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05/25/2008 09:05:06 AM · #51 |
Hey Simms, I take no offense, my crown already has some dents. :-)
The teacher was absent all day on Friday, after the happenings of Thursday, so Mrs. Slippy couldn't speak to her, so then went to the principal. I suppose we'll hear the teacher's side of the story this coming week sometime.
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05/25/2008 11:59:39 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Now I am not calling her honesty into question, but I have a 10 year old boy and I know they are prone to a certain amount of exagerration when relaying events back.. |
So you are calling her honesty into question, or at least the accuracy of her report. What evidence, other than you own child's propensity for prevarication, do you have to make that accusation, and further to base your entire response to this situation on that presumption of inaccuracy?
I can tell you from personal experience (and that of my son) that a "liberal" social attitude and opposition to corporal punishment do not automatically lead to an abandonment of discipline or bad behavior on the part of kids.
Slippy: I'd find out if there is a sign posted, if the rule is in a student handbook she was given her first day at school (or earlier), or if she was personally informed that tree-climing on campus was forbidden. If she was never informed of the rule she should not be punished, and especially not singled-out (as seems to be the case) as compared to her companions, who were knowing rule-breakers.
If it were me, I'd like to visit her class, and have have the teacher stand up in front of the class and apologize to your daughter. Or perhaps have the teacher go stand in the corner and face the wall for five minutes ...:-( |
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05/25/2008 01:42:54 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
So you are calling her honesty into question, or at least the accuracy of her report. What evidence, other than you own child's propensity for prevarication, do you have to make that accusation, and further to base your entire response to this situation on that presumption of inaccuracy?
I can tell you from personal experience (and that of my son) that a "liberal" social attitude and opposition to corporal punishment do not automatically lead to an abandonment of discipline or bad behavior on the part of kids.
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OK, like I said in another posting, there are people on here who will dissect every little word one says like a lawyer in a court-room.
My evidence is I don't walk around with my eyes shut. I see what is happening with kids these days, you hear it on radio, on TV, one experiences it for oneself. You just `experience` it.. If you want me to finely detail everything I base my opinions on then I am sorry but I cant do that. However I know its not just MY kids, my other half works on the child-protection team for social services, and she knows calls come in saying that "my parents smacked me", and it HAS to be investigated, even if it was a tap across the ear, so as a result, the parents have to be investigated, and their other children interviewed, a report has to be filed. Generally it stops there, however, the next time the child is pushing the boundaries, the parents will not administer punishment as they dont need to go through that crap again, the child sees this as a green light to do whatever they like without repercussions.. and so the avalanche begins. And I am not just talking about kids from the lower class families (and you know exactly what I mean by that) but also kids from good, middle class homes.
As someone said earlier, we are the architects of the `spare the rod` society. I KNOW it has changed in the short space of time since I was a child. If I got caught f**king about when I was 10, 11, then I wouldn't be surprised to get a clip around the ear from a policeman/teacher etc and if I told my parents, I'd get another for good measure.. However, if that happened these days, the parents generally go mental at that person, sue for lots of money etc. and then the child then knows that authority-figures mean diddly-squat if you are under 18 years of age.. Hell, they can even get their parents arrested if they smack them. and the kids know this stuff.. and we have been rendered powerless by our own actions to do anything about it.
However, like I said earlier, I am not calling her honesty into question here, but her recollection of events as they happened, which when you are 9, get hazy very quickly. I pray she is wrong about it, as that means a teacher will be out of a job and a little girl will be scarred by the experience.
Still, dissect this as you see fit, but apply some common sense to what I am saying and dont nitpick every single little word.
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05/25/2008 02:18:34 PM · #54 |
I read Slippy's original post with mixed feelings... My son is currently in the same general age group as Slippy's daughter (he's 8) and what I can attest to is (and from what I can remember from 30 years ago) that children at this age constantly test the boundaries.
This testing is as healthy as it comes. A child that does not do this is the one I would be worried about. When I was in school, there were things (forbidden) to try, and appropriate consequences for being caught doing those things. Picking apples and peaches from the orchard next to school, playing soccer at recess with an occasional ball flying into the principal's window, talking to peers while the teacher lectures etc.
I do not recall corporal punishment, but probably not because there was none, but more likely because it was a normal thing and you were getting what you deserved.
Back to present: by talking to my son, I realize that he knows very well what are the things that are considered out-of-bounds, but the consequences for doing so are merely inadequate, at least the children view them as such. They probably balance the inconvenience from talking to teacher/counselor/principal against the fun of doing it, and they end up doing it again.
back to the past: a consequence for me climbing up the lightning rod on the side of the school meant the principal called my dad to come to school immediately from work. And having my dad have to leave work to talk to principal about me in the morning meant that my afternoon at home was not fun.
There were also other options at the teacher's disposal. I had classmates that had to repeat the schoolyear because of the inadequate performance (too may unexcused absences and such).
back to the present: is there anything that kids may receive as a punishment at school that would make them think twice about doing it again? I haven't learned of such thing yet. You think that sitting them down and talking to them about how it is not right to do those things may be the first step, and should be done after the first offense. I agree. I am asking what to do after 2nd, 3rd, etc...
The parents today (2 working parents - out of home from 8am-6pm - as in my family) do not have the time necessary to bring up their kids. Between having to feed them and get them ready for bed, there is, what, about an hour per kid a day available for bringing them up. I depend on school and after-school care to bring up my kids. Awful, I know, but that's my life. And for that reason, I do approve of whatever the teachers must resort to in order to prepare those children for the real world.
-Serge |
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05/25/2008 02:22:30 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
a consequence for me climbing up the lightning rod on the side of the school meant the principal called my dad to come to school immediately from work. |
Just wanted to add: at my time in my country, there would be no lawsuits against the school were I to fall and split my skull open. It would have been my fault and nobody else's. So, money was not the reason for the school's reaction - only life education. |
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05/25/2008 02:30:06 PM · #56 |
Speaking of all this school stuff, I just still want to know why 18 years after the fact it was ok for fellow students to throw baseball sized rocks at my head while the teacher was watching but if I threw one back or ran after them I get detention...
Seems it took one direction for boy-hood horse play, two directions was a fight and rules had it the last one to throw a punch/etc. was the one in the wrong. Stupid schools....
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05/25/2008 03:35:32 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by srdanz:
back to the past: a consequence for me climbing up the lightning rod on the side of the school meant the principal called my dad to come to school immediately from work. And having my dad have to leave work to talk to principal about me in the morning meant that my afternoon at home was not fun. |
Yeah, nowdays the kid gets a 'time out' or sent to their room. The room with cable television on a large screen plasma, Nintendo, and several thousands of dollars worth of other hi-tech toys. Then they sit and ignore all the toys and talk to their friends on their cell phone. It's really tough on the little darlings, but as parents we must be firm. |
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05/25/2008 03:45:57 PM · #58 |
Slippy,
I'm right there with you. |
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05/25/2008 03:54:10 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by Simms:
Still, dissect this as you see fit, but apply some common sense to what I am saying and dont nitpick every single little word. |
A word is a unit of language that carries meaning and consists of one or more morphemes which are linked more or less tightly together, and has a phonetical value. Typically a word will consist of a root or stem and zero or more affixes. Words can be combined to create phrases, clauses, and sentences. A word consisting of two or more stems joined together form a compound. A word combined with another word or part of a word form a portmanteau. |
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05/25/2008 04:23:01 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by Simms:
Still, dissect this as you see fit, but apply some common sense to what I am saying and dont nitpick every single little word. |
A word is a unit of language that carries meaning and consists of one or more morphemes which are linked more or less tightly together, and has a phonetical value. Typically a word will consist of a root or stem and zero or more affixes. Words can be combined to create phrases, clauses, and sentences. A word consisting of two or more stems joined together form a compound. A word combined with another word or part of a word form a portmanteau. |
SNL is just around the corner for you.. :/ |
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05/25/2008 04:28:18 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Simms:
SNL is just around the corner for you.. :/ |
I quite enjoyed that bit of levity to break the tension :) |
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05/25/2008 05:07:01 PM · #62 |
Since someone kinda asked.
If I were the teacher, and this scenario, as presented, had happened my classroom, it may have followed something like this.
1st offense -- Lecture/Discussion/Conversation with the child, making sure she knew about the rule, and why we have the rule.
2nd offense -- Loss of a privilege -- must sit with me at play time and write a letter to her parents explaining that she broke the rule, etc.
3rd offense -- Parents would be called in and we would have a discussion, with the child present, to try and figure out what it is she doesn't understand and why she keeps breaking the rule.
Now, I know some of you may not think I know anything about what I'm saying, but a degree in Education, a certificate in special education, and many hours towards a Master's in Behavioral Disorders, has exposed me to a great myriad of ways to deal with things -- some more effective than others. What I have always tried to do though, is start with the mildest, least intrusive measure and work up. IMO, this teacher, even if Slippy's daughter was outright lying, didn't leave her a lot of room to work up to.
What I will concede is that most of my experience in the field is with teenagers and young adults who are "at-risk" and in a non-traditional school setting, so what could I possibly know about normal (as normal as a child could be with Slippy as a dad) 9 year old girls? |
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05/25/2008 06:08:25 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Mick:
Yeah, nowdays the kid gets a 'time out' or sent to their room. The room with cable television on a large screen plasma, Nintendo, and several thousands of dollars worth of other hi-tech toys. Then they sit and ignore all the toys and talk to their friends on their cell phone. It's really tough on the little darlings, but as parents we must be firm. |
Come on - some of us stricter parents unplug the plasma and make them suffer with the old 27" tube tv! Tough love, I say! |
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05/25/2008 06:16:32 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by Mick:
Yeah, nowdays the kid gets a 'time out' or sent to their room. The room with cable television on a large screen plasma, Nintendo, and several thousands of dollars worth of other hi-tech toys. Then they sit and ignore all the toys and talk to their friends on their cell phone. It's really tough on the little darlings, but as parents we must be firm. |
Come on - some of us stricter parents unplug the plasma and make them suffer with the old 27" tube tv! Tough love, I say! |
You should be reported.. |
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05/25/2008 08:08:42 PM · #65 |
| This thread has hit very close to home for me as my 9yr old daughter was punished for not doing her homework by making her hold a dictionary over head while standing in front of the class. This happened in spite of the fact the homework she was to do came with no instructions and even I (a college graduate) could not figure out what she was supposed to do and I sent in a note asking the teacher for instructions promising to have her complete the assignment the following day. My daughter I realize is not the second coming of mother theresa but how would she even know to make this kind of thing up? I was at the principals office the next day who promised to look into the matter and call us to let us know the resolution of the matter but never called. When I contacted him again he blew me off and told me due to privacy considerations he couldn't discuss the teachers disciplinary records with me. He had said he would talk to my daughter but according to her he never did. Now she is not being allowed to participate in field day or attend a special end of year movie day because she lost a library book. If it was punishment for her losing it that would be fine but the punishment is because I can't afford to pay for it (I'm having trouble just keeping the lights on right now). Public schools suck. |
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05/25/2008 09:15:56 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by Simms:
...big snip...
my other half works on the child-protection team for social services, and she knows calls come in saying that "my parents smacked me", and it HAS to be investigated, even if it was a tap across the ear, so as a result, the parents have to be investigated, and their other children interviewed, a report has to be filed. Generally it stops there, however, the next time the child is pushing the boundaries, the parents will not administer punishment as they dont need to go through that crap again, the child sees this as a green light to do whatever they like without repercussions.. and so the avalanche begins.
...big snip... |
There's a difference between the way you and I discipline our kids. We've never hit our kids. Talking is enough for us and they have always been very well behaved. Maybe it's a boy versus girl thing. You sound as if you believe physical violence is an absolute requirement to keep kids well-behaved. :-(
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05/25/2008 09:24:36 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
This thread has hit very close to home for me as my 9yr old daughter was punished for not doing her homework by making her hold a dictionary over head while standing in front of the class. This happened in spite of the fact the homework she was to do came with no instructions and even I (a college graduate) could not figure out what she was supposed to do and I sent in a note asking the teacher for instructions promising to have her complete the assignment the following day. My daughter I realize is not the second coming of mother theresa but how would she even know to make this kind of thing up? I was at the principals office the next day who promised to look into the matter and call us to let us know the resolution of the matter but never called. When I contacted him again he blew me off and told me due to privacy considerations he couldn't discuss the teachers disciplinary records with me. He had said he would talk to my daughter but according to her he never did. Now she is not being allowed to participate in field day or attend a special end of year movie day because she lost a library book. If it was punishment for her losing it that would be fine but the punishment is because I can't afford to pay for it (I'm having trouble just keeping the lights on right now). Public schools suck. |
In Year 10 myself and another friend had to hold a brick in each hand over our heads for recess break (about 15 minutes) for being little s**ts in class. It didn't kill me, and I didn't mess up like that again. I received the cane a few times as well but that's the way it was back then. I know here in Australia the PC police have made it very hard for teachers to act on discipline. If my kids misbehave now all that pretty much happens is they get a note home stating what happened and that's pretty much it.
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05/25/2008 09:43:23 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Makka:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
This thread has hit very close to home for me as my 9yr old daughter was punished for not doing her homework by making her hold a dictionary over head while standing in front of the class. This happened in spite of the fact the homework she was to do came with no instructions and even I (a college graduate) could not figure out what she was supposed to do and I sent in a note asking the teacher for instructions promising to have her complete the assignment the following day. My daughter I realize is not the second coming of mother theresa but how would she even know to make this kind of thing up? I was at the principals office the next day who promised to look into the matter and call us to let us know the resolution of the matter but never called. When I contacted him again he blew me off and told me due to privacy considerations he couldn't discuss the teachers disciplinary records with me. He had said he would talk to my daughter but according to her he never did. Now she is not being allowed to participate in field day or attend a special end of year movie day because she lost a library book. If it was punishment for her losing it that would be fine but the punishment is because I can't afford to pay for it (I'm having trouble just keeping the lights on right now). Public schools suck. |
In Year 10 myself and another friend had to hold a brick in each hand over our heads for recess break (about 15 minutes) for being little s**ts in class. It didn't kill me, and I didn't mess up like that again. I received the cane a few times as well but that's the way it was back then. I know here in Australia the PC police have made it very hard for teachers to act on discipline. If my kids misbehave now all that pretty much happens is they get a note home stating what happened and that's pretty much it. |
I agree that kids need discipline and sometimes even corporal punishment has it's place but my child was punished for not understanding her homework assignment. That's not misbehavior at all and why should my child be punished because I cannot afford to pay for a book. If I had the money she wouldn't have been punished so what is the logic here. If I have the money to pay then she doesn't deserve to be punished any longer? They are using my child as a way to squeeze me and try to make me pay what I cannot. That is wrong.
Message edited by author 2008-05-25 21:51:00. |
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05/25/2008 09:49:54 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
Originally posted by Makka:
Originally posted by dponlyme:
This thread has hit very close to home for me as my 9yr old daughter was punished for not doing her homework by making her hold a dictionary over head while standing in front of the class. This happened in spite of the fact the homework she was to do came with no instructions and even I (a college graduate) could not figure out what she was supposed to do and I sent in a note asking the teacher for instructions promising to have her complete the assignment the following day. My daughter I realize is not the second coming of mother theresa but how would she even know to make this kind of thing up? I was at the principals office the next day who promised to look into the matter and call us to let us know the resolution of the matter but never called. When I contacted him again he blew me off and told me due to privacy considerations he couldn't discuss the teachers disciplinary records with me. He had said he would talk to my daughter but according to her he never did. Now she is not being allowed to participate in field day or attend a special end of year movie day because she lost a library book. If it was punishment for her losing it that would be fine but the punishment is because I can't afford to pay for it (I'm having trouble just keeping the lights on right now). Public schools suck. |
In Year 10 myself and another friend had to hold a brick in each hand over our heads for recess break (about 15 minutes) for being little s**ts in class. It didn't kill me, and I didn't mess up like that again. I received the cane a few times as well but that's the way it was back then. I know here in Australia the PC police have made it very hard for teachers to act on discipline. If my kids misbehave now all that pretty much happens is they get a note home stating what happened and that's pretty much it. |
I agree that kids need discipline and sometimes even corporal punishment has it's place but my child was punished for not understanding her homework assignment. That's not misbehavior at all and why should my child be punished because I cannot afford to pay for a book. If I had the money she wouldn't have been punished so what is the logic here. If I have the money to pay then she doesn't deserve to be punished any longer. They are using my child as a way to squeeze me and try to make me pay what I cannot. That is wrong. |
Whoops! My comment wasn't supposed to have yours quoted in it! It wasn't directed at you! Sorry!
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05/25/2008 09:54:53 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by dponlyme:
snip told me due to privacy considerations he couldn't discuss the teachers disciplinary records with me. snip |
Take it up the chain, go to the super, because this is BS, if they can not discuss what they do with YOUR child to you than I first assume they are doing something wrong. What are they hiding? Document everything and report them up the ladder.
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05/25/2008 10:00:52 PM · #71 |
I agree children need to be disciplined, yet I also believe it is situational. As for the OP the teacher I believe was completely in the wrong with their actions and should have some sort of disciplinary actions against them.
Now, if this was not the first time this incident happened and not by a 'new' student to the school than possibly there was grounds. But from reading the OP there were not. However, holding your arms out in front of you with your head on the desk I believe is too far punishment for the teacher to administer.
If there needs to be harsher punishment than a 'time out' than the teacher needs to take it up their ladder, and involve the principle to the desired punishment.
Being singled out for excessive punishment is completely wrong in my opinion and yes I have been a victim of it most all my lower educational life. I am no angel, but there is a difference between being rightfully punished and being singled out to make an example or other out of.
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05/26/2008 12:46:59 AM · #72 |
My parents knew how to handle young boys. They gave me, and both my brothers pellet guns and told us to shoot one of our brothers if we caught them being bad. Worked very well, kept us all in line. I was the most misbehaved though, since I got shot the most, usually just for walking into the living room or kitchen, but I grew up just fine!
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05/26/2008 03:16:01 PM · #73 |
There is no incentive you could offer me to teach in public school. I could never deal successfully with the enraged parents & there is no way to avoid enraged parents. Even with the maximum in damage control of no homework, no exams, no discipline, & no consequences for misbehavior, still some parent would be enraged over something, demanding the end of my miserably underpaid career. Or I would be shot dead by one of the students.
I have nothing but admiration for the heroes & heroniens who teach public school. I don't know how they do it. |
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05/26/2008 03:40:30 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by pixelpig:
I have nothing but admiration for the heroes & heroniens who teach public school. I don't know how they do it. |
Even the psychotic ones? |
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05/26/2008 03:42:23 PM · #75 |
Teacher lets kindergarten students vote out classmate, 5yo.
"After each classmate was allowed to say what they didn't like about Barton's 5-year-old son, Alex, his Morningside Elementary teacher Wendy Portillo said they were going to take a vote, Barton said.
By a 14 to 2 margin, the students voted Alex ΓΆ€” who is in the process of being diagnosed with autism ΓΆ€” out of the class."
Full story.
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