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04/06/2008 03:27:38 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
... Disclaimer* I'm not personally attacking anyone this morning but I (and some others) think that something should be done about the DQ's. We (the average user) need to be heard and stop being shot down by the voices that matter. All we need is 1 SC to see it our way and the rest will take care if itself. |
Hello. "Average user" here...I don't personally see a problem with the DQ system as it is. There's usually going to be someone that has a gripe, but for the majority I think the DQ/Validation process works very well. JMO of course. :-) |
You never do. You're happy as long as everything stays the same. We already know what you think and how you feel about the site. For a lot others it's different. |
It surprises me that someone as loudly vocal with their opinions as you are would have an issue with another member expressing his.
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04/06/2008 03:33:05 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
It surprises me that someone as loudly vocal with their opinions as you are would have an issue with another member expressing his. |
By all means I don't have a problem with him expressing anything. I'm only stating that every time this comes up it's the same answers.
Besides with no DQ's on his hands I could see why he likes the DQ rules.
I didn't search all of his 300+ challenge entries but the hand full that I did select and look at editing steps, I didn't see him using any cloning on any of his images. If you don't want to use it because you're scared you might get a DQ fine but I don't think you should go around saying that everything is fine when you truly don't know. (Again I didn't go thru all of his images but it LOOKS like he doesn't even get close to the edge).
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04/06/2008 03:34:34 PM · #103 |
Personally the way I see it is until you actually get a DQ and feel that you shouldn't have, then you don't know what it's like.
If you did get a DQ and you know what you did as wrong, well then you had it coming.
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04/06/2008 03:52:54 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
Personally the way I see it is until you actually get a DQ and feel that you shouldn't have, then you don't know what it's like. |
I know exactly what it's like.
 From the Games Challenge (details in the image info).
I think the biggest problem is that people get all defensive because they equate a DQ with being called a cheater. Editing "a little too much" is not cheating -- it is crossing an indefinable subjective boundary. It's unfortunate, but really should not be a big deal.
Cheating is taking your great photo from 2005 and altering the EXIF data to submit it now. (Don't do that or you will be banned!) |
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04/06/2008 04:11:15 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
By all means I don't have a problem with him expressing anything. I'm only stating that every time this comes up it's the same answers.
Besides with no DQ's on his hands I could see why he likes the DQ rules. |
I don't necessarily "like" the rules as worded, but I haven't seen any better, workable suggestions. |
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04/06/2008 04:12:25 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
It surprises me that someone as loudly vocal with their opinions as you are would have an issue with another member expressing his. |
By all means I don't have a problem with him expressing anything. I'm only stating that every time this comes up it's the same answers.
Besides with no DQ's on his hands I could see why he likes the DQ rules.
I didn't search all of his 300+ challenge entries but the hand full that I did select and look at editing steps, I didn't see him using any cloning on any of his images. If you don't want to use it because you're scared you might get a DQ fine but I don't think you should go around saying that everything is fine when you truly don't know. (Again I didn't go thru all of his images but it LOOKS like he doesn't even get close to the edge). |
Hmmm. Use of the cloning tool gets one "close to the edge"?
With 340+ challenge entries I have tried numerous scenarios, but generally I find that I don't need to worry about cloning in most cases because I've considered my shot in advance, composed to eliminate "minor imperfections", and don't rely on post-processing to fix sloppy compositions. That's not to say I haven't used the cloning tool - I have (one currently in voting required some minor cloning), but in most scenarios, no, I don't need it.
As for the times that I've gotten "close to the edge" I've usually enquired to SC ahead of time with a prevalidation. A couple of times I've changed my submission because in the opinion of SC members contacted, I was informed the entry may not pass.
Many people on this site I'm sure setup some elaborate shots at times. With some forethought it can be done without any, or very little post-processing adjustments such as cloning.
For example ==>  .
Here's the setup ==> 
And here's the precropped fullsize image ==> [thumb]666277[/thumb]
Personally I think the current rulesets allow for quite a bit of flexibility and if care is taken to follow the rules most photographers shouldn't have any trouble. |
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04/06/2008 07:03:12 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Hmmm. Use of the cloning tool gets one "close to the edge"?
With 340+ challenge entries I have tried numerous scenarios, but generally I find that I don't need to worry about cloning in most cases because I've considered my shot in advance, composed to eliminate "minor imperfections", and don't rely on post-processing to fix sloppy compositions. |
If that is the case then we should be expecting near perfect images from you. I can't wait to see.
Let's say that you have an image all thought out and you have planned it all week or even years in advance just waiting for the right time to come to shoot it again and you take the shot. You submit the image days before rollover and 4 hours before roll over you have to go get ice-cream and pickles for your pregnant wife from the store 12 miles away and you decide to take your camera incase you see something worth shooting. When you get there to DO see something better fitting your challenge and you shoot it, with 2 hours to go before rollover you have to do some slight cloning and you’re not sure so you would like to submit a request to SC to make sure it's ok. I'll be the first to tell you that they won't email you back in time.
I don't wish bad luck for anyone in any case but I would like to see your currently entry get DQ'd just because what you thought you cloned out was allowed but after close and careful consideration it was DQ'd because SC thought that what you cloned out was too prominent. When that happens I would LOVE to hear what you have to say then.
If you don't want to try and improve your images with a little editing then that is fine, I have nothing against that what so ever. And in reality I don't want to see you get a DQ on your hands but just for the experience I would like to see how you feel after wards.
Barry, I have nothing against you or anyone else here for that matter and I always thought you were a pretty cool guy. You're fairly easy to get along with and people respect that, so do I. All I'm saying is until you have had it happen to you, I don't think you should talk about it.
Message edited by author 2008-04-06 19:04:01.
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04/06/2008 07:03:27 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
It surprises me that someone as loudly vocal with their opinions as you are would have an issue with another member expressing his. |
By all means I don't have a problem with him expressing anything. I'm only stating that every time this comes up it's the same answers. |
Huh. Just like you. So are you going to stop posting the same opinions, or do you think that, perhaps, you have something new to add. Or even that maybe someone hasn't seen your opinion, so you should continue to contribute to conversations?
Message edited by author 2008-04-06 19:04:05.
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04/06/2008 07:05:04 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Huh. Just like you. So are you going to stop posting the same opinions, or do you think that, perhaps, you have something new to add. Or even that maybe someone hasn't seen your opinion, so you should continue to contribute to conversations? |
Maybe, If you want me to stop just say stop. I'm sorry I have a problem about people getting bent over by people that make the rules. If you want to bent over and take it by all means, that's your business. I personally don't want too.
Message edited by author 2008-04-06 19:06:51.
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04/06/2008 07:38:03 PM · #110 |
stop
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
If you want me to stop just say stop. |
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04/06/2008 07:46:53 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
Maybe, If you want me to stop just say stop. I'm sorry I have a problem about people getting bent over by people that make the rules. If you want to bent over and take it by all means, that's your business. I personally don't want too. |
Simple solution; don't break the rules. |
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04/06/2008 09:31:27 PM · #112 |
 BeeCee says,
Simple solution; don't break the rules.
In my opinion, that’s the point of this discussion. How to keep from breaking the rules. Now, in  GeneralE’s example of border pixels, it wasn’t whether it was 5, 10, or 50 pixels, it was any pixels in the forbidden area. Sure it was accidental. Still, it was unarguably against the rules and a DQ resulted.
If one doesn’t know what the rules are, for example in the cloning discussion where it seems to be a matter of degree, and that degree is to be determined image by image by majority vote of the Council, a careful competitor can never be sure to stay within the rules.
Forgive me if I say this is a strike against the careful competitor who, not knowing what is ‘legal’, leaves the playing field completely.
Now, finally, a little red herring seems to be drawn through this thread.
“what the heck, it’s just a DQ”. There wasn’t cheating, or anything like that, the entry just didn’t past muster.
A DQ is a DQ. Nobody wants one. Certainly not if it can be avoided.
And I’ll be careful to add, I have no ax to grind in this discussion, except for once in the far distant past, I don’t do props that must be cloned out; (I couldn’t whack a nail in straight if I tried) I just think this situation isn’t quite fair.
Message edited by author 2008-04-06 21:35:10. |
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04/06/2008 09:47:06 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
A DQ is a DQ. Nobody wants one. |
 Nobody doesnt want a DQ why do you think they do?
Matt
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04/06/2008 10:05:57 PM · #114 |
So do we just say clone whatever you want? Or, no cloning? Because I haven't seen any good, workable suggestions on how to clarify it better, just repeated complaints by a voiciferous few.
We all know all too well how they feel. I'm sure SC is working on it. I'm sure that if anyone has any good ideas they'd welcome it. But I'm not sure anything is being accomplished with repeated threads saying the same things.
So now, since I don't have the magic answer, I'll not add any extra type to the thread :) |
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04/06/2008 10:10:51 PM · #115 |
Okay, I'm finished with this one too.
As you say, the message is out there.
Still, if someone doesn't keep such items on the front burner
occasionally, these things end up on the nice long
'to do' list and are forgotten. |
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04/06/2008 10:11:02 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Forgive me if I say this is a strike against the careful competitor ... I just think this situation isn’t quite fair. |
It's clear that this is a subjective rule where the degree of change may determine legality, and it should be pretty obvious from a cursory search of the forum threads and challenge results that there have been controversial, split decisions in the past. Further, we explicitly provide a mechanism for giving an informal SC opinion before the submission deadline so that the photographer can reshoot, re-edit, or take an acknowleded risk.
If someone waits to execute their complex set-up shot until it's too late to get such an opinion, well, I think that's just another of the penalties we procrastinators pay ... :-( |
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04/06/2008 10:16:37 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
By all means I don't have a problem with him expressing anything. I'm only stating that every time this comes up it's the same answers. |
Huh. Just like you. So are you going to stop posting the same opinions, or do you think that, perhaps, you have something new to add. Or even that maybe someone hasn't seen your opinion, so you should continue to contribute to conversations? |
Maybe, If you want me to stop just say stop. I'm sorry I have a problem about people getting bent over by people that make the rules. If you want to bent over and take it by all means, that's your business. I personally don't want too. |
No. I don't mind anyone raising whatever opinion they want. I was trying to point out that your opinions are well-established, yet you continue to make new points. Therefore, you shouldn't tell anyone else to stop posting simply because you've seen their arguments before.
Message edited by author 2008-04-06 22:26:46.
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04/06/2008 10:32:47 PM · #118 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Phil:
Replacing a background peeking around the edge is grounds for dq? |
Arcanist appeared to suggest that we should be able to clone OUT anything. Thus, if a Peep were placed on a large boulder, it should be OK to clone out the boulder as long as it's replaced with the background you see around the edges. |
Scalvert, I've been here long enough and posted enough times to say that you know damn well that is not what I meant with my post. I specifically noted setups that accomplish the end results that all of these images have very easily pulled off with a bit of planning, structure and solid use of photographic tools that are now in software and are no longer limited to enlargers, slides and multiple exposures with pieces of paper blotting out certain areas.
Would someone try to pull your boulder trick? Yes and they would be penalized. Should the light from Dr. Jones or the booms and wires mentioned in this thread (that by the way seem obviously placed to achieve a desired effect with a later intent of removal) be allowed to be removed? Yeah. That's my opinion. You'll notice that I don't take the time to set up shots like that. I'm too busy over graining and over sharpening, to pull off the illusion effects that structures can achieve.
Apologies for mentioning my opinion and allowing someone else to put words in my mouth. I'll just go back to lurking and accepting things the way they are.
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04/06/2008 10:58:09 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by sfalice:
Okay, I'm finished with this one too.
As you say, the message is out there.
Still, if someone doesn't keep such items on the front burner
occasionally, these things end up on the nice long
'to do' list and are forgotten. |
isn't that the truth. |
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04/06/2008 10:59:29 PM · #120 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
No. I don't mind anyone raising whatever opinion they want. I was trying to point out that your opinions are well-established, yet you continue to make new points. Therefore, you shouldn't tell anyone else to stop posting simply because you've seen their arguments before. |
I never told anyone to not post what they feel. All I said is it's nothing we haven't already heard. |
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04/06/2008 11:03:55 PM · #121 |
Besides if someone were to pull off the boulder trick I think that would be removing a MAJOR element of the photograph. We should have just gone back to the original wording on that one. If a phone pole can be removed I don't see why a boom arm can't be. They might be different in size in real life but in an image it's about 2 inches of nothingness.
You're talking apples and oranges. |
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04/06/2008 11:13:05 PM · #122 |
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Scalvert, I've been here long enough and posted enough times to say that you know damn well that is not what I meant with my post. |
Apparently not, or I wouldn't have responded.
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Would someone try to pull your boulder trick? Yes and they would be penalized. |
Absent any restriction on what can be cloned out, they would NOT be penalized.
Originally posted by Arcanist:
Should the light from Dr. Jones or the booms and wires mentioned in this thread (that by the way seem obviously placed to achieve a desired effect with a later intent of removal) be allowed to be removed? Yeah. That's my opinion. |
Rules cannot reasonably be based a photographer's unknowable intent or your personal opinion. |
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04/06/2008 11:26:48 PM · #123 |
Originally posted by Dirt_Diver:
...if someone were to pull off the boulder trick I think that would be removing a MAJOR element of the photograph. We should have just gone back to the original wording on that one. If a phone pole can be removed I don't see why a boom arm can't be. |
This entry was DQ'd for removing a similar boom under the Major Elements rule. |
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04/06/2008 11:54:29 PM · #124 |
These threads blow my mind. Scalvert will sit and answer questions all day long, and instead of taking information and learning people just continue to bash and whine. Now to get this out of the way early. No Dirt_Diver I do not have a ribbon, I do not have a DQ, so therefore according to you I shouldn't even be speaking since I "can have no idea" what it feels like. However, this site is a CONTEST, and a CONTEST has rules. They are the most workable rules I have ever seen for a photo site. If you don't like the RULES OF THE CONTEST, play by them, suggest better rules, or take your ball and go home. In the end there will always be a subjective element to this site. Not only do the voters vote subjectively but the SC has to judge DQ requests subjectively. It is the way the game is played. So, please please please stop beating the horse that is so dead that it is no longer present. We all know you got DQ'ed and that you feel like you got screwed. We all know that some people agreed with you and some people didn't. Just like the SC. In the end more SC and also more site members felt like your shot deserved a DQ. Time to move on from either the DQ or the site. But constantly hijacking threads to vent your anger probably will never garner the results you desire.
The site is wonderful to learn and compete, but in the end you win a virtual ribbon from a virtual place. I wish for us all more important life achievements than a DPC blue, red, yellow, or even brown. |
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04/06/2008 11:58:38 PM · #125 |
| Correction: There is NOTHING ... I say NOTHING more important than a virtual ribbon from DPC. I have 4, count em .....4 ribbons! 3 red and one blue. My red ones have made me a nice pair of virtual red mitties and I'm working on my Blue Booties when I get another two blues. ;-P |
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