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03/18/2008 02:03:33 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by ryand:
That is a really weak argument, considering that it is a personal attack, rather than staying on subject. Thank you though for assuming I'm naive because I'm 16. |
You are right, that is wrongheaded of me, and I apologize. Though to be fair, I think believing that about waterboarding is naive, regardless of age. |
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03/18/2008 02:05:23 PM · #27 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by frisca:
there is an ongoing discussion about waterboarding already..do you really need to further derail this thread about the election? |
Do you think the US use of torture isn't going to be a significant part of this particular election cycle ? |
Don't be obtuse, Gordon. The election is about many things, that does not mean this thread is a watershed. |
I didn't realise threads in rant had to stay strictly on topic. This one seems to have strayed from the comment made by Obama's preacher pretty much straight from the first response though. Unless there's another reason David thinks people should change their vote today that I'm missing. |
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03/18/2008 02:06:29 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by citymars:
Originally posted by ryand:
That is a really weak argument, considering that it is a personal attack, rather than staying on subject. Thank you though for assuming I'm naive because I'm 16. |
You are right, that is wrongheaded of me, and I apologize. Though to be fair, I think believing that about waterboarding is naive, regardless of age. |
fair enough, I'm fine with you thinking that, I know I'm not gonna change that either, but I don't appreciate being called naive.
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03/18/2008 02:07:16 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by frisca:
there is an ongoing discussion about waterboarding already..do you really need to further derail this thread about the election? |
Do you think the US use of torture isn't going to be a significant part of this particular election cycle ? |
Don't be obtuse, Gordon. The election is about many things, that does not mean this thread is a watershed. |
I didn't realise threads in rant had to stay strictly on topic. This one seems to have strayed from the comment made by Obama's preacher pretty much straight from the first response though. Unless there's another reason David thinks people should change their vote today that I'm missing. |
They don't, Gordon, but it sure would be nice for a "rant" discussion to actually have a real topic, and not a meandering mismash of thoughts and ideas that are tangentially related.
Here is Gordon's thread on waterboarding if anyone is interested. Just because a thread went off topic, doesn't mean it can't get back on track. Even if its in rant. |
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03/18/2008 02:08:10 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by ryand:
Originally posted by Gordon:
The fallacy in the 'immediate threat' argument is that you don't get information that's useful. You'll get information, any information, just not useful or true information. There are techniques, other than torture, that have been shown to be more effective in these situations. Life isn't 24. |
Shoot, if someones hanging me underwater, I'm sure as heck gonna spill my guts. It's been proven to work. These people are trying to kill us, I'm not sure we should exactly give them the same rights that our citizens have anyways. |
Yup, you'll say anything to have it stop. That's been proven.
There are some lines that decent people shouldn't cross, religious or otherwise. |
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03/18/2008 02:10:41 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by frisca:
They don't, Gordon, but it sure would be nice for a "rant" discussion to actually have a real topic, and not a meandering mismash of thoughts and ideas that are tangentially related. |
I guess it could happen. It'd be the first one in 5 years though. |
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03/18/2008 02:11:30 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by ryand:
fair enough, I'm fine with you thinking that, I know I'm not gonna change that either, but I don't appreciate being called naive. |
Yes, you made that clear! :-)
However, when I see you are 16 it gives me hope that you may change your mind someday. ;-)
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03/18/2008 02:13:06 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by frisca:
They don't, Gordon, but it sure would be nice for a "rant" discussion to actually have a real topic, and not a meandering mismash of thoughts and ideas that are tangentially related. |
I guess it could happen. It'd be the first one in 5 years though. |
I don't know about that...the thread I linked above on waterboarding stayed on topic very well. ;) Must be something about the OP... |
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03/18/2008 02:52:56 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
There are some lines that decent people shouldn't cross, religious or otherwise. |
And most of those lines are very fuzzy, which is why we argue...
Is waterboarding a known bad guy in an attempt to save lives any worse then a late term abortion (or any abortion)?
(for the record i have no strong beliefs either way on either topic)
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03/19/2008 12:23:24 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
You can change your vote any time you like David, just click the little circle beside 'Clinton' and it'll move on over from Obama. |
Well I'll be jiggered. I didn't know you could change your vote. Have all the polls been this way?
Actually, I have no need to change mine but in light of recent develpoments I thought there might be some who realize they have no idea who Obama really is. |
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03/19/2008 01:34:47 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by Gordon:
You can change your vote any time you like David, just click the little circle beside 'Clinton' and it'll move on over from Obama. |
Well I'll be jiggered. I didn't know you could change your vote. Have all the polls been this way? |
Not sure to be honest. I think that might be new. |
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03/19/2008 01:43:20 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by David Ey:
Originally posted by Gordon:
You can change your vote any time you like David, just click the little circle beside 'Clinton' and it'll move on over from Obama. |
Well I'll be jiggered. I didn't know you could change your vote. Have all the polls been this way? |
Not sure to be honest. I think that might be new. |
Its always been there. Langdon (who schedules these polls) does have the option when creating the poll to disallow changes, but he almost NEVER pick that. |
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03/20/2008 12:13:28 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by David Ey:
Actually, I have no need to change mine but in light of recent develpoments I thought there might be some who realize they have no idea who Obama really is. |
I think you are right David. I just got around to reading the whole text of his speech. I know it changed my views. |
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03/20/2008 12:26:23 PM · #39 |
.
Message edited by author 2008-03-20 12:36:44. |
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03/20/2008 12:34:39 PM · #40 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
can you sum it up for people like me who are at work and cant read it? |
Probably not, no. He took the time to write it, it is possibly worth taking the time to read it when you have the opportunity. |
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03/20/2008 12:34:41 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
can you sum it up for people like me who are at work and cant read it? what does it say?
Originally posted by Gordon:
I think you are right David. I just got around to reading the whole text of his speech. I know it changed my views. |
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Having read it myself, I doubt that it can be "summed up" in a way that does it justice.
If Huffinton Post is blocked from your workplace, try the transcript at MSNBC.
~Terry
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03/20/2008 12:34:45 PM · #42 |
that he doesn't agree with everything his preacher says <--- gross oversimplification :)
he makes some very good points. i would recommend reading it when you get to where you can
Message edited by author 2008-03-20 12:35:14.
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03/20/2008 12:36:12 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
can you sum it up for people like me who are at work and cant read it? what does it say?
Originally posted by Gordon:
I think you are right David. I just got around to reading the whole text of his speech. I know it changed my views. |
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I think its a beautiful speech whose main message is one of hope and unity. |
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03/20/2008 12:36:25 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by karmat:
that he doesn't agree with everything his preacher says <--- gross oversimplification :) |
I think that's probably the least of what it says.
The whole sound bite thing is where political discourse ends up as a point scoring farce on cable TV, polarized into a silly team sport of 'us vs. them' |
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03/20/2008 12:41:26 PM · #45 |
who do you mean by "us" and "them"
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by karmat:
that he doesn't agree with everything his preacher says <--- gross oversimplification :) |
I think that's probably the least of what it says.
The whole sound bite thing is where political discourse ends up as a point scoring farce on cable TV, polarized into a silly team sport of 'us vs. them' |
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03/20/2008 12:45:38 PM · #46 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
who do you mean by "us" and "them" |
political discourse in the US seems to have been mostly dumbed down to the point of having to 'pick a side' in the way that anything is discussed. There's no subtlety, no nuance. The topics are complex and difficult, shaded in grey, without easy answers. Yet everyone wants a 5 second soundbite they can agree or disagree with and say 'yes' or 'no' as some sort of absolute decision.
Politics like football, or Saturday morning cartoons.
It is insulting to the electorate and embarrassing to the media that promotes it. |
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03/20/2008 12:46:37 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by Chinabun:
who do you mean by "us" and "them"
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by karmat:
that he doesn't agree with everything his preacher says <--- gross oversimplification :) |
I think that's probably the least of what it says.
The whole sound bite thing is where political discourse ends up as a point scoring farce on cable TV, polarized into a silly team sport of 'us vs. them' |
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I think  Gordon is talking about politics in general there, be it Obama/Clinton, Obama/McCain, Democrats/Republicans...
Anyway, the long and short of it is, read the speech yourself and make up your own mind what it means. The MSNBC link I posted above should work for you if the Huffington Post link that Gordon posted does not.
~Terry
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03/20/2008 12:47:38 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by frisca:
Originally posted by Chinabun:
can you sum it up for people like me who are at work and cant read it? what does it say?
Originally posted by Gordon:
I think you are right David. I just got around to reading the whole text of his speech. I know it changed my views. |
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I think its a beautiful speech whose main message is one of hope and unity. |
I think that's his main appeal in general; hope.
Unfortunately hope, by itself, doesn't solve problems.
I would love to share his hope, but without a viable plan for achieving that hope, it's no more that a fanciful wish. |
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03/20/2008 12:51:01 PM · #49 |
| I did read it. I just didnt understand what Gordon was talking about by us VS them. |
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03/20/2008 12:53:18 PM · #50 |
| i have to disagree with you, Spaz, to some extent. Plans and ideas without hope and vision are just meandering busywork designed to distract. I don't know enough about the campaign to say that Mr. Obama has NO plan, but I can't imagine that he has nothing since he appears to have a decent grasp on some of the most basic problems and issues. Sometimes all a leader has is vision and that's more than enough to carry the burden. There is nothing wrong with hope; there is a lot wrong with lack of it. |
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