People getting nasty with photographers

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/26/2008 11:34:03 PM · #26

Oh you all know I was going to jump into this one. As a mother, if some man was photographing my kids, I would be asking him point blank what he was up to. I think in this day and age you will find that women will be able to photograph kids more than men as there is such a stigma with men with cameras.

Look at it this way, you are taking a shot of a kid on the playground adn they show their knickers and someone sees you photographing that (intended or not), what is the first thing that pops into your mind.

Trust me, when I say that if i asked you to stop and you didnt, there would be serious trouble for me.

The job makes me paranoid too

Message edited by author 2008-05-26 23:34:45.

togtog

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

05/27/2008 12:09:26 AM · #27

JulietNN, no offense but are you ashamed of your kids? If not then what is your concern about photographs of them if they are out in public? Are you concerned about people looking at your children if they do not have cameras? What about security cameras being watched by strangers?

Again, I mean absolutely no offense. I am trying to understand.

garrywhite2

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

05/27/2008 01:40:23 AM · #28

Read a few photographer proposals submitted to little leagues. The ones that seek exclusivity catch my interest the most. The agressive ones seem to like to play to the parents fear that there's a pedophile behind every camera. Sometimes we are our own enemy.

Refracted

Canon EOS-50D

Canon EF 400mm f/5.6L USM

05/27/2008 02:22:04 AM · #29

My little story:

I went to my friend's house down the road to photograph some flowers and such with my new macro lens (my 'apartment' is devoid of flowers unfortunately). I was walking back, with my camera mounted on my tripod, my tripod slung over my shoulder (camera would then be facing behind me) as i walked. An older man (70's ish?) was walking in the opposite direction as me, and as we're about 10 feet away, he blurts out "If you take my picture i'll break your camera!". Other than the acrobatic feat i'd have to do to manage to take his picture before he was gone, it's comments like these that discourage me from even bothering trying to go out in public with my camera.

Now, there seems to be one small exception to this.. Many of my friends play sports, and bringing a fancy camera to a sports game (ultimate frisbee, soccer, etc) seems to be just fine, and most people want to see if you got them doing anything 'cool'.

But outside of sports, unless i'm out in the woods taking pictures of birds (which is my other main focus with photography - birds cant punch my camera!), i keep my camera safely tucked in my camera bag, for fear of getting assaulted!

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/27/2008 02:24:59 AM · #30

Originally posted by JulietNN:

Look at it this way, you are taking a shot of a kid on the playground adn they show their knickers and someone sees you photographing that (intended or not), what is the first thing that pops into your mind.

That the kid is inappropriately dressed for vigorous play in the park?

Honestly, if you don't want someone photographing your daughter's knickers, maybe arrange for them not to show in public.

It may not be legal to reproduce or distribute some photos, but it is legal to take pictures in public places. If you really want to get upset, how about the corporate and governement surveillance camera, which are recording our photos something like 2-300 times per day, and tracking our movements ...

Now personally, I'd stop if it bothered someone, but I'd let them know that it's out of courtesy and not for any legal reason.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/27/2008 02:31:16 AM · #31

Originally posted by Refracted:

If you'd had a cable release attached, you'd have been in perfect position to take his picture just as he went past ...

Originally posted by Refracted:

... birds cant punch my camera!) ...

Woodpecker vs $1400 lens -- you make the call ... ;-)

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/27/2008 02:53:39 AM · #32

Originally posted by citymars:

I had my camera out down by a small park on the Hudson river. I sat down near where a man was fishing. Shortly after a woman and child (his family) joined him. The kid was really cute, excited to be there. I was smiling at them. The man calls over to me "Don't take pictures of my kid." I wasn't even using the camera! But he saw the camera and got all weird. I said "I wasn't intending to." He said "I don't care what your intentions are, I'm just telling you."

Freakin' people. :-/

That's when you let him know he's #1.

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/27/2008 02:57:00 AM · #33

Originally posted by JulietNN:

Yeah, nothin' like a shootout at the park.

Mick

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 70-200mm f/2.8L IS USM

05/27/2008 03:20:46 AM · #34

Originally posted by Refracted:

You should have flipped out your wallet and said, "I'm an off duty police officer. You're under arrest for assault. Turn around and put your hands on your head."

Make sure you're ready to perform CPR and call an ambulance when his heart stops.

:)

SoulMan1978

Sony Alpha a55

Sony DT 18-70mm f/3.5-5.6 Aspherical ED Zoom Lens for Sony Alpha

05/27/2008 03:45:05 AM · #35

Originally posted by togtog:

Maybe photography is just a dying hobby, we can all just switch to knitting...

I can just imagine us having competitions as to who can knit the best sweater, with a perfect woollen rendition of the northern lights ;-)

Straying back to the topic, I've long decided that, if I'm shooting outside, I'll put my camera away whenever I see kids around.

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/27/2008 09:41:22 AM · #36

Okay I will let you deal with the real world for a moment here. I deal with pedophiles pretty much every day. Here is what it is like in the real world.

A pedophile (from now on known as P) will have a plan. This plan is well thought out and usually written down and followed to a T.

It starts like this. Usually, it is just starts out as a fantasies, then they go to graphic, then they go to videos, then the urge is too much and they go to Game A. Usually, game a,b,and c are botched attempts.

P's will go to places that are public and watch and learn. Then they will go with a camera and take pictures, they will find the children that can have their picture taken and no one knows about it because no one is bothered. Then they will take pictures and get closer and closer, just to see if the parents do anything. Some will , some wont. If the parent is completely oblivious , they store that knowledge away.

Then comes the big plan. they have observer that the parents or child minders etc are not at full attention when their kids are at the park, there are too many distractions, there is a lot of kids screaming and running around.

With all that noise and screaming and laughing and kids running around, the P just simply takes that child by the hand and walks away. It can be 5 mins up to 1/2 hour before anyone notices. By that time it is too late.

I have worked 5 playground abductions, 4 from 'I have puppies' and 2 'Your Mum sent me to pick you up'.

Yes , I could be totally paranoid, but when you have held a broken sexually abused 3 year old in your hands, then you can have the balls to tell me I am wrong

I can understand what you are saying, but as I stated earlier, in this day and age, it is difficult NOT to jump to conclusions when it comes to our kids, it is this day and age. Also as i stated, If the person would not stop takign pictures or not answer my questions, then I would do something, and no there would not be a shoot out at the park. I am nto ashamed of my kids at all adn they are dressed properly when they go out, but look around, not everyone does. Playgrounds are a "P"s paridise.

Yo_Spiff

Olympus OM-D E-M5 Mark III

Olympus 12-100mm f/4.0 M.Zuiko ED IS PRO

05/27/2008 09:56:32 AM · #37

I agree with what Juliet says as to the reasoning behind such behavior. I understand completely. I wasn't taking pictures of 3 year olds at a playground, however. I was taking pictures of jetskis on the lake, and from halfway across the lake, how the heck could I tell what age the people were? I can't see any potential for kiddie p0rn in that, plus she could have dropped the nastiness when I was upfront and immediately identified myself, giving her info she could check.

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/27/2008 10:01:42 AM · #38

oh I totally agree with you Yospiff, I think that she was out of order. For all she knew, you could have been takign a picture of the landscape.

There is NEVER a need to be nasty to anyone taking pictures. Asking someone nicely, hey whatcha shooting, and trust me 9/10 you will get every single detail and technical detail that the photographer can give you.

I think you just got a mean person yospiff, she was out of order

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

05/27/2008 10:13:16 AM · #39

I went to a playground one time to get some shots. There was a little girl with her uncle there. The uncle was sitting in one corner, talking on his cell phone, and the little girl was playing by herself.

She saw me taking pictures and came over and started talking to me (she was around 4,). I told her I was taking pictures, and went to another part of the playground. She followed me. I went to another, she followed me again. This went on for several minutes until I got tired of trying to avoid her and left.

Either a)the uncle decided I was a "no-risk" or b)he didn't seem to notice me at all. If the latter, that is kinda scary and sad.

As to the situation Juliet described, I watch my kids (6 and 3) very closely at the playground/park -- even though I may be several feet away (and a lot of times, I am taking pictures as well). In all honesty, if someone (male or female) seemed to be taking pictures of my kids, I would probably approach them and ask why. I would ask nicely, but I would want to know.

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

05/27/2008 10:15:09 AM · #40

Originally posted by karmat:

In all honesty, if someone (male or female) seemed to be taking pictures of my kids, I would probably approach them and ask why. I would ask nicely, but I would want to know.

I'd probably take some pictures of them taking pictures too ...

Spork99

OM System OM-1

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

05/27/2008 10:34:41 AM · #41

Originally posted by JulietNN:

It depends on how you ask someone with a camera what they're doing.

Most civilized parents would simply ask the person with the camera what they're doing. That alone lets them know they have come under scrutiny.

Unfortunately, many parents freak out and get hostile right from the beginning.

If someone gets hostile with me, they can expect me to respond in-kind. I won't be chased out of public places by overreacting helicopter parents.

Again, if you don't want your kids to be photographed, keep them under wraps.

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/27/2008 10:42:19 AM · #42

Originally posted by JulietNN:

There is NEVER a need to be nasty to anyone taking pictures. Asking someone nicely, hey whatcha shooting, and trust me 9/10 you will get every single detail and technical detail that the photographer can give you.

all ready stated that 3 times

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

05/27/2008 10:49:01 AM · #43

Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by karmat:
In all honesty, if someone (male or female) seemed to be taking pictures of my kids, I would probably approach them and ask why. I would ask nicely, but I would want to know.

I'd probably take some pictures of them taking pictures too ...

yep, and make it obvious that I am taking their pictures. :)

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/27/2008 10:54:28 AM · #44

lol, I can see teh photo war now as you both approach each other, lens out till you are nose to nose

togtog

Nikon D300

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

05/27/2008 11:09:17 AM · #45

Thank you Juliet for explaining where your worries are coming from and they seem justified. A few things bother me about what you said though; It seems to me that the specific problem is not cameras in your case, but rather pedophiles hanging out near parks and such.

It would seem if a pedophile were to take pictures in such cases they would want to be as covert as possible, not carrying around an SLR and bag of lenses or a tripod, etc. Even so it would seem that such a person could just memorize things going on and not even need a camera at all.

*quick side-track for yospiff, just a thought, maybe they were part of a witness protection and worried their sons picture would end up in a news paper innocently. Not saying it justifies it, they should have politely explained if it was any such case. *

Something else troubling, and I'm not trying to push any blame, but you mention kids being led away from a park because of all the noise and such. It honestly is up to a child's parents or guardians to keep an eye on them, what if they trip and fall, or just wander off?

Again I'm not trying to shift any blame, I just think maybe the solution to run every single man out of every public park to not only be a false sense of security but also very rude. If you wouldn't want someone harassing your child then why is it right to harass an adult without any proof of wrong doing?

That said, I do believe it to be alright to approach a photographer and politely ask what they are doing, I've been approached a few times and am happy to explain what I am photographing, if the person is polite about it. However what bothers me in all of the cases mentioned, the concerned adults have seemed almost on the verge of assault towards the photographer.

I cannot imagine any photographer wishing to "defend" them self for something innocent any more than a parent would want to be verbally assaulted for dressing their child like some hooker.

I think I misread something also Juliet, you said "Trust me, when I say that if i asked you to stop and you didnt, there would be serious trouble for me." did you mean "for me" or "for you"? I read it as the latter and it came off threatening, I imagined some angry lady yelling at me and waving their arms as they tried to get my camera away from me. I sometimes have an over-active imagination.

The outcome of the latter would not turn out well for either party, no one has the right to harass, accuse, threaten, or even demand answers from another person who is not breaking any laws.

That is what really bothers me. I'm a photographer, I have chosen this as my only hobby and one I do enjoy, sometimes I just take pictures of rocks, I love the feel of the camera and the sound, I find it energizing. However other people think it shouldn't be my right to use one, or that I need to stay indoors with it, etc.

I'm sorry but I just cannot settle for that. I also will not settle for being treated with suspicion over performing my hobby in public places.

I have no problem with people politely asking what I'm doing or even watching over my shoulder if they ask politely first.

So assuming someone comes up to me and asks politely what I am taking pictures of and if they can see. What do you believe would help the process turn out as a positive one? My camera has a burst mode as do many cameras, what if I do have a picture of some kids knickers somewhere in there as they jump off something or fall over in the sand or something.

And assuming someone comes up to me and is not polite in the least and threatens to call the police, how should a photographer defuse such a situation.

Thank you for being honest and explaining yourself Juliet. :)

Message edited by author 2008-05-27 11:11:09.

toddhead

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L II

05/27/2008 11:37:51 AM · #46

Originally posted by togtog:

I don't think you can truly understand the concerns of a parent until you are one. I take pictures of kids all the time at my daughter's school events, but when I'm in a public place I don't take pictures of anyone's children. If someone was taking a picture of one of my daughters in a public place you better believe I would find out why... in a civilized manner of course.

Having a child changes everything about the way you look at life. It amplifies your typical emotions to levels you never knew existed. If you thought you were protective of something in the past, have a child... you won't believe how protective you can be.

citymars

Nikon D700

Nikon AF-S NIKKOR 24-70mm f/2.8G ED

05/27/2008 12:10:38 PM · #47

Originally posted by toddhead:

I don't think you can truly understand the concerns of a parent until you are one.

I'm sure that's true.

Tamron 16-300mm Di II VC PZD MACRO w/Canon Nikon mount

05/27/2008 12:20:18 PM · #48

I think I misread something also Juliet, you said "Trust me, when I say that if i asked you to stop and you didnt, there would be serious trouble for me." did you mean "for me" or "for you"? I read it as the latter and it came off threatening, I imagined some angry lady yelling at me and waving their arms as they tried to get my camera away from me. I sometimes have an over-active imagination.

The outcome of the latter would not turn out well for either party, no one has the right to harass, accuse, threaten, or even demand answers from another person who is not breaking any laws.I understand what you mean when you said about it seeming threatening. [i][/i]

If someone was taking pictures of my children at a playground and I ambled up and said "Hey whatcha shooting?" and got no reply, I would try again, and ask again. I would not be aggressive or hostile or downright rude, that is not who I am.

If I have to ask again and again and the person is still taking shots of my child and refusing to stop, then I would get upset.

The most likely scene I would cause, was to say loudly, you are taking photographs of my children without perrmission. If that did not deter them, then I would shout it out loud and yell at the other parents that this person is taking photographs of kids. Then I woudl call the cops. I don't care if this person is legit or not. If they offer NO explanation, even if it is for their Rights as a Photographer, they are in the wrong, morally, they may not be wrong legally, but at that point, I would feel that uncomfortable, that I would do this

I would never touch a person or take something from them, that would be wrong for starters and that is not me, and secondly, I could lose my license.

It would seem if a pedophile were to take pictures in such cases they would want to be as covert as possible, not carrying around an SLR and bag of lenses or a tripod, etc. Even so it would seem that such a person could just memorize things going on and not even need a camera at all.

As for the next case in point. What or who would you trust more, a man just watching kids or a man takign shots of kids, the man with the camera is more than likely to get away with it than the one without, same goes for if he had a dog with him. The more convincing that you are, the more likely you are to get away with stuff.

Something else troubling, and I'm not trying to push any blame, but you mention kids being led away from a park because of all the noise and such. It honestly is up to a child's parents or guardians to keep an eye on them, what if they trip and fall, or just wander off?

Totally agree with you on this point, some people just don't get it though. It is like leaving a child in a swimming pool and you leaving to answer the phone.

I just think maybe the solution to run every single man out of every public park to not only be a false sense of security but also very rude. If you wouldn't want someone harassing your child then why is it right to harass an adult without any proof of wrong doing?

I have never said that, and I think you are wrong to think that. Noone is hassling anyone, youhave to drive a car with a licsene and insurance, why not just cover your bases adn have a biz card handy, so easy if you are going to do something that may be percieved as odd by paranoid parents. It also assures you that they will go and see yoru website and go hey, I want this person to take some shots of our family, money in the bank.

I do believe it to be alright to approach a photographer and politely ask what they are doing, I've been approached a few times and am happy to explain what I am photographing, if the person is polite about it. However what bothers me in all of the cases mentioned, the concerned adults have seemed almost on the verge of assault towards the photographer.

I totaly agree, I love showing off what i have taken if someone asks, I also delete something if they ask, it is a just the right thing to do and I give them a biz card and they remember me as being polite and maybe they will want me to take portrait shots, again boils down to money in the bank. I think some people are just arseholes though and those people you can not deal with however polite or in the right you are, as in the case of Yospiff

I'm sorry but I just cannot settle for that. I also will not settle for being treated with suspicion over performing my hobby in public places.

And you shouldnt and should never have to be put into that situation, it is just what it is like these days, whether we like it or not

So assuming someone comes up to me and asks politely what I am taking pictures of and if they can see. What do you believe would help the process turn out as a positive one? My camera has a burst mode as do many cameras, what if I do have a picture of some kids knickers somewhere in there as they jump off something or fall over in the sand or something.

I think it is all ready positive, they are talking with you , you are talking back at them, I do not see a problem with that at all, shit happens, kids fall over, kids hang upside down, if a parent asked you if you could delete the ones that showed there undies, I know I would delete them, I do not think that it is a big deal.

And assuming someone comes up to me and is not polite in the least and threatens to call the police, how should a photographer defuse such a situation.

Seriously, if it was me in that position as the photographer, I would tell them to go right ahead, I would even give them my cell phone to call them with. NO ONE should take verbal or physical abuse from anyone. As I stated 5 times now, that is wrong.

The best way to handle something like this is dress your kids appropriatly, put down that cell phone and watch your kids, don't be afraid of taking pictures, but rememeber that there are paranoid people out there and some of them might just come up to you and ask you whatcha doing. Be polite, I mean that is ust common sense. As I said, some people though are just arseholes and we will all come across them and sometimes there is no pleaseing them

In all honesty, I think it is harder for you to imagine a parents feeling, cos you have said you have never wanted kids and never will, so to understand it is a little harder.

Also, want to reiterate that, this does not happen just in parks, it is everywhere you go, but it also does not happen every single day , these are just examples for the case in point.

edited to also add, sorry about all the typos,

edited to add again::::there would be serious trouble for me." did you mean "for me" or "for you"? I read it as the latter and it came off threatening,

No that was meant to read Me, I would be the one who would be in troube, possibly for causing a scene, being embarressed etc

Message edited by author 2008-05-27 12:36:42.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

05/27/2008 12:25:43 PM · #49

Originally posted by toddhead:

Having a child changes everything about the way you look at life. It amplifies your typical emotions to levels you never knew existed. If you thought you were protective of something in the past, have a child... you won't believe how protective you can be.

Assuming you had a typical childhood, would you consider yourself more, less, or about the same as protective of your own kids as your parents were of you?

You may be slightly too young to be asked that question.

I have no children. But I can say that it seems to me that parents in 2008 are vastly more protective of their children than my parents were of me in the sixties and seventies. I would call the level of protection that many parents display "hysterical", and I would point to some of the examples given in this thread as evidence of hysteria.

As an example, one of the proudest moments of my life came when I was seven. We had recently moved to Burlington, a small suburban town. There was a convenience store a couple of kilometres away from the new house. Having learned the route from a few trips there in the care with Dad, I asked my mother one day if I could have a nickel and go to the store alone. She agreed with no hesitation. My folks watched me walk down the street, smiling at me and waving.

As mentioned, the store was some distance away. You had to work your way through a newly built suburban subdivision, then cross a busy major street to get to the store.

I was very happy at this accomplishment, and the fact that I remember it with such fondness is surely evidence that such an independent action informed the adult that I am today.

There is a growing dissatisfaction with parental paranoia amongst an increasing number of parents. Free Range Kids is one reaction to unreasonable levels of concern.