| Author | Thread |
|
|
02/18/2008 03:02:42 PM · #126 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by Gordon:
So given the choice, would you, Alan, delete constructive negative comments on your images ?
If not, why do you think everyone else would ? |
No, I absolutely would not remove negative comments on my images (and the vast, vast majority of them are checked as "helpful" because if they're truly constructive criticisms, I have learned from them). I'm not going to address the second question, because I've already answered it ad nauseum above, and I'm not going to sit here and repeat myself all day. |
You still haven't answered why you think it is actually a bad thing though. |
Because it leaves a distorted record of people's reaction to the photo -- it makes the comment thread into a work of fiction -- a lie.
It'll be like the movie "review" on the poster which says "The Greatest ...!" when what the reviewer wrote was "The greatest disaster since ..."
BTW: About the comment "unatractive belly" ... this is the viewer's opinion -- it is not a statement of fact (slanderous or otherwise) about the model at all, but merely the viewer's reaction.
Depending on the esthetic tastes and cultural values of the viewer that belly could be fat or thin, spare tire or washboard abs -- whatever the viewer finds "unattractive." To put up a photo to elicit response, and then to denigrate and devalue that response when you get it, seems disingenuous if not dishonest. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:02:56 PM · #127 |
Originally posted by Qart:
This is an amateur photog site... they're NOT in the business. |
We've all teased and have been teased at every level of meaness since grade school. Some of it is just hard facts delivered less diplomatically than we'd prefer and some of it is simply mean and without factual base. It's part of life. You'll always get apologies from the decent for the indecent but some things never change. In the end everyone has to decide how much they'll allow the negative comments to affect their well being. Personally they motivate me. If you agree to be the subject in a photo that's entered into a competition online where comments are solicited this is one of the possible outcomes.
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 15:04:25. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:04:43 PM · #128 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Originally posted by Gordon:
So given the choice, would you, Alan, delete constructive negative comments on your images ?
If not, why do you think everyone else would ? |
No, I absolutely would not remove negative comments on my images (and the vast, vast majority of them are checked as "helpful" because if they're truly constructive criticisms, I have learned from them). I'm not going to address the second question, because I've already answered it ad nauseum above, and I'm not going to sit here and repeat myself all day. |
You still haven't answered why you think it is actually a bad thing though. |
Because it leaves a distorted record of people's reaction to the photo -- it makes the comment thread into a work of fiction -- a lie.
It'll be like the movie "review" on the poster which says "The Greatest ...!" when what the reviewer wrote was "The greatest disaster since ..."
BTW: About the comment "unatractive belly" ... this is the viewer's opinion -- it is not a statement of fact (slanderous or otherwise) about the model at all, but merely the viewer's reaction.
Depending on the esthetic tastes and cultural values of the viewer that belly could be fat or thin, spare tire or washboard abs -- whatever the viewer finds "unattractive." To put up a photo to elicit response, and then to denigrate and devalue that response when you get it, seems disingenuous if not dishonest. |
What if they said "next time use a white model"? Where do you draw the line? |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:05:23 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
BTW: About the comment "unatractive belly" ... this is the viewer's opinion -- it is not a statement of fact (slanderous or otherwise) about the model at all, but merely the viewer's reaction.
|
Legally, not all jurisdictions differentiate between opinion and fact.
|
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:05:54 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
What if they said "next time use a white model"? Where do you draw the line? |
Oooh, good one... |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:06:01 PM · #131 |
| By nature I'm very blunt and generally don't like people. That being said, I usually tone down my thoughts when expressing them to others. Just because I may not like something you do, and just because I don't really care what you think about my opinion doesn't mean I should make a point of being rude or insensitive. Sure the Real World can be harsh, cruel, and blunt, but that shouldn't be used as an excuse for such behavior. I don't believe in sugar-coating the whole world, but I do believe in "if you don't have anything nice to say [or you're not willing to be tactful about it], don't say anything at all." It's just common decency. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:09:21 PM · #132 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
"Because your girl's teeth are so crooked, I'd recommend portraits where she smiles with her mouth closed"
I'd like to see if there would even be a discussion if that was the comment... |
being a person with crooked teeth who is self concious about smiling in photos, I'd have no problem is someone told me that, because I know it's true. But, that is why you won't see me post a self portrait with a big toothy smile. I know it will look bad in the photo (and i'm not talented enought to find a way to make it look good), so I don't do it.
If people constantly say nothing, or lie and say they look great, how does that make me a better photographer? If I keep posting photos of my ugly teeth, keep getting low scores and no one ever says anything, is anything good accomplished?
|
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:12:00 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by Louis:
If it really is valuable, constructive criticism then maybe leave it but err on the side of supporting the photographers. |
Which photographers... the ones giving or receiving the comments? If you're concerned about a model's feelings, then PM the commenter and politely say so. Unless it's an obvious ToS violation, your first response to an offending comment should be talking to the person who wrote it, not running to mom and dad. Many people don't realize that their post could be offensive and will gladly rephrase their comment out of consideration.
While you might not see the harm in allowing an entrant to delete criticism on his or her own shot, the people posting actual critiques are the rarest kind of voter around here. When that voter's comments get deleted for failing to sufficiently idolize every photo, then the voter will likely decide not to bother and everyone one else who welcomes criticism loses. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:13:04 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
What if they said "next time use a white model"? Where do you draw the line? |
Given the background and lighting that is a very valid comment. Just as suggesting a red head or a blond would be. Just as it would be okay to say you should have used green apples in that still life, or pink roses instead of white.
|
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:13:22 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
"Because your girl's teeth are so crooked, I'd recommend portraits where she smiles with her mouth closed"
I'd like to see if there would even be a discussion if that was the comment... |
being a person with crooked teeth who is self concious about smiling in photos, I'd have no problem is someone told me that, because I know it's true. But, that is why you won't see me post a self portrait with a big toothy smile. I know it will look bad in the photo (and i'm not talented enought to find a way to make it look good), so I don't do it.
If people constantly say nothing, or lie and say they look great, how does that make me a better photographer? If I keep posting photos of my ugly teeth, keep getting low scores and no one ever says anything, is anything good accomplished? |
OK, you're thick skinned, BUT... we're not talking about Self Portraits.
I for one have taken my share of criticism over a few of my SP's. (Cheese maybe). We;re talking about third parties here - people that have not asked to be judged.
|
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:14:28 PM · #136 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Louis:
If it really is valuable, constructive criticism then maybe leave it but err on the side of supporting the photographers. |
Which photographers... the ones giving or receiving the comments? If you're concerned about a model's feelings, then PM the commenter and politely say so. Unless it's an obvious ToS violation, your first response to an offending comment should be talking to the person who wrote it, not running to mom and dad. Many people don't realize that their post could be offensive and will gladly rephrase their comment out of consideration.
While you might not see the harm in allowing an entrant to delete criticism on his or her own shot, the people posting actual critiques are the rarest kind of voter around here. When that voter's comments get deleted for failing to sufficiently idolize every photo, then the voter will likely decide not to bother and everyone one else who welcomes criticism loses. |
Right, so part of the process should be to allow the voter to change the offending comment. If they refuse then delete it if it's not a constructive criticism of the photograph. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:14:29 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
When that voter's comments get deleted for failing to sufficiently idolize every photo, then the voter will likely decide not to bother and everyone one else who welcomes criticism loses. |
I know this thread has convinced me that nobody values criticism on their pictures and that most everyone would delete anything that didn't tell them they were great. I don't know why anyone would bother if that's the prevailing view.
|
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:15:36 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
If I keep posting photos of my ugly teeth, keep getting low scores and no one ever says anything, is anything good accomplished? |
If you already feel that your teeth (or whatever) are ugly, you don't need anyone else to tell you so. If, on the other hand, you feel they're fine just the way they are, there's no need for someone else to come along and bash you for it (thus lowering your self-esteem and harming your heretofore satisfactory self-image).
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 15:15:54. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:16:47 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Megatherian:
What if they said "next time use a white model"? Where do you draw the line? |
Given the background and lighting that is a very valid comment. Just as suggesting a red head or a blond would be. Just as it would be okay to say you should have used green apples in that still life, or pink roses instead of white. |
It's not valid at all. "Use a rimlight to separate your model from the background" is constructive.
To be honest and open with you, you are definitely showing your inexperience with working with human subjects.
|
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:18:09 PM · #140 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Qart:
You don't use models often do you. There's a new level of protectiveness that arises when you use models. Often times they are young family members who can be very impressionable. Imagine getting a comment about an image of your daughter which states... 'too bad her eyes are too far apart'. How eager would you be to show her the results of her efforts.
It's great to talk about things as absolutes... when you haven't got someone's feelings on the line. Leroy is DEAD ON and it's a change that I've felt was needed for a long time. |
Actually I don't, but personally speaking, if I post a photo of myself nude, comments such as (note I'm not saying these do or don't apply to me):
"butt is too hairy"
"shave your models back"
"unattractive belly"
"too skinny"
"eyes too close"
"too muscular" (this one probably applies to me) :)
are not going to offend me. If your model can't take it, they should not be a model and should not have photos posted pubicly. The real world isn't all roses. |
how do any of those comments help you as a photographer though? This isn't a model critique site. |
Should all comments about the model be eliminated then? I see comments about how beautiful, cute, hot, etc.. a model or subject is all the time on this site, yet that is deemed acceptable. These do not contribute to the photographers learning either, yet I see them marked helpful frequently. I'm on the side that $20 whole is unaccaptable and that some of people have a major issue with tack when expressing themselves, but there has to be some room for a person to explain why they don't like the picture, and some times that is b/c of the model/subject. Trevor~ |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:20:25 PM · #141 |
Originally posted by iamkmaniam:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by iamkmaniam:
I don't mean to throw gasoline on a fire, but there was another thread where Leroy commented that his model had "Junk in her trunk" I though this was rude and was blasted for saying that I though this was slanderous. To me that statement means Fat AS* Now he's complaining that some else commented that his model had a belly. I think thats a double standard. I beleive that the photographer is no longer able to be objective with photos containing these models.
Kevin
Edit to post link
//www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=736932&highlight=porn |
Um yeah he said it about his own model and she is a friend of his and they were playing around. Hardly the same thing dude. |
So what your saying is that if a friend leaves a derogatory comment it's OK but if you don't know the person it's not. A bad or offensive comment is the same no matter who leaves it. I don't understand your line of reasoning. |
What I am saying is that it is his friend and they were playing around and if she took no offence from what he said to her why would you? I mean come on! Plus if you read that thread, some of the woman said they would take the "junk in the trunk" as a compliment but had someone posted that comment on one of your images and you took offence then by all means you should have the right to delete it or have the SC delete it and that is after all what we are talking about. Not Leroy having some fun with his friend. I sure hope you can see the difference...
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 16:06:19. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:21:10 PM · #142 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Right, so part of the process should be to allow the voter to change the offending comment. If they refuse then delete it if it's not a constructive criticism of the photograph. |
I have no problem with that (although it still leaves 'constructive criticism' open to debate). The point, though, is that reviewers should be afforded some respect, too. Most posts reported as offensive were certainly not intended to be, and allowing people to self-delete comments creates more problems than it solves IMO. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:22:58 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by trevytrev:
...
Should all comments about the model be eliminated then? I see comments about how beautiful, cute, hot, etc.. a model or subject is all the time on this site, yet that is deemed acceptable. These do not contribute to the photographers learning either, yet I see them marked helpful frequently... |
Well that's a different topic becasue we are talking about what a photographer and his model may find offensive.
However IMO, I'd love to be able to delete all the "nice job" type comments. to me they are just boosting up a person's comment stats and don't help me at all. I don't care if a person finds my photo "nice". I want to know what I as a photographer could have done to improve it. And yes, that is often a matter of semantics but it matters non the less. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:24:58 PM · #144 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
What if they said "next time use a white model"? Where do you draw the line? |
I'd conclude that the commenter propbably had serious issues of racial prejudice, and I'd guess most other people reading the comment would too. Does that comment reflect negatively on me, the model, or the commenter?
However, if I was recreating a scene from [/i][/b]Joan D'Arc[/b][/i], and used Angela Bassett in the title role, the commenter might have a point, if only for historical reasons. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:25:21 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by Megatherian:
What if they said "next time use a white model"? Where do you draw the line? |
Given the background and lighting that is a very valid comment. Just as suggesting a red head or a blond would be. Just as it would be okay to say you should have used green apples in that still life, or pink roses instead of white. |
It's not valid at all. "Use a rimlight to separate your model from the background" is constructive.
To be honest and open with you, you are definitely showing your inexperience with working with human subjects. |
You might watch who you make that comment to ... some might find it more offensive than others.
Just a note
|
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:27:05 PM · #146 |
Good point.
Originally posted by digitalknight:
What if I delete/hide every comment I've been given - who/how does this hurt?
|
|
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:29:47 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by alanfreed:
Please put your computer screens up against your ears. I'll type in all-caps so everyone can hear, since the rest of my posts on the subject are not being read, or they are mysteriously being translated into ancient Hebrew or something along the way:
ALLOWING PEOPLE TO REMOVE COMMENTS IS A BAD THING. IT IS A BAD THING BECAUSE PEOPLE WILL USE THE OPPORTUNITY TO REMOVE ANY AND ALL COMMENTS FROM THEIR PHOTOS, MUCH IN THE SAME WAY A LOT OF PEOPLE CURRENTLY ONLY CHOOSE TO MARK COMPLIMENTARY COMMENTS AS BEING "HELPFUL."
THIS IS A BAD THING BECAUSE PEOPLE WHO SUBMIT IMAGES ARE NOT THE ONLY ONES WHO BENEFIT FROM READING THE COMMENTS. FOR EXAMPLE, I ENJOY LOOKING AT OTHER PHOTOS ON THE SITE SUBMITTED BY OTHER PHOTOGRAPHERS, AND LEARNING FROM THE CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISMS OFFERED THERE. IF THERE ARE NO CONSTRUCTIVE CRITICISMS AND JUST A BUNCH OF COMPLIMENTS, I AND ANY OTHER PERSON WHO VIEWS THE SHOT CANNOT LEARN FROM THE CONSTRUCTIVE ADVICE THAT MAY HAVE BEEN LEFT AND SUBSEQUENTLY DELETED FROM THE SHOT.
I am done. |
Alan, if I (let's use proverbial I, because I know some would like to see me go) delete the photo and or my account, would that not be taking even more away?
I hate having to throw out the baby with the bath water, but you guys do tend to halt progress at times with this backwards thinking policy.*
*I say backwards thinking, because DPC is in a minority in lack of photographer control of content related to his/her images.
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 15:33:00.
|
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:33:26 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by scalvert:
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Right, so part of the process should be to allow the voter to change the offending comment. If they refuse then delete it if it's not a constructive criticism of the photograph. |
I have no problem with that (although it still leaves 'constructive criticism' open to debate). The point, though, is that reviewers should be afforded some respect, too. Most posts reported as offensive were certainly not intended to be, and allowing people to self-delete comments creates more problems than it solves IMO. |
so lets bring this back around to a civilized debate and compromise. Just have a button that says something like "Submit for Clarity".
This would automatically generate a PM to the commenter that says something like "The photographer did not completely understand you comment or the intention it posed. Please take a moment to try and clarify your comment for better understanding. If no response is received withing 2 days the comment will automatically be placed for review by the SC and may be deleted. Please Note, comments should be directed towards the photograph and/or photographic techniques used in the photo."
In 2 days if the commenter doesn't respond THEN the SC would get involved and if the comment COULD be found to be offensive to the model then it gets deleted.
Edit, the quotes are a quick stab at it, the verbiage would need to be worked out / refined.
Also when the photographer submits a comment for clarification, the comment is then hidden until further action is taken.
If people abuse the button they would be dealt with in the same way people are dealt with who abuse DQ requests.
Message edited by author 2008-02-18 15:36:44. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:36:04 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by Megatherian:
Just have a button that says something like "Submit for Clarity"... |
That works for me. |
|
|
|
02/18/2008 03:37:00 PM · #150 |
Ya know ...
I have had comments on images that I believe were "shots at the model" as opposed to critiques of the image
for instance
"One can only dream of being a punk loser" - On my Gangsta shot - I am wondering how that can be critiquing the image
or ones that can be interpreted badly
"subject is too dark..." - On my between shots image - Really ?
I have had comments removed by SC. One that comes into mind was a comment about one on my dancer images that commented that she "looked like a 12 year old playing dress up at goodwill" NOTHING about the image and the dancer is an accomplished professional performer.
So Yea ... there does need to be a mechanism for not only removing comments but BANNING users that make them ... You can call my images crap all day ... but don't insult my models.
|
|
