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05/29/2008 02:11:15 PM · #26 |
| Perhaps it was titled "Glory" because our flag is known as Old Glory?? That would explain it to me... |
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05/29/2008 04:28:35 PM · #27 |
I pledge allegiance,
to the flag,
of the United States of America
and to the Republic,
for which is stands,
One nation,
under God,
indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all
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05/29/2008 06:01:22 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by goldenhawkofky:
I pledge allegiance,
to the flag,
of the United States of America
and to the Republic,
for which is stands,
One nation,
under God,
indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all |
I prefer the original version myself.
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. |
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05/29/2008 06:16:54 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by goldenhawkofky:
I pledge allegiance,
to the flag,
of the United States of America
and to the Republic,
for which is stands,
One nation,
under God,
indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all |
On a daily basis my students are made to recite this in unison and I'm fortunate to not usually have students in my room at that point. When they are I either stand by in silence or go quietly about my work as an example to my students that being free includes being free from saying things like pledging to a flag. I also refuse to say the pledge because I believe it is unethical for government employees to lead a captive audience of children in such a mindless statement of belief about politics and religion.
Of course I understand that it's 'optional' for students to participate (although the kids are told by adults to stand and say the pledge rather than asked to participate if they wish). So we have option 1: Participate in the pledge as the adults told you to do; Or option 2: Be ostracised and probably bullied for not saying the pledge (and the adults don't bother explaining that this option even exists). 10 year old kids, some of whom are atheists, agnostics, and Jehovah's Witnesses, should not be put in that position. Call me unpatriotic for it, but I think exercising the freedom to not pledge to a flag is extremely patriotic.
Having said that, I still think it's unfortunate if people vote a flag shot up or down just based on politics rather than it's photographic merits, but I'm not surprised. |
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05/29/2008 06:59:09 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by JMart:
Originally posted by goldenhawkofky:
I pledge allegiance,
to the flag,
of the United States of America
and to the Republic,
for which is stands,
One nation,
under God,
indivisible,
with Liberty and Justice for all |
On a daily basis my students are made to recite this in unison and I'm fortunate to not usually have students in my room at that point. When they are I either stand by in silence or go quietly about my work as an example to my students that being free includes being free from saying things like pledging to a flag. I also refuse to say the pledge because I believe it is unethical for government employees to lead a captive audience of children in such a mindless statement of belief about politics and religion.
Of course I understand that it's 'optional' for students to participate (although the kids are told by adults to stand and say the pledge rather than asked to participate if they wish). So we have option 1: Participate in the pledge as the adults told you to do; Or option 2: Be ostracised and probably bullied for not saying the pledge (and the adults don't bother explaining that this option even exists). 10 year old kids, some of whom are atheists, agnostics, and Jehovah's Witnesses, should not be put in that position. Call me unpatriotic for it, but I think exercising the freedom to not pledge to a flag is extremely patriotic.
Having said that, I still think it's unfortunate if people vote a flag shot up or down just based on politics rather than it's photographic merits, but I'm not surprised. |
I agree with everything you've said. I just don't think the OP should have been surprised by the reaction. I also think "photographic merits" include the interest of the subject matter. |
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05/29/2008 07:12:23 PM · #31 |
It is similar around here at the start of races when 'everyone' sings the US national anthem. I get dirty looks and glances for not standing with my hand on my heart, singing along. I'm not talking, I'm just standing, not singing, without my hand over my heart.
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05/29/2008 09:01:46 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I agree with everything you've said. I just don't think the OP should have been surprised by the reaction. I also think "photographic merits" include the interest of the subject matter. |
Certainly that's true. The thing that seems unfortunate (but not unexpected) IMHO is scoring a 1 based on the subject without taking other elements into consideration. The colors and sharpness of kleski's shot should be enough to not merit ten 1s. Perhaps there are several people who don't know the US flag is often referred to as "old glory" and considered this a DNMC, but even so, a 1? Not surprising to see at all, but it still smacks of an unfortunate punitive political scoring. |
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05/29/2008 10:35:03 PM · #33 |
I had a picture that got 16 1's and 2's because it had fake blood. People vote down things they don't like, things that disturb them, things they are phobic about, things they're tired of. Flags aren't exempt.
Message edited by author 2008-05-29 22:39:07. |
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05/29/2008 11:21:47 PM · #34 |
That pledge of allegiance. Yeah, we had that in the states when I was growing up, but I think it stopped in the 4th grade. Later on when I was a "parkie" in NYC I had to take over a preschool for 2 hours each morning, I quietly ran through most of their routine omitting the pledge, but the four and five year olds just as gently insisted on it. (I didn't argue). The force of indoctrination.
Maybe if flags had the purpose they once had - fighting banners, boldly announcing the charge - we would be more excited and more honest if politically incorrect.
Canada's flag is curious, and sometimes mistaken for a weed.
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05/29/2008 11:28:43 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by JMart:
On a daily basis my students are made to recite this in unison and I'm fortunate to not usually have students in my room at that point. When they are I either stand by in silence or go quietly about my work as an example to my students that being free includes being free from saying things like pledging to a flag. I also refuse to say the pledge because I believe it is unethical for government employees to lead a captive audience of children in such a mindless statement of belief about politics and religion.
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June 14th will mark the 65th anniversary of the Supreme Court ruling that decided that students may not be forced to participate in any flag salute. WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE, 319 U.S. 624 (1943) |
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05/30/2008 01:25:28 AM · #36 |
Originally posted by tnun:
Maybe if flags had the purpose they once had - fighting banners, boldly announcing the charge - we would be more excited and more honest if politically incorrect.
Canada's flag is curious, and sometimes mistaken for a weed. |
Hey, I think it's kinda purdy!
A weed.... obvious you're from BC ;) |
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05/30/2008 09:00:30 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I pledge allegiance to the flag... why am I pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth? Where is the humanity of a flag? What are the ideas of a flag?
If you put up a picture of a U.S. flag and call it "Glory", you are not representing the U.S. You are representing U.S. patriotism, which is bound to get a negative reaction from people who might not see the U.S. as a Godsend to the rest of the world, as we are told to think about ourselves. |
I certainly understand the rest of the world is not in love with us but does no one consider that we are the first nation that could and hasn't tried to take over the entire world? Do they not consider the incredible amount of aid we deliver to the rest of the world? Are we right all the time? of course not but I believe that our government tries to do what is right both for our citizens and the rest of the world and yes we fall woefully short of saint hood as a nation but I think we do better than any other nation ever has in the history of the world. Who has done more for the world than the United States in making this a better world to live in? I'm sure I'll get many replies to this and I look forward to everyones reaction. |
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05/30/2008 09:46:29 AM · #38 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I pledge allegiance to the flag... why am I pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth? Where is the humanity of a flag? What are the ideas of a flag? |
You aren't. You're pledging allegiance to what the flag represents. Just like those the word "flowerpot" isn't really a flowerpot that you can plant flowers in, rather it represents the idea of a flowerpot.
Originally posted by posthumous:
If you put up a picture of a U.S. flag and call it "Glory", you are not representing the U.S. You are representing U.S. patriotism, which is bound to get a negative reaction from people who might not see the U.S. as a Godsend to the rest of the world, as we are told to think about ourselves. |
If I put up ANY picture, it's subject to the individual viewer's interpretation. The U.S. Flag may represent US patriotism to you and some other people, but certainly not to everyone and I'd think that you, of all people, would understand that.
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05/30/2008 09:50:22 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
... I think we do better than any other nation ever has in the history of the world. Who has done more for the world than the United States in making this a better world to live in? |
no problem with your opinion, all i want to see i some proof for your statements ... and the word "bad" is missing from above sentences on some specific places 
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05/30/2008 09:56:21 AM · #40 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
I certainly understand the rest of the world is not in love with us but does no one consider that we are the first nation that could and hasn't tried to take over the entire world? Do they not consider the incredible amount of aid we deliver to the rest of the world? Are we right all the time? of course not but I believe that our government tries to do what is right both for our citizens and the rest of the world and yes we fall woefully short of saint hood as a nation but I think we do better than any other nation ever has in the history of the world. Who has done more for the world than the United States in making this a better world to live in? I'm sure I'll get many replies to this and I look forward to everyones reaction. |
"The road it hell is often paved with good intentions"... there are often two side to every coin, and certainly this is the case with the USA. you are right the States have sent out lots of aid... but then again with it's foreigh policy (not not just Bush's) it has also been the cause of much suffering. |
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05/30/2008 08:26:29 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by garrywhite2:
Originally posted by JMart:
On a daily basis my students are made to recite this in unison and I'm fortunate to not usually have students in my room at that point. When they are I either stand by in silence or go quietly about my work as an example to my students that being free includes being free from saying things like pledging to a flag. I also refuse to say the pledge because I believe it is unethical for government employees to lead a captive audience of children in such a mindless statement of belief about politics and religion.
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June 14th will mark the 65th anniversary of the Supreme Court ruling that decided that students may not be forced to participate in any flag salute. WEST VIRGINIA STATE BOARD OF EDUCATION v. BARNETTE, 319 U.S. 624 (1943)
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Yes, I'm aware of that ruling. The Barnette decision mainly dealt with the case on a freedom of speech basis to say basically, "The law can not force this student to pledge". It did not directly address the question of whether it is constitutional for government agents to lead public school children in the pledge.
My favorite quote from the decision in that case does address that question, but is not binding since it wasn't the question before the court on that occasion (Justice Jackson I believe): "If there is any fixed star in our constitutional constellation, it is that no official, high or petty, can prescribe what shall be orthodox in politics, nationalism, religion, or other matters of opinion or force citizens to confess by word or act their faith therein. If there are any circumstances which permit an exception, they do not now occur to us."
That case also came 12 years before 'UNDER GOD' was added by congress in an effort to distinguish between the US being godly and the Soviets being atheists (this is VERY well spelled out in the congressional record). Perhaps I'm just radical, but it feels like schools are violating the spirit of what the justices wrote in the Barnette decision by leading kids to recite the pledge, and congress adding "under God" to the pledge just made it so we are coercing kids about religion too.
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05/30/2008 10:44:48 PM · #42 |
Originally posted by Jammur:
For the record, this is a poster for the actual movie:
[thumb]683335[/thumb]
Although the OP image doesn't have the dramatic effects of the battle scene, it seems was a reasonable interpretation of the movie, at least that's what the producers thought. |
Maybe I'm a bit thick, but I don't see the connection. The poster is of soldiers charging, carrying a flag. Very different to a flag by itself.
Originally posted by Chinabun:
I agree. The comments about why people post flags IMO are dumb; just like babies, bugs, water, etc. They will be repeated. The challenge was movie titles. If there is a movie titled Glory and he thinks of the US flag as being Glorious then who cares! |
Yes, but as Ansel Adams said, there are at least two people in every photograph: the photographer and the viewer (emphasis added). It's quite valid for the photographer to view the US flag as being glorious - but it is equally valid for the viewer to disagree.
If someone disagrees (and, in DPC votes the image down), it doesn't necessarily mean that they are America-haters or US-flag-haters, it might simply mean that they don't think the image is a particularly good one or convey the subject well.
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by paddles:
The photo used to start this thread looks like a pretty ordinary flag photo to me; it doesn't show any significant artistic creativity (some of the flag photos here have, but not many) and doesn't illustrate "Glory" to me. |
When I do shoot a flag, I try to have it convey something other than just national identity ... whether or not the interpretations are "artistic" is an open question ... ;-)
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Personally, I think the first and third of these are far more artistic.
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05/31/2008 10:56:23 AM · #43 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
I pledge allegiance to the flag... why am I pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth? Where is the humanity of a flag? What are the ideas of a flag? |
You aren't. You're pledging allegiance to what the flag represents. Just like those the word "flowerpot" isn't really a flowerpot that you can plant flowers in, rather it represents the idea of a flowerpot. |
No, it says to pledge allegiance to the flag *AND* the republic for which it stands. Both the symbol and what it symbolizes. It's like an explicit call for idol worship. And then as someone mentioned they added a test for atheism. I find the whole thing distasteful. |
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05/31/2008 11:06:04 AM · #44 |
Originally posted by Jammur:
For the record, this is a poster for the actual movie:
[thumb]683335[/thumb]
Although the OP image doesn't have the dramatic effects of the battle scene, it seems was a reasonable interpretation of the movie, at least that's what the producers thought. |
Originally posted by TCGuru:
Perhaps it was titled "Glory" because our flag is known as Old Glory?? That would explain it to me... |
Ok, since it appears that nobody has actually seen this movie (surprisingly, because its very good, and has a great cast including Matthew Broderick, Morgan Freeman, and Denzel Washington), let's just clear up the question of "How does this meet the challenge?".
"Glory" is a movie about the US Civil War, a war which played a very large role in the making of the flag we have today. I think the flag fits perfectly.
Its sad that no one bothered to actually look up the movie before they started bad-mouthing the photo.
In regards to the political comments and such, I understand that the world currently has a fairly low opinion of America. We're not exactly thrilled with our government either. The media depicts a pretty dirty picture; That's their job. Bad news sells news. What the media portrays is not necessarily an accurate depiction of the truth, and its certainly not an accurate depiction of the American people as a whole.
People in other countries (and even people in our own) see our flag and get offended. Its like you take our flag as a sign of us saying "We're so much better than you". The fact is, that isn't what our flag is supposed to mean. To Americans, the flag is what unites us. The flag reminds us of the sacrifices that have been made over countless years to get and keep this country together. The flag reminds us that even if things are bad now, with the government and the economy and this 'war', that we can and will overcome. It inspires us to pull together and work to change things for the better. That flag doesn't fly for anyone but us; It is our symbol and our reminder and our strength. When things are going well, it makes us proud. When our government fails us, it reminds us we have the strength and power to change things. If your country's flag means nothing to you, that's your business, but that doesn't make it wrong for other people to feel the opposite way.
In regards to the 'war' in Iraq, most all of us are against the war and have been against it from the beginning. Little did we realize we'd have a government that would decide it didn't give two shits what the people thought about it. But the fact is, our soldiers (our family, our friends...) are over there, and are trying to repair the mess our government created. We would love to see them all come home today, but in reality, we need to clean up the mess that was made. The country was destroyed, partly from its own government and partly from ours. The Iraqi people have been through so much, and deserve help in putting their country back together, so they can have lives again. And just because you don't see it on the media doesn't mean that's not what we're doing. Talk to a soldier. Do some research. Don't believe everything our corrupt media and government tell you. |
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05/31/2008 11:09:09 AM · #45 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
I prefer the original version myself.
I pledge allegiance to my Flag and the Republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all. |
Agreed. I much prefer that version above what its become. |
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05/31/2008 11:31:49 AM · #46 |
For those who think it's "wrong" to "indoctrinate" children by requiring them to pledge allegiance to our country, and without further comment pro or con, I offer up the Oath of Citizenship, which all naturalized citizens of this country are required to pledge:
The Oath of Citizenship
I hereby declare, on oath, that I absolutely and entirely renounce and abjure all allegiance and fidelity to any foreign prince, potentate, state, or sovereignty of whom or which I have heretofore been a subject or citizen; that I will support and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States of America against all enemies, foreign and domestic; that I will bear true faith and allegiance to the same; that I will bear arms on behalf of the United States when required by law; that I will perform noncombatant service in the Armed Forces of the United States when required by the law; that I will perform work of national importance under civilian direction when required by the law; and that I take this obligation freely without any mental reservation or purpose of evasion; so help me God. In acknowledgement whereof I have hereunto affixed my signature.
R.
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05/31/2008 11:47:28 AM · #47 |
To take the Oath of Citizenship, you must be a responsible, competent adult -- the law does not recognize either condition to exist in the case of children. Can a fourth-grader enter into a contract to buy a car? Buy a house? Agree to perform services in exchange for a fee?
How can you expect a child who doesn't understand the concepts of "allegience," "state," "republic," or "nation" (I know, I've asked) to enter into a contract which pledges them to defend -- possibly with their lives -- something they can't understand and are not legally allowed to participate in.
To require rote repetiton of a phrase beyond the intellectual capacity of the reciter to truly understand it is the very definition of indoctrination, or "brainwashing" as we refer to it when our "enemies" practice it. |
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05/31/2008 11:59:07 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
To take the Oath of Citizenship, you must be a responsible, competent adult -- the law does not recognize either condition to exist in the case of children. Can a fourth-grader enter into a contract to buy a car? Buy a house? Agree to perform services in exchange for a fee?
How can you expect a child who doesn't understand the concepts of "allegience," "state," "republic," or "nation" (I know, I've asked) to enter into a contract which pledges them to defend -- possibly with their lives -- something they can't understand and are not legally allowed to participate in.
To require rote repetiton of a phrase beyond the intellectual capacity of the reciter to truly understand it is the very definition of indoctrination, or "brainwashing" as we refer to it when our "enemies" practice it. |
I don't disagree with you, actually. There's something more than a little pathetic going on when rooms full of 8-yr-old robots parrot lines like that, I completely agree.
But completely aside from that (the age issue), where do we stand on the obligation of citizens to pledge loyalty to their state? You cannot become a naturalized citizen of the USA without doing so; I'd assume the same is true of most states, surely? Is this reasonable? And on the broader canvas, is it reasonable of "us" to expect "our" citizens to be loyal to the state?
If the answer is yes, then when should we start teaching this issue of loyalty, or perhaps more precisely the issue of what responsibilities a citizen of a state has TO that state, as an entity? Is this something that we, in the USA, do well? Poorly? Not at all?
R.
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05/31/2008 02:27:30 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
I pledge allegiance to the flag... why am I pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth? Where is the humanity of a flag? What are the ideas of a flag? |
You aren't. You're pledging allegiance to what the flag represents. Just like those the word "flowerpot" isn't really a flowerpot that you can plant flowers in, rather it represents the idea of a flowerpot. |
No, it says to pledge allegiance to the flag *AND* the republic for which it stands. Both the symbol and what it symbolizes. It's like an explicit call for idol worship. And then as someone mentioned they added a test for atheism. I find the whole thing distasteful. |
A literalist poet hmm?
Luckily for you, the the country represented by the pledge you despise won't force you to recite it with a gun to your head.
Message edited by author 2008-05-31 17:44:19.
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05/31/2008 03:46:35 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by posthumous:
I pledge allegiance to the flag... why am I pledging allegiance to a piece of cloth? Where is the humanity of a flag? What are the ideas of a flag? |
You aren't. You're pledging allegiance to what the flag represents. Just like those the word "flowerpot" isn't really a flowerpot that you can plant flowers in, rather it represents the idea of a flowerpot. |
No, it says to pledge allegiance to the flag *AND* the republic for which it stands. Both the symbol and what it symbolizes. It's like an explicit call for idol worship. And then as someone mentioned they added a test for atheism. I find the whole thing distasteful. |
Luckily for you, the the country represented by the pledge you despise won't force you to recite it with a gun to your head. |
Actually, that's not a matter of luck. That circumstance was brought to us by some very wise & well educated people, going back to the authors of great documents like the Magna Carta, the Declaration of Independence, and the US constitution, along with countless brave people who fought and died to institute and maintain a society based on the principles contained within those documents.
That's why I have a right, and for me it's a responsibility, to not recite the Pledge of Allegiance just because a government official says to do it. In fact, in my role as a public school teacher I believe I am supporting the US Constitution by not taking part in an activity that violates the spirit of the constitution IMHO. |
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