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01/27/2008 06:10:23 PM · #51 |
| I still find myself personally offended. If i want to be a food critic I also have to be a great chef? If I want to review books I have to have a best seller? Why can't I make a great comment without making a great photo? I still like to comment, I still give thoughtful comments, I just can't get my own score over 5. |
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01/27/2008 06:12:44 PM · #52 |
That reminds me of this:
Those who can, do. Those who can't, teach.
Meant in a positive note - those who are currently commenting (teaching) are probably learning far more than the person receiving the comment. The commenter will soon become the doer. |
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01/27/2008 06:20:45 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by emorgan49:
I still find myself personally offended. If i want to be a food critic I also have to be a great chef? If I want to review books I have to have a best seller? Why can't I make a great comment without making a great photo? I still like to comment, I still give thoughtful comments, I just can't get my own score over 5. |
Your high score is 6.4 ... that qualifies you I think LOL, keep commenting, keep doing what makes you happy and try not to get offended by online forums. |
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01/27/2008 06:30:03 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
Proof of entry into challenges not only shows effort, but it shows progression and ability over time. Without these entries taking criticism from people seems to have much less value. |
I haven't entered a challenge in over seven months. I consider myself qualified to vote and to offer constructive comments, which I enjoy doing. There are many, many people who use this site for reasons other than entering challenges. The day any function of the site is arbitrarily taken away from me and many others like me is the day I stop paying. |
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01/27/2008 06:44:34 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by iamkmaniam:
Can you define a good photograph, I have already suggested that the "Good Photographs" end up usually not winning. |
Not personally, but the site itself provides a consensual definition through voting...so scores in challenges are an indicator of how good a photograph is on DPC.
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01/27/2008 06:46:50 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
Originally posted by iamkmaniam:
Can you define a good photograph, I have already suggested that the "Good Photographs" end up usually not winning. |
Not personally, but the site itself provides a consensual definition through voting...so scores in challenges are an indicator of how good a photograph is on DPC.
N |
No, the score is how popular they are, not how good they are. Sometimes they are one in the same though. ;o) |
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01/27/2008 06:54:06 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Hye5:
So, if I am to understand this correctly, you would like voting and commenting only from those people whose photography you like or admire? |
No - I would like voting and commenting from other photographers who are relatively actively involved with the challenges (e.g. 3 months).
Originally posted by Hye5:
You have to remember that photography is an art that is for everyone to enjoy. Anyone should be allowed to tell you why they do or do not like your entry (or work), regardless of their own talent or ability. |
But conversely there needs to be some reliability in the voting and comments, in the very least an option to separate the opinions from the constructive criticism - and then perhaps further to restrict the different types of comment to allow members to not be influenced by bystanders/non camera owners/opinion voters whose comments don't provide any value.
Originally posted by Hye5:
Every opinion has some value (yes, even the trolls as you define them). |
That's where we disagree.
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Message edited by author 2008-01-27 18:54:19. |
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01/27/2008 07:01:50 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Louis:
I haven't entered a challenge in over seven months. I consider myself qualified to vote and to offer constructive comments, which I enjoy doing. |
Ok, maybe 3 months is a bit strict, but you get the point. You have a portfolio and an established set of images and imho that qualifies you to have an opinion and to cast votes. That's very different to someone who has maybe entered one or two challenges over the past 2 years, or worse yet, none at all and then has a less than average voting record.
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01/27/2008 07:04:21 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by emorgan49:
I still find myself personally offended. If i want to be a food critic I also have to be a great chef? If I want to review books I have to have a best seller? Why can't I make a great comment without making a great photo? I still like to comment, I still give thoughtful comments, I just can't get my own score over 5. |
And if you wanted to learn how to be a Formula One race car driver you wouldn't take advice from someone who has watched it on television or played the videogame - you'd want constructive criticism from other car drivers in the very least, ideally some with good track records. Why? Because they know what it takes to drive, the eye, the reactions etc. There's an appreciation that comes from participation...and that's where the value and insight is imho.
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01/27/2008 07:21:41 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
But conversely there needs to be some reliability in the voting and comments, in the very least an option to separate the opinions from the constructive criticism - and then perhaps further to restrict the different types of comment to allow members to not be influenced by bystanders/non camera owners/opinion voters whose comments don't provide any value.
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i can separate opinions from constructive criticism the way it is now...without restricting who is allowed to vote. the idea that members are influenced by voters whose comments have no value is insulting. |
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01/27/2008 07:23:41 PM · #61 |
Why restrict anyone from commenting or voting? That seems absurd. Thats one of the main pushes of the site. People can easily be intimidated when they try and join this site, and the easiest way to start getting involved is voting and commenting. How would they begin then? The better approach is to encourage comments from everyone, the more the merrier good or bad. Then it is up to you to decide how much weight to give the comment. All opinions should atleast be given some consideration and food for thought and should be allowed to be expressed. You put your entry in a challenge for all to comment on. You said yourself, this is a learning site. IMO one of the best ways to learn is to comment on the photographs that grab your attention and express what is you like or dislike about it. You get a couple bad votes, let it go, couple comments you don't agree with, move on. No need to change the system.
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01/27/2008 07:25:13 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
And if you wanted to learn how to be a Formula One race car driver you wouldn't take advice from someone who has watched it on television or played the videogame - you'd want constructive criticism from other car drivers in the very least, ideally some with good track records. Why? Because they know what it takes to drive, the eye, the reactions etc. There's an appreciation that comes from participation...and that's where the value and insight is imho.
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And I can say that unless constructive criticism is specifically asked for, the top dogs in the ribbon races won't comment on challenge images unless they are probably winners. Nothing against them, as I don't comment nearly as much as I should, but, you won't get the comments unless it's asked form. The middle of the pack images and just outright not so good images don't get a lot of comments.
Message edited by author 2008-01-27 19:28:11. |
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01/27/2008 07:25:53 PM · #63 |
You actually learn more by commenting than by receiving comments.
If you don't want comments, don't enter. At present this is the only solution to avoid comments from those you deem unworthy. |
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01/27/2008 07:39:26 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
But conversely there needs to be some reliability in the voting and comments, in the very least an option to separate the opinions from the constructive criticism - and then perhaps further to restrict the different types of comment to allow members to not be influenced by bystanders/non camera owners/opinion voters whose comments don't provide any value. |
What you seem to ignore is that photography, in general, is an art which targets the masses at large. Therefore, it is the opinions of those masses which guide you in determining whether you are able to satisfy what that market demands in a good photograph (again, the definition of 'good' depends on what your target is).
DPC and the challenges are geared towards the masses (in other words, there is no requirement you be a photographer to join or participate), and therefore, even the votes and comments of those who are not talented photographers are valid. Even if they are not expressly constructive, a low vote or cursory comment is helpful.
On the other hand, if you want constructive criticism in a certain area such as technicals or portraiture or lighting, perhaps entering a challenge is not the appropriate venue. You can still post a photo to a forum and ask for sepcific constructive comments from the learned members.
I may agree to a certain extent with your comments related to receiving constructive criticism from learned and talented photographers, but the challenges are not place to post if you are looking for that kind of response. However, I maintain that the challenges do provide valuable feedback as to the mass acceptance/opinion on a photo, even with nothing more than a low vote or cursory comment. Pick your target audience and post in the appropriate place.
Chuck
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01/27/2008 07:49:12 PM · #65 |
| plus it's just a lot of fun entering challenges and getting frustrated and waiting for rollover! |
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01/27/2008 07:52:43 PM · #66 |
To anyone insulted or put out by my "provide any value" comment - what I should have said it "provide any learning value". No offense intended.
I hear what people are saying and I'll shut up. I'd be in favour of those commenting changes that one of the SC mentioned if nothing else can be done.
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01/27/2008 07:55:20 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by cryingdragon:
And I can say that unless constructive criticism is specifically asked for, the top dogs in the ribbon races won't comment on challenge images unless they are probably winners. |
That's not true (at least in my experience) - I've always been a way off the pace in terms of ribbons and I've had some really experienced/ribboned comments on challenge photos.
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Message edited by author 2008-01-27 19:56:09. |
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01/27/2008 07:58:21 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
To anyone insulted or put out by my "provide any value" comment - what I should have said it "provide any learning value". No offense intended.
I hear what people are saying and I'll shut up. I'd be in favour of those commenting changes that one of the SC mentioned if nothing else can be done.
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Not offended at all, and if nothing else, I think the discussion itself provides value to everyone following. I think with this and many of the other score/commenting/voting threads, we all have to realize that it is OK for people to have different opinions. These threads and discussions always serve as reminders :)
Chuck
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01/27/2008 09:36:53 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
But conversely there needs to be some reliability in the voting and comments, in the very least an option to separate the opinions from the constructive criticism - and then perhaps further to restrict the different types of comment to allow members to not be influenced by bystanders/non camera owners/opinion voters whose comments don't provide any value.
N |
Originally posted by Quasimojo:
And if you wanted to learn how to be a Formula One race car driver you wouldn't take advice from someone who has watched it on television or played the videogame - you'd want constructive criticism from other car drivers in the very least, ideally some with good track records. Why? Because they know what it takes to drive, the eye, the reactions etc. There's an appreciation that comes from participation...and that's where the value and insight is imho.
N |
If you're only wanting to learn the technicals of photography your comments are valid.
Personally, I also want to know if and how I affect my viewers emotionally. Art SHOULD touch people, cause a reaction, an emotion. To me, "nice shot" is rather a kiss of death. I've entered challenges that I hoped would disturb people, and low scores and comments showed that I succeeded.
But it sounds like I shouldn't be interested in these opinions, but only comments that help me with the technicals of the shot?
I think your Formula One analogy would be more fitting here if you'd used something like figure skating. Yes, you want to learn your technicals from pros in the sport, but you also need to listen to your audience (who may have never laced on a pair of skates in their lives) to learn what will do well artistically. |
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01/27/2008 09:54:05 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
To me, "nice shot" is rather a kiss of death. |
Yup. How about a comment that I recently got that just said "interesting". That's what I say when I want to give someone an honest opinion, but also avoid hurting their feelings. At least it was a comment on a shot that's been scoring super mediocre. |
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01/27/2008 09:57:45 PM · #71 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
To me, "nice shot" is rather a kiss of death. |
Yup. How about a comment that I recently got that just said "interesting". That's what I say when I want to give someone an honest opinion, but also avoid hurting their feelings. At least it was a comment on a shot that's been scoring super mediocre. |
how about...'it has a lot of personality'?
now i'm gonna go back and see if you said any of mine were 'interesting'. :D
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01/27/2008 10:07:31 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by yospiff:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
To me, "nice shot" is rather a kiss of death. |
Yup. How about a comment that I recently got that just said "interesting". That's what I say when I want to give someone an honest opinion, but also avoid hurting their feelings. At least it was a comment on a shot that's been scoring super mediocre. |
Be happy that someone even commented. If I take time to comment on anybody's photo, I would like that the other person appreciates it. Evenif I write 'interesting' or any one word.
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01/27/2008 10:46:57 PM · #73 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I think your Formula One analogy would be more fitting here if you'd used something like figure skating. Yes, you want to learn your technicals from pros in the sport, but you also need to listen to your audience (who may have never laced on a pair of skates in their lives) to learn what will do well artistically. |
Do you really think that ice skating professionals aim their routines at the crowd, or the judges? They take their advice from previous winners and people with experience, to help guide their artistic (and technical) efforts. Yes, pleasing the crowd influences the judges, but ultimately they are performing for judges and the advice comes from experience, not random ice skating fans by how loud they cheer.
Let's say you have a routine. You're not sure if it's good enough for the olympics. Are you going to perform it at a few national shows and gauge crowd appreciation, or are you going to perform it for some respected skating elders for critical evaluation? I know which one I'd prefer. In the very least I'd like the opinion of other skaters before the general unskating public.
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01/27/2008 10:59:33 PM · #74 |
| I always ask myself "What would Brian Boitano do?" and make my decisions on based on that. |
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01/27/2008 11:02:24 PM · #75 |
I thought the question was:
"What would Britney Spears do?" |
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