| Author | Thread |
|
|
04/04/2008 11:30:51 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
I absolutely hate that team collaboration on challenge entries is not only allowed, but encouraged. |
I'm not sure I understand the issue here. There was some team discussion during the DPL last year, but otherwise...? |
I agree with shannon. Whats wrong with teamwork? |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 11:38:55 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by k4ffy:
Whats wrong with teamwork? |
I could see an issue if people were collaborating to get ideas, processing tips and setup help for individual entries, but I think the current team threads are pretty much limited to "ra, ra ra... go team." |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 11:39:05 AM · #53 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
I absolutely hate that team collaboration on challenge entries is not only allowed, but encouraged. |
I'm not sure I understand the issue here. There was some team discussion during the DPL last year, but otherwise...?
|
Considering that the DPL league threads are still active and I've seen many comments on challenge photos where "team" members say things like "this is the best of your edits" (paraphrasing here), then I have to agree with  Gatorguy on this.
|
|
|
|
04/04/2008 11:41:48 AM · #54 |
| Why are those DPL league threads even around anymore? The last post to the RibbonHogs thread was several months ago (an inquiry about future competitions). |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 11:43:26 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Why are those DPL league threads even around anymore? The last post to the RibbonHogs thread was several months ago (an inquiry about future competitions). |
I have no idea why they are still active. Maybe you should bring it up with Langdon. I know our thread is still active with people sometimes asking "which shot should I enter", etc. I suspect most threads are active in a similar way.
Message edited by author 2008-04-04 11:43:40.
|
|
|
|
04/04/2008 11:52:16 AM · #56 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by k4ffy:
Whats wrong with teamwork? |
I could see an issue if people were collaborating to get ideas, processing tips and setup help for individual entries, but I think the current team threads are pretty much limited to "ra, ra ra... go team." |
DPC OFs
As for the Team threads...collaboration (see above thread for example) appears to be allowed/legal as long as you don't vote on the challenge entry you've seen/discussed. |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 12:00:23 PM · #57 |
| Gatorguy, I'd really rather you not leave. You know things go in cycles. Some stuff changes, some stuff comes back around. May I ask in all sincerity why you don't agree with the "collaboration" on teams? I found my DPL team to be a very valuable experience, and we still ask each other "which one for the challenge?" I can say with definite certainty that it really hasn't helped my scores all that much, but it is a great form of encouragement. My team will tell me "You know this won't score well, but I really like it." When we know which entry belongs to a teammate, we absolutely do not vote on it. We may leave comments on it, but with no vote. In that respect, I don't think we are influencing the end result in any way. What we may be doing is helping each other see things in a shot that we might not see. To me, this is well within the learning spirit of DPC. |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 12:05:04 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by k4ffy:
Whats wrong with teamwork? |
I could see an issue if people were collaborating to get ideas, processing tips and setup help for individual entries, but I think the current team threads are pretty much limited to "ra, ra ra... go team." |
Whats wrong with teamwork? How is collaborating inside DPC any different some asking the opinion of a family member or someone looking over your shoulder to get ideas for PP etc in the real world?
Should all DPC entries be created in a bubble, just a photographer, his camera and computer?
"Quiet model!! This is for DPC. Do not dare suggest an alternative pose!!!"
|
|
|
|
04/04/2008 12:09:28 PM · #59 |
| One of my old DPC team members has recently asked me for opinions on two or three of his entries. I give him my 2¢ and then do NOT vote on his entry. How this is any worse than a husband-and-wife exchange of ideas or a father-and-son collaboration, I don't know. |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 12:11:11 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Why are those DPL league threads even around anymore? The last post to the RibbonHogs thread was several months ago (an inquiry about future competitions). |
Shannon, maybe they are around because hope springs eternal
and DPL might get started again one of these days. but that's
another subject. Not for discussion here, i would think.
|
|
|
|
04/04/2008 12:25:50 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
... Not for discussion here, i would think. |
Well...now, just give it some time. :-)
 |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 12:46:09 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Gatorguy, I'd really rather you not leave. You know things go in cycles. Some stuff changes, some stuff comes back around. May I ask in all sincerity why you don't agree with the "collaboration" on teams? I found my DPL team to be a very valuable experience, and we still ask each other "which one for the challenge?" I can say with definite certainty that it really hasn't helped my scores all that much, but it is a great form of encouragement. My team will tell me "You know this won't score well, but I really like it." When we know which entry belongs to a teammate, we absolutely do not vote on it. We may leave comments on it, but with no vote. In that respect, I don't think we are influencing the end result in any way. What we may be doing is helping each other see things in a shot that we might not see. To me, this is well within the learning spirit of DPC. |
I think of it like a test in school. Study together, take sample tests, discuss, learn from one another, etc., etc. But when test day comes, you're on your own. They don't allow collaboration on test day, they don't allow a team member to assist another on a wrestling mat, why should it be allowed in a photography competition?
There was/is a thread asking for people to sign up for collaborative efforts on challenge photos. I complained and the reply was DPC is a learning site. So yes, it does exist.
Message edited by author 2008-04-04 12:50:08. |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 12:54:53 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Gatorguy, I'd really rather you not leave. You know things go in cycles. Some stuff changes, some stuff comes back around. May I ask in all sincerity why you don't agree with the "collaboration" on teams? I found my DPL team to be a very valuable experience, and we still ask each other "which one for the challenge?" I can say with definite certainty that it really hasn't helped my scores all that much, but it is a great form of encouragement. My team will tell me "You know this won't score well, but I really like it." When we know which entry belongs to a teammate, we absolutely do not vote on it. We may leave comments on it, but with no vote. In that respect, I don't think we are influencing the end result in any way. What we may be doing is helping each other see things in a shot that we might not see. To me, this is well within the learning spirit of DPC. |
I think of it like a test in school. Study together, take sample tests, discuss, learn from one another, etc., etc. But when test day comes, you're on your own. They don't allow collaboration on test day, they don't allow a team member to assist another on a wrestling mat, why should it be allowed in a photography competition?
There was/is a thread asking for people to sign up for collaborative efforts on challenge photos. I complained and the reply was DPC is a learning site. So yes, it does exist. |
You do realize that there is no way to control if they colaborate or not, unless they explicitly say it, right? This could happen on any photography site (if you think going somewhere else for better conditions).
And since we're not here for money, but for learning, I don't mind colaboration (to be clear: I colaborate with no one, guess you can tell by my scores :)
|
|
|
|
04/04/2008 12:55:41 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
[quote=Gatorguy]I still have 11 months left of my membership. SC, can I donate that to someone? |
That's outside SC control, but you can ask Langdon. |
Done |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 01:37:46 PM · #65 |
Gator, just accept it and don't be fool to leave. You're gonna be back soon, this site is like an addiction.
This site has many other faults aside of the rules definitions, starting on the common sense of low voting that appears to be like a disease for every member. Even the ribbonners receive plenty of 4's or less, without being justified (myself included). I know judgments are relative to each person, but if you find a photo deserves 4 or less, you should be obligated to tell why. It is completely absurd for me, that a person gives a low vote a photo without justifying it. But this is my opinion and it seems everybody here just accepts the low votes as being a natural event. But why we should get it as normal?
Regarding your DQ, just forget it, life goes on, there are more challenges coming. I think it is impossible to make everybody happy and from time to time someone will get angry. I agree that the rules should be more clear about what is permitted. As a suggestion, I would say that the council could start to put together some examples about each of the mentions on the rule sets, with a quick link besides each phrase. That should help. |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 02:03:10 PM · #66 |
Originally posted by marcusvdt:
Regarding your DQ, just forget it, life goes on ... |
Check out why I got a DQ ... it can be overwhelmingly frustrating, but a new challenge comes along really quickly, and it soon seems far less important.
 |
|
|
|
04/04/2008 08:58:17 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Gatorguy, I'd really rather you not leave. You know things go in cycles. Some stuff changes, some stuff comes back around. May I ask in all sincerity why you don't agree with the "collaboration" on teams? I found my DPL team to be a very valuable experience, and we still ask each other "which one for the challenge?" I can say with definite certainty that it really hasn't helped my scores all that much, but it is a great form of encouragement. My team will tell me "You know this won't score well, but I really like it." When we know which entry belongs to a teammate, we absolutely do not vote on it. We may leave comments on it, but with no vote. In that respect, I don't think we are influencing the end result in any way. What we may be doing is helping each other see things in a shot that we might not see. To me, this is well within the learning spirit of DPC. |
I think of it like a test in school. Study together, take sample tests, discuss, learn from one another, etc., etc. But when test day comes, you're on your own. They don't allow collaboration on test day, they don't allow a team member to assist another on a wrestling mat, why should it be allowed in a photography competition?
There was/is a thread asking for people to sign up for collaborative efforts on challenge photos. I complained and the reply was DPC is a learning site. So yes, it does exist. |
Since I was the one to reply to Bill's complaint (about this thread), perhaps I can provide some additional insight. A couple weeks ago we received an email from Bill concerned about whether collaboration such as in the thread above should be acceptable. I replied as follows:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Hi Bill,
Thank you for contacting us about this. We do appreciate your commitment to fair competition.
It's important to understand that DPChallenge was created (in Drew and Langdon's words) as "a place where the two of us and a couple of our friends could teach ourselves to be better photographers by giving each other a 'challenge' for the week." That is, the goal of the site is learning, and the challenges are the primary means to that end.
Mentoring and sharing opinions among users is nothing new to DPChallenge. I can find threads on the subject going back at least as far as January, 2003, and can personally confirm the existing of numerous informal mentoring relationships as far back as mid-2002. In addition, we know of several art teachers who use DPChallenge in their classrooms as a teaching tool, with students entering, commenting and voting on challenges as part of their learning process. We would be hard-pressed to allow this type of formal instruction while disallowing more informal methods of feedback.
Because of this, and because mentoring and peer feedback is important to the learning process for so many users, our long-standing position is that it is acceptable to seek feedback from an individual or small group of users. The restrictions on this are that challenge entrants must take and post-process their own photographs (though they may solicit and consider advice from others, whether DPC users or not, the decision whether to follow that advice must be their own). In addition, they must not cast biased votes - skipping voting on entries on which one has provided advice is strongly recommended to avoid any chance of bias.
As long as these basic guidelines are followed, consider mentoring and peer feedback to be perfectly acceptable, and potentially an important learning tool. Because this option is available to anyone, we do not consider it an unfair advantage, no more than one could consider it "unfair" that some members use Photoshop CS3 while others of might only be using GIMP, Photoshop CS, or Elements.
Once again, thanks for calling this to our attention and offering us the opportunity to respond.
Warm regards,
~Terry
DPC SC |
Though I truly respect Bill's opinion on this (and I hope that the tone and detail of my reply to him reply reflects that), it is worth noting that Bill's assertion that DPC is "not what it used to be" in this regard is somewhat misleading. Small-group mentoring and peer feedback have been part of the site for virtually its entire existence.
Bill, I will add that I too hope you will reconsider your decision to leave. I wish you all the best in whatever you decide.
~Terry
|
|
|
|
04/05/2008 12:22:38 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Gatorguy, I'd really rather you not leave. You know things go in cycles. Some stuff changes, some stuff comes back around. May I ask in all sincerity why you don't agree with the "collaboration" on teams? I found my DPL team to be a very valuable experience, and we still ask each other "which one for the challenge?" I can say with definite certainty that it really hasn't helped my scores all that much, but it is a great form of encouragement. My team will tell me "You know this won't score well, but I really like it." When we know which entry belongs to a teammate, we absolutely do not vote on it. We may leave comments on it, but with no vote. In that respect, I don't think we are influencing the end result in any way. What we may be doing is helping each other see things in a shot that we might not see. To me, this is well within the learning spirit of DPC. |
I think of it like a test in school. Study together, take sample tests, discuss, learn from one another, etc., etc. But when test day comes, you're on your own. They don't allow collaboration on test day, they don't allow a team member to assist another on a wrestling mat, why should it be allowed in a photography competition?
There was/is a thread asking for people to sign up for collaborative efforts on challenge photos. I complained and the reply was DPC is a learning site. So yes, it does exist. |
I'm going to wager that we may not be able to change your mind, which is a shame. But I was thinking about this a lot last night and I think where the disconnect for me is that a challenge isn't like a test in school. If we won cash prizes or the opportunity to show in a gallery, maybe I'd think differently. And I figure even in school students get assistance with final art projects - from peers, teachers, parents, etc - if nothing more than opinions. In the end, though, the person creating the project/picture must decide and create the final product. |
|
|
|
04/05/2008 12:37:24 AM · #69 |
The bottom line is very few people create their work in a complete vacuum. I am sure some do, but most people are more social than that. Spouses, children, friends are checking in on stuff, for example. And there is absolutely NO way to police/enforce any absolute requirement that our challenge entries be created in such a vacuum. It is, IMO, ridiculous to assume that's even desirable. It elevates whatw e're doing to WAY to high a position of seriousness.
I mean, sheesh... Out in the Real World artists, photographers, craftsmen, whomever, don't work in any such vacuum; for the most part they are involved in a constant cycle of feedback/improvement on their individual pieces. And this would be true even IF the piece in question was destined for, say, a juried show. Nobody raises an eyebrow at this. It's absolutely part of the process.
Now, if someone else actually PAINTED the painting, say, and you entered it as your own, THAT would be fraudulent. Thats' what our rules are here to guard against: the work, the execution of the work, has to be your own. But to suggest that the work is somehow invalidated because you sought other's opinions, or took an idea somebody else came up with it and made it your own, is (I repeat myself) absolutely ridiculous.
R. |
|
|
|
04/05/2008 12:55:51 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by Gatorguy:
Originally posted by Melethia:
Gatorguy, I'd really rather you not leave. You know things go in cycles. Some stuff changes, some stuff comes back around. May I ask in all sincerity why you don't agree with the "collaboration" on teams? I found my DPL team to be a very valuable experience, and we still ask each other "which one for the challenge?" I can say with definite certainty that it really hasn't helped my scores all that much, but it is a great form of encouragement. My team will tell me "You know this won't score well, but I really like it." When we know which entry belongs to a teammate, we absolutely do not vote on it. We may leave comments on it, but with no vote. In that respect, I don't think we are influencing the end result in any way. What we may be doing is helping each other see things in a shot that we might not see. To me, this is well within the learning spirit of DPC. |
I think of it like a test in school. Study together, take sample tests, discuss, learn from one another, etc., etc. But when test day comes, you're on your own. They don't allow collaboration on test day, they don't allow a team member to assist another on a wrestling mat, why should it be allowed in a photography competition?
There was/is a thread asking for people to sign up for collaborative efforts on challenge photos. I complained and the reply was DPC is a learning site. So yes, it does exist. |
The problem is even if collaboration was made illegal there is no way to enforce it.
|
|
|
|
04/05/2008 02:07:15 AM · #71 |
Well looking at the rules it seems we do have a rule about collaboration, in that it must be approved first. My apologies if this hasn't already been posted:
"Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand"
Does this actually happen? I know I've read many times that the photographer had someone else setup the lighting or some other part of the shot. Does that constitute collaboration? Does this also apply to post processing? I know I've seen entries in the past that had the same look and feel of that of another family member's work. Do they seek permission first and if so what instances would that be granted? Just curious. Frankly, I wish the rules would simply say you must own every aspect of the execution of the image if not the creative end as well.
Message edited by author 2008-04-05 02:08:19. |
|
|
|
04/05/2008 02:48:33 AM · #72 |
| telephone line is including with power line. Lately telephone lines are thick just like a heavy rope! site counsil and Gymnastics judges had a lot of thing in common. |
|
|
|
04/05/2008 03:48:00 AM · #73 |
Shannon I apologize in advance but I must digress. I guess its the cop in me. If were going to compare apples to apples lets look at you original posted here.
I guess you considered all the cloning you did on the audience peeps, which was quite a bit as just minor inperfections? Hmm, It looks like there was a substantial amount of cloning going on to get to this entry:
So I stand by my comparison of Gator's shot and still think there is no difference.
|
|
|
|
04/05/2008 04:39:43 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by ShutterHack:
Shannon I apologize in advance but I must digress. I guess its the cop in me. If were going to compare apples to apples lets look at you original posted here.
I guess you considered all the cloning you did on the audience peeps, which was quite a bit as just minor inperfections? Hmm, It looks like there was a substantial amount of cloning going on to get to this entry:
So I stand by my comparison of Gator's shot and still think there is no difference. |
You mean the few little scars on their ears? I'd certainly consider those minor imperfections. They definitely wouldn't change my description of the shot!
If there's something I missed seeing let me know, I'll take another look. :) |
|
|
|
04/05/2008 04:43:54 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by yanko:
Well looking at the rules it seems we do have a rule about collaboration, in that it must be approved first. My apologies if this hasn't already been posted:
"Ownership: The photograph you enter must be taken and post-processed by you. You may let someone else press the shutter if you are unable to, but you must be the one who set up the shot and configured the camera. If you wish to collaborate with others when creating your submission, you will need express permission from the administrators beforehand"
Does this actually happen? I know I've read many times that the photographer had someone else setup the lighting or some other part of the shot. Does that constitute collaboration? Does this also apply to post processing? I know I've seen entries in the past that had the same look and feel of that of another family member's work. Do they seek permission first and if so what instances would that be granted? Just curious. Frankly, I wish the rules would simply say you must own every aspect of the execution of the image if not the creative end as well. |
I thought I recalled that wording too, so went and looked. Appears it has been changed for the currently valid rulesets;
"taken and post-processed by you. Someone else may press the shutter button if you set up the shot and the camera settings. No one else may post-process your entry for you. Exceptions must be approved by the Site Council in advance." |
|
