪s aid, in terms of percentage of their GNP has almost always been lower than any other industrialized nation in the world, though paradoxically since 2000, their dollar amount has been the highest. (Only since 2004 have they move up from last place, by just one or two places.)
Since 1992, Japan had been the largest donor of aid, in terms of raw dollars. That was until 2001 when the United States reclaimed that position, a year that also saw Japan̢۪s amount of aid drop by nearly 4 billion dollars (as tables and charts below will also show).
However, I don't feel proud of being the largest donor in terms of dollars; I'm embarrassed that we (who tend to brag loudly of our generosity) are actually 22nd in terms of per capita, giving about 20% of what more generous nations give. |
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06/04/2008 02:03:01 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by Bebe:
However, I don't feel proud of being the largest donor in terms of dollars; I'm embarrassed that we (who tend to brag loudly of our generosity) are actually 22nd in terms of per capita, giving about 20% of what more generous nations give. |
Why should the US give more? Do any of those countries, besides Israel, that the US supplies with aid actually do anything to show any amount of gratitude? The US has plenty of domestic problems, maybe the money would be better spent on those and what's left can go overseas.
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06/04/2008 02:06:31 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Bebe:
However, I don't feel proud of being the largest donor in terms of dollars; I'm embarrassed that we (who tend to brag loudly of our generosity) are actually 22nd in terms of per capita, giving about 20% of what more generous nations give. |
Why should the US give more? Do any of those countries, besides Israel, that the US supplies with aid actually do anything to show any amount of gratitude? The US has plenty of domestic problems, maybe the money would be better spent on those and what's left can go overseas. |
I would prefer that we give more, but we can agree to disagree on that. What I find irritating is when Americans believe we're the most generous country in the world, and pronounce this loudly, when we're not.
Message edited by author 2008-06-04 14:20:18. |
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06/04/2008 02:26:20 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Bebe:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Bebe:
However, I don't feel proud of being the largest donor in terms of dollars; I'm embarrassed that we (who tend to brag loudly of our generosity) are actually 22nd in terms of per capita, giving about 20% of what more generous nations give. |
Why should the US give more? Do any of those countries, besides Israel, that the US supplies with aid actually do anything to show any amount of gratitude? The US has plenty of domestic problems, maybe the money would be better spent on those and what's left can go overseas. |
I would prefer that we give more, but we can agree to disagree on that. What I find irritating is when Americans believe we're the most generous country in the world, and pronounce this loudly, when we're not. |
What I find irritating is that we continue to give to people who are evidently incapable of showing gratitude.
It's one of those basic things that even my 5 year old can grasp. When someone gives you something nice, you say "Thank You" and you mean it.
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06/04/2008 02:33:02 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
What I find irritating is that we continue to give to people who are evidently incapable of showing gratitude. |
In a practical sense using real examples, and without using the word "not", how would you have nations show their gratitude for international aid? |
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06/04/2008 02:43:37 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
What I find irritating is that we continue to give to people who are evidently incapable of showing gratitude. |
In a practical sense using real examples, and without using the word "not", how would you have nations show their gratitude for international aid? |
Having equitable trade policies would be a start. Using their regional influence with their neighbors to encourage them to do the same. Make sure their citizens know who provided the money (or portion of the money) for the new hospital/power plant/grain mill/water filtration system/road/food on their plate etc. Things like that. |
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06/04/2008 03:56:23 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It's one of those basic things that even my 5 year old can grasp. When someone gives you something nice, you say "Thank You" and you mean it. |
Do you do that with your boss each month ? |
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06/04/2008 04:00:40 PM · #61 |
| I dunno, I was always taught to say thank you, but I also learned that if you give with the expectation of something in return it's not giving, it's trading... |
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06/04/2008 04:06:13 PM · #62 |
What is your sorce on this? Or is this just Imagined as a possibility? PLease seriously No more unsupported facts.
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I don't think any assertions were made in the email. The point is not that people from foreign countries are "bombers" rather that they tend to "bite the hand that feeds them". They love to visit, accept foreign aid money, military aid and come here for an education (at, as you noted, some of the finest post-graduate universities in the world) yet, they often turn right around and spit in America's face. Why should the US tolerate this any further?
How many foriegn students actually stay in this country and do work that benefits the US economy vs. those that go home and use the education provided by the US to help their own countries, possibly in ways contrary to US interests? |
I think you are falling for the same sort of massive stereotyping that people who assume all American's are dumb based on the one's they've met on holiday are falling for. Equating the action of a small minority as typical of everyone in a country.
Many of the people that I know that have got advanced degrees in the US would have liked to work in the US and the US companies are struggling to hire enough people, but the immigration policies force those same well educated people to go home and set up companies in competition. Particularly in the tech sector, the government policies are decimating the industry and forcing it ever faster overseas.
The US could certainly stop tolerating that and stop letting people in, but then you'll end up even further behind in the tech industry and I assume in other areas too. Depends how much you want your economy to suffer vs. how isolationist you want to be I suspect. Most of the people working in the US high tech industry aren't white or American, or even from here in the first place. Shutting the doors would be a good way to close it down even faster. |
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06/04/2008 04:08:13 PM · #63 |
Lets start with some humility and then continue on a train of respect. That would be a great way of showing gratitude.
Originally posted by Louis:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
What I find irritating is that we continue to give to people who are evidently incapable of showing gratitude. |
In a practical sense using real examples, and without using the word "not", how would you have nations show their gratitude for international aid? |
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06/04/2008 04:11:46 PM · #64 |
Actually I just got a nice raise today. And the first thing I said was thank you. Did I earn the raise well I think so and so does my employer. So why did I thank them for something they gave me that I earned. Its simple gratitude and respect. PS it's common curtesy in most cultures to thank the person giving. I believe it to be a show of poor character not to thank.
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I dunno, I was always taught to say thank you, but I also learned that if you give with the expectation of something in return it's not giving, it's trading... |
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06/04/2008 04:37:46 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
What is your sorce on this? Or is this just Imagined as a possibility? PLease seriously No more unsupported facts.
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Well, I have my own experience as a legal immigrant, working through the farcical twists and turns of immigration policy for myself and other employees. Then there are 10 years of working and trying to hire in the tech sector in the US as a starting point.
Also there's Bill Gates testimony to the Senate Committee on Health, Education, Labor and Pensions. Plus all of the other studies that state the same things, if you care to look for them. Then there are the rapidly falling numbers of US citizens taking up technical places at universities.
Originally posted by BillGates:
Second, we need to attract and retain the brightest, most talented people from
around the world. This will not happen until we reform our immigration
policies for highly skilled workers. America should be doing all it can to
attract the world̢۪s best and brightest. Instead, we are shutting them out and
discouraging those already here from staying and contributing to our
economic prosperity. |
You could also consider that there are several larger economies in the world than the US now. The balance has shifted.
Originally posted by BillGates:
Unfortunately, America̢۪s immigration policies are driving away the world̢۪s best and
brightest precisely when we need them most. I appreciate the vital national security goals
that motivate many of these policies. I am convinced, however, that we can protect our
national security in ways that do less damage to our competitiveness and prosperity.
Moreover, the terrible shortfall in our visa supply for the highly skilled stems not from
security concerns, but from visa policies that have not been updated in over a decade and
a half. We live in a different economy now. Simply put: It makes no sense to tell well-
trained, highly skilled individuals – many of whom are educated at our top colleges and
universities – that the United States does not welcome or value them. For too many
foreign students and professionals, however, our immigration policies send precisely this
message.
This should be deeply troubling to us, both in human terms and in terms of our own
economic self-interest. America will find it infinitely more difficult to maintain its
technological leadership if it shuts out the very people who are most able to help us
compete. Other nations are recognizing and benefiting from this situation. They are
crafting their immigration policies to attract highly talented students and professionals
who would otherwise study, live, and work here. Our lost opportunities are their gains.
I personally witness the ill effects of these policies on an almost daily basis at Microsoft.
Under the current system, the number of H1-B visas available runs out faster and faster
each year. The current base cap of 65,000 is arbitrarily set and bears no relation to U.S.
industry̢۪s demand for skilled professionals. For Fiscal Year 2007, the supply did not last
even eight weeks into the filing period, and ran out more than four months before that
fiscal year even began. |
His experience matches my own. It is very rare for me even to get the opportunity to interview a suitable candidate who is US born.
Message edited by author 2008-06-04 17:08:13. |
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06/04/2008 08:39:25 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I dunno, I was always taught to say thank you, but I also learned that if you give with the expectation of something in return it's not giving, it's trading... |
Sorry, I don't think expecting a "Thank You" counts as "trading". I don't waste my time giving gifts to those who don't appreciate them.
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06/04/2008 08:41:57 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
It's one of those basic things that even my 5 year old can grasp. When someone gives you something nice, you say "Thank You" and you mean it. |
Do you do that with your boss each month ? |
I do that with everyone.
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06/04/2008 10:19:38 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I dunno, I was always taught to say thank you, but I also learned that if you give with the expectation of something in return it's not giving, it's trading... |
Sorry, I don't think expecting a "Thank You" counts as "trading". I don't waste my time giving gifts to those who don't appreciate them. |
You might want to look at what most of the aid from the US is. The phrase 'tied aid' would be a good starting point. A lot of countries have moved away from doing that sort of conditional helping these days.
Typically the US aid is to further foreign policy objectives, with a lot of conditions attached (e.g., you can have this money, but you have to use it to buy milk formula from this company only, or only spend it on these goods, even if you can buy them much more cheaply elsewhere. |
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06/05/2008 06:40:27 AM · #69 |
I just think terrorism as a whole is cowardless. To kill thousands of innocent victims (Including mothers, fathers, husbands, wives, ect...), is heartless, despite what ethnicity or religion you are. Innocent victims are innocent victims know matter what country terrorists create havoc in. That was the point.
Sadly, terrorism is responsible for far far far far less innocent deaths than good'ol fashioned conventional warfare. I'm sure victims really don't care if the events that led to their demise was sanctioned via some foreign governments legislature.
Aid is nice...kinda like aspirin to cancer pains. tweaking everlasting Int property rights and patents would probably save more lives.
Prying open markets and flooding them with subsidized goods doesn't help much either... I remeber reading that European cows receive 2 dollars a day in subsidies...." In other words, your "better off being a cow in Europe than a poor person in a developing country." Helping countries develop their industry is what we should be doing rather than throwing aid while multi-nationals involved with campaign finance suck their resources dry... |
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06/06/2008 12:52:49 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Actually I just got a nice raise today. And the first thing I said was thank you. Did I earn the raise well I think so and so does my employer. So why did I thank them for something they gave me that I earned. Its simple gratitude and respect. PS it's common curtesy in most cultures to thank the person giving. I believe it to be a show of poor character not to thank.
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I dunno, I was always taught to say thank you, but I also learned that if you give with the expectation of something in return it's not giving, it's trading... |
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I can quite readily agree with you given the context you allude to.
However, given that in some instances, the school being rebuilt is a replacement for one which the donour destroyed in the first place, might have a bearing on the degree of appreciation being expressed by those affected. I am certain you can appreciate that thank you may not be the first words you would be apt to hear in such a scenario.
There is no denying that the USA is indeed generous and does provide a great deal of aid, but it is not the only country that provides helps in times of crisis. Close scrutiny of a great deal of the aid provided in the name of humanitarism is not all that altruistic.
Ray |
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06/06/2008 11:32:51 PM · #71 |
| Gordon, What are these "legal" imigration issues you had to overcome. In ten years what troubles did you have hiring into the tech sector here in the U.S.? There must be a reason for not staying in your country of birth. Maybe Just Maybe the freedoms and ability to achieve almost anything you put your mind and hard work into makes people want to come here. I promise you you will not find that in many other places on earth. I personally like being able to choose who I want insurance and medical services through instead of a buracracy like most govenments are telling me what they have decided for me. I personally don't like paying for anyone elses life beyond my family. I personally like taking responsibility for my actions and choosing where I want to go with my life. At least this way I have only one person to blame. And that is me if things don't go well. BTW you hear about rising health care cost in this nation, well our company just had a rate decrease in our premiums. Yeah it was a first for us, but by promoting family values and caring for our employees they have been less sick. thus less stress thus less premiums to cause the cost of health care to go up. |
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06/06/2008 11:44:18 PM · #72 |
Hey Ray its simple freedom does have a cost. We do not live in a perfect world Even Karl Marx knew this.
Soldiers and civilians will die so we can have this debate. Schools and Churches will crumble from war so as long as some one decides things need to change. Peace is and will never be possible, but at least with democracy we get to have some say in where and how things are done. It is a valuable goal but as long as man made religions(not beliefs) keep throwing fuel on the fire then it will keep burning. I too (beleive it or not) wish no one went hungry no one ever died everyone had everything their heart desired, but that is not reality. So some time people have to wake up, do whats best to make things right in this world. Protect their rights without infringing on someone elses and Take responsibility for their own actions. No more welfare.
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by coronamv:
Actually I just got a nice raise today. And the first thing I said was thank you. Did I earn the raise well I think so and so does my employer. So why did I thank them for something they gave me that I earned. Its simple gratitude and respect. PS it's common curtesy in most cultures to thank the person giving. I believe it to be a show of poor character not to thank.
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I dunno, I was always taught to say thank you, but I also learned that if you give with the expectation of something in return it's not giving, it's trading... |
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I can quite readily agree with you given the context you allude to.
However, given that in some instances, the school being rebuilt is a replacement for one which the donour destroyed in the first place, might have a bearing on the degree of appreciation being expressed by those affected. I am certain you can appreciate that thank you may not be the first words you would be apt to hear in such a scenario.
There is no denying that the USA is indeed generous and does provide a great deal of aid, but it is not the only country that provides helps in times of crisis. Close scrutiny of a great deal of the aid provided in the name of humanitarism is not all that altruistic.
Ray |
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06/09/2008 01:34:13 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
... So some time people have to wake up, do whats best to make things right in this world. Protect their rights without infringing on someone elses and Take responsibility for their own actions. |
I fully agree with you... but what you seemingly fail to comprehend is that it is directly due to US interventions that some of these regimes surface and terrorism flourishes.
Do take the time to peruse the contents of some history books and gain an appreciation that several of the regimes that have cause the greatest of problems on the international scene were at one time or another the product of US intervention... People such as Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden to name but two.
Ray |
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06/09/2008 03:03:53 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by coronamv:
...I personally don't like paying for anyone elses life beyond my family. I personally like taking responsibility for my actions and choosing where I want to go with my life... |
Originally posted by coronamv:
Hey Ray its simple freedom does have a cost. We do not live in a perfect world Even Karl Marx knew this.Soldiers and civilians will die so we can have this debate... |
Interesting...our soldiers can give their lives for your family's freedom. But you don't want to give a dime to help them or their family. |
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06/09/2008 03:20:34 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by coronamv:
... So some time people have to wake up, do whats best to make things right in this world. Protect their rights without infringing on someone elses and Take responsibility for their own actions. |
I fully agree with you... but what you seemingly fail to comprehend is that it is directly due to US interventions that some of these regimes surface and terrorism flourishes.
Do take the time to peruse the contents of some history books and gain an appreciation that several of the regimes that have cause the greatest of problems on the international scene were at one time or another the product of US intervention... People such as Saddam Hussein and Osama Bin Laden to name but two.
Ray |
Hmmmm, I agree, to some extent, about Osama, but for Saddam, I'd say the British need to have their fair share of the blame since they are the ones responsible for creating Iraq in the first place out of the territories of various factions historically hostile to each other. |
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