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 04/03/2008 11:24:47 AM · #351
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... it's unrealistic, irresponsible and immoral for the US to simply pack up and come home. We broke it, we have to fix it. Regardless of the cost.

How about considering "fixing" it without blasting it into submission?

The population of Iraq (according to the CIA World Factbook) is:
27,499,638 (July 2007 est.) NOTE: I don't know if that includes expatriate refugees

At the $12 billion (borrowed) dollars we are currently spending each month that works out to

$436/capita/month

Iraq's Budget:

revenues: $42.3 billion NOTE: This is an annual figure, not monthly as above
expenditures: $48.4 billion (FY08 est.)

That calculates out to revenues of
$127/capita/month

If we're going to spend that kind of money for the foreseeable future, it seems to me that we could just give every Iraqi man, woman and child $250/month, and tell them to put down their guns and go back to their jobs* -- they'd immediately double their income, while we'd still have almost $200/month left over to give to our own kids, schools, and disadvantaged.

*Unemployment is 18% -- maybe some of them could use the stipend to create some.


By no means do I think the current course of action is the best means to the desired end.
 04/03/2008 11:28:50 AM · #352
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... Obama's "vision of hope" will not be cheap either....


Obama's "vision of hope" is likely a better investment than munitions and armory though. And If you take the money from those who have more than they need, it might hurt less overall.


Perhaps it is a better investment, but, all I have heard is the vision part and nothing about how to make it a reality. I'm very reluctant to invest heavily in a complete unknown.
 04/03/2008 11:50:35 AM · #353
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... Obama's "vision of hope" will not be cheap either....


Obama's "vision of hope" is likely a better investment than munitions and armory though. And If you take the money from those who have more than they need, it might hurt less overall.


Perhaps it is a better investment, but, all I have heard is the vision part and nothing about how to make it a reality. I'm very reluctant to invest heavily in a complete unknown.


Along these lines, I have wondered at times if the Obama phenomenon is a liberal parallel to the G.W.Bush run to office. He's great in a popularity contest, but perhaps that shouldn't be what qualifies him to run the country. Don't get me wrong, I actually think any of the three candidates are going to be a significant improvement over Bush and Obama may very well be qualified, but for now I don't know of anything concrete that tells me so.

Another issue Spazmo brought up earlier that really strikes home (MI) with me is that feeling of being disenfranchised by the democratic party because our state wants to make up its own mind about primary dates. The dems can sort out their own rules and penalize members of their party if they must, but they should have thought much more carefully before disenfranchising the innocent voters of my state.

The right to vote is more important to me than any of the issues these candidates are squabbling about and I'm not sure I can vote for a part that has taken my vote away (not to mention the crazy concept of "superdelegates" having a vote worth 10,000 citizen's votes). I understand they are not a gov't agency that owes me an equal right to vote, but morally I believe they do owe me that much. I may decide to vote on pragmatics rather than principle in the end, but right now I am having difficulty swallowing a vote for the dems based on that issue. I wouldn't be too surprised if the Dems have already thrown away this election because of their treatment of FL & MI.
 04/03/2008 12:43:08 PM · #354
Originally posted by jbsmithana:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... Obama's "vision of hope" will not be cheap either....


Obama's "vision of hope" is likely a better investment than munitions and armory though. And If you take the money from those who have more than they need, it might hurt less overall.


Exactly.

And of course you could probalby make an argument that the munitions and armory costs are worth it if they were making the US safer but we all know that is not the case. I'd feel much better about our country going into debt that my children will have to pay off if they at least were getting some social benefit from it.


The fact is that Iraq will not simply "go away" overnight and free up billions of dollars for social programs. There does need to be an exit strategy and a plan to have the Iraqi Government stand on its own. However, that is unlikely to happen in a short time. As distasteful as the current situation in Iraq is, it will be even worse if the US simply packs up and goes home ASAP. I'd rather spend the money now than have, in addition to the debt, passed on to our children, the legacy of another failed state. Think about what happened with the US fighting a proxy war with the Soviets in Afghanistan during the 1980's. Once the Soviets went home, the US packed up and went home as well, leaving Afghanistan in total disarray. I would think the long term consequences of that and the lesson to be learned are fairly evident and too costly to repeat in Iraq.

04/03/2008 03:49:32 PM · #355
Here's a follow-up question for everyone...

Are there any American citizens here who were dedicated supporters of Bush (either for his first term, his second, or both), who will admit to it, but who will also admit to regretting giving him and his administration their vote?

We had a disastrous provincial government here (Ontario) a few years back, and I still can't find anyone who will admit to voting for them!
04/03/2008 04:32:01 PM · #356
Originally posted by Fromac:
Here's a follow-up question for everyone...

Are there any American citizens here who were dedicated supporters of Bush (either for his first term, his second, or both), who will admit to it, but who will also admit to regretting giving him and his administration their vote?

We had a disastrous provincial government here (Ontario) a few years back, and I still can't find anyone who will admit to voting for them!


You talking about Harris? He was the only politician that actually did what he said he was going to do. What do you think people were voting for when they voted him in?

Back to the US election...
 04/03/2008 05:24:37 PM · #357
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... Obama's "vision of hope" will not be cheap either....


Obama's "vision of hope" is likely a better investment than munitions and armory though. And If you take the money from those who have more than they need, it might hurt less overall.


Where do you draw the line at those who have "more than they need"?
 04/03/2008 05:56:42 PM · #358
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... Obama's "vision of hope" will not be cheap either....


Obama's "vision of hope" is likely a better investment than munitions and armory though. And If you take the money from those who have more than they need, it might hurt less overall.


Where do you draw the line at those who have "more than they need"?


Well, I was waiting for someone to call me on this. Good for you, Daryl!
What I should have said, but didn't: "And if you take the money from those who squander it, it might hurt less.." The line should be drawn after much research and consultation, intelligently, not just idealistically, IMO.
 04/03/2008 06:30:22 PM · #359
Originally posted by LoudDog:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
... Obama's "vision of hope" will not be cheap either....


Obama's "vision of hope" is likely a better investment than munitions and armory though. And If you take the money from those who have more than they need, it might hurt less overall.


Where do you draw the line at those who have "more than they need"?


If you asked the American people I'm sure the vast majority would suggest a dollar figure that is above what they make. Perhaps someday we will live in a world that isn't based on discrimination whether it be the poor or the rich. The fact that the poor may be more effected by discrimination doesn't change the fact that discrimination is wrong in any form. As a country we should stop practicing it and maybe just maybe we might actually get somewhere.
 04/03/2008 06:59:34 PM · #360
got to fix the corruption first...

among other things.
 04/03/2008 07:37:27 PM · #361
Originally posted by superdave:
I think Obama will be the next president. Any American citizen with half a brain should be so disgusted by Bush and his administration. How could anyone vote republican after what he has done? What a joke he is!


This is very true. Any of you may want to find reasons why you will not vote for either Democratic candidate, but the reality is that if you want another 4 years of Bush policies, including a hundred more years in Iraq, tax relief for the rich, suppression of any hope for real renewable energy developments, a failing economy, and the stranglehold of special interests on our government (to mention a few), vote republican. Otherwise, you have no choice but to vote Democrat. I favor Obama simply because he represents the candidate with the fewest political debts to pay, and who is the most free of Political corruption via lobbyists and special interests. He is an obviously talented leader and if you ever take the time to listen to his interviews he actually answers questions! Thoughtfully and from an informed perspective. He is not a wishy washy politician- if you care to take the time you are able to find his position on the most important issues.
Please do not make shallow choices based on unimportant details or you will end up with another Bush.
--Jim Roussos
 04/03/2008 07:46:09 PM · #362
Oh and just as important.
VOTE AGAINST ALL CONGRESSIONAL INCUMBENTS, regardless of party affiliation. Year after year, we re-elect our own home-state Senators and Representatives because while we think Congress is doing a terrible job we figure that our guy is doing great- its all the rest that suck. Understand this- They all suck. They all got us into the current sad state of affairs by rubber stamping Bush. Shamefully no Democrat put his/her reputation on the line to speak out strongly during the first four years of Bush. They abused their power by not using it. So they ALL should go. (At least all multi-term incumbents)And no explanation needed, ALL Republican puppets must go. Remember- your Senator/ Representative sucks just as bad as mine. Give whoever the new President is a chance to succeed- He/She will need 2 new houses (or as much as we can do this time around. But be patient; get whomever you can now out, and the rest as they come up for election).
 04/03/2008 07:46:30 PM · #363
Originally posted by soup:
got to fix the corruption first...

among other things.


Since power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely we should absolutely start by desolving all political parties. They only serve to increase power to their members to the detrimiment of smaller parties not to mention that of the little people.

Message edited by author 2008-04-03 19:47:15.
 04/03/2008 07:49:37 PM · #364
Originally posted by jrjr:
Oh and just as important.
VOTE AGAINST ALL CONGRESSIONAL INCUMBENTS, regardless of party affiliation. Year after year, we re-elect our own home-state Senators and Representatives because while we think Congress is doing a terrible job we figure that our guy is doing great- its all the rest that suck. Understand this- They all suck. They all got us into the current sad state of affairs by rubber stamping Bush. Shamefully no Democrat put his/her reputation on the line to speak out strongly during the first four years of Bush. They abused their power by not using it. So they ALL should go. (At least all multi-term incumbents)And no explanation needed, ALL Republican puppets must go. Remember- your Senator/ Representative sucks just as bad as mine. Give whoever the new President is a chance to succeed- He/She will need 2 new houses (or as much as we can do this time around. But be patient; get whomever you can now out, and the rest as they come up for election).


Robert Wexler
 04/03/2008 07:56:18 PM · #365
I am a man without a candidate. I think they are ALL bad choices and I'm sick of voting for the lesser of the evils.
 04/03/2008 08:02:46 PM · #366
How about we ditch both Clinton & Obama...and draft Al Gore!! I'd jump on board with that one! I am sick to death of both them (Clinton/Obama) and they are ruining our chances of winning the white house this Fall.
 04/03/2008 08:10:17 PM · #367
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
How about we ditch both Clinton & Obama...and draft Al Gore!! I'd jump on board with that one! I am sick to death of both them (Clinton/Obama) and they are ruining our chances of winning the white house this Fall.

I think your issue lies with Clinton, Not Obama. Obama is the clear leader, she should step aside for the good of the party.
 04/03/2008 08:15:02 PM · #368
Originally posted by imagesbytlp:
How about we ditch both Clinton & Obama...and draft Al Gore!! I'd jump on board with that one! I am sick to death of both them (Clinton/Obama) and they are ruining our chances of winning the white house this Fall.


You may get part of your wish. Obama said yeserday that he would put Gore in his white house.
 04/03/2008 08:19:01 PM · #369
Originally posted by jrjr:
I favor Obama simply because he represents the candidate with the fewest political debts to pay, and who is the most free of Political corruption via lobbyists and special interests. He is an obviously talented leader and if you ever take the time to listen to his interviews he actually answers questions! Thoughtfully and from an informed perspective. He is not a wishy washy politician- if you care to take the time you are able to find his position on the most important issues.


Simply having a vision of hope isn't enough to gain my vote. He needs a plan.
 04/03/2008 08:31:52 PM · #370
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by jrjr:
I favor Obama simply because he represents the candidate with the fewest political debts to pay, and who is the most free of Political corruption via lobbyists and special interests. He is an obviously talented leader and if you ever take the time to listen to his interviews he actually answers questions! Thoughtfully and from an informed perspective. He is not a wishy washy politician- if you care to take the time you are able to find his position on the most important issues.


Simply having a vision of hope isn't enough to gain my vote. He needs a plan.


Have you looked at his website?

What politician spells out in great detail, their policies, during an election campaign?
 04/03/2008 08:48:21 PM · #371
simple enough - no ?

if you are saying that in sarcasm - you're absolutely wrong...

Originally posted by yanko:
Originally posted by soup:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
got to fix the corruption first...

among other things.

Since power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely we should absolutely start by desolving all political parties. They only serve to increase power to their members to the detrimiment of smaller parties not to mention that of the little people.


Message edited by author 2008-04-03 20:49:30.
 04/03/2008 09:07:47 PM · #372
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by jrjr:
I favor Obama simply because he represents the candidate with the fewest political debts to pay, and who is the most free of Political corruption via lobbyists and special interests. He is an obviously talented leader and if you ever take the time to listen to his interviews he actually answers questions! Thoughtfully and from an informed perspective. He is not a wishy washy politician- if you care to take the time you are able to find his position on the most important issues.


Simply having a vision of hope isn't enough to gain my vote. He needs a plan.

Do the research. Just because in-depth positions are not posited in 30 second sound-bites does not mean they do not exist. Make an effort to find the candidates' positions on key issues. It won't just come to you on TV.
 04/03/2008 09:15:59 PM · #373
I really find this entire thread to be very disturbing.

I am amused that people think that a Democrat in office will result in less spending.

I am saddened by the lack of respect that American citizens have for their president. Sure some presidents are better than others, and some may not always make decisions that we agree with, but regardless of that it is a shame when people turn to the insults that I have read here. It reminds me of watching the news clip of the president being booed on opening day in Washington this year. What a classless society we have generated to show such little respect like that.

I am amazed that everyone blames the Bush Administration for the 'failures' they perceive going on. Especially considering that both houses of the congress have been controlled by Democrats for the last two years.

If the Bush administration has failed so miserably then why hasn't congress done what they need to do to correct things? Isn't that the whole purpose of Checks and Balances? Instead it is far to easy to blame others than to do your own job.

I am amazed that the same DNC that griped in 2000 about counting every vote and the voices of everyone should be heard is the same DNC that is now saying we don't care about your vote because it was too early.

I am amazed that people will actually say Hillary should step aside and let Obama have the nomination. What good is Democracy if you want to toss it to the side to let someone get a free ticket to dance.

I am amazed that people still support Hillary after watching her on National TV defending her husband after he lied, lashing out at the "vast right-winged conspiracy against her husband."

I am amazed people support Obama after the Wright Controversy and his subsequent comments about "typical white people."

I am amazed that people support Gore after he failed to win in 2000. What has he done that is so different?

I am amazed that people blame the republicans for high gas prices, then support democrats that will add more taxes on gasoline making the prices even higher.

I am amazed the government is blamed for the housing crisis. Everyone knew it was a bubble. You couldn't log on to any major news site without reading about a bubble and fears of when it will pop.

I am amazed that people support McCain after he has demonstrated some senior person moments.

I am amazed that our country has gone from one that rallied behind our President when we were attacked to one that criticizes him, despite the fact that we haven't been attacked again.

I am amazed that people trust what they see on biased news programs that have an agenda of their own to be fact without researching truths before they make decisions.

The bottom line is you may not like policies, you may not like decisions that are made and that is fine. We all know you can't please everyone all of the time. But when you don't like these things, criticize those policies and decisions. Don't be so crass as to insult the leader of our country. You many not have voted for him, you may not like him, but have some respect for what this country is. Have some respect for the institution of the presidency. Complain about what you don't agree with, not the people you don't agree with.

When you look at it all, is today's country any different than our country of 10 years ago, 18 years ago, 19 years ago, 28 years ago, 40 years ago, 58 years ago? No. We had the same problems we have now. 10 years ago a Democrat put us into Bosnia for no benefit to our country. Unemployment was the same. We were blowing up pharmacies in the middle east in the interest of averting terrorism. 18 years ago we moved our forces to the middle east to defeat Iraq and never left. unemployment was the same. 19 years ago we went to war with Panama because of a dictator. Unemployment was the same. 28 years ago a Democrat ran the show and gas prices were at the all time high (a high that lasted for two and a half decades.) Hostages were taken in Iran and we couldn't get them back. Unemployment was the same. 40 years ago Democrats had us bogged down in a war in Vietnam, billions of dollars were spent. Unemployment was the same. Why did we ever go to Vietnam? How many lives were lost for a war that meant what to American's? 58 years ago a Democrat put us in the Korean war. Unemployment was the same.

History continues to repeat itself. The difference between today and all of those years ago was back then you didn't have 10 channels on television that do nothing but talk about issues non-stop while generating revenue for themselves. What did we all do before the likes of CNN, MSNBC, Fox News? We all survived. The same way we will survive despite what the media tells us is wrong with our country.

Sadly I will have to end this by saying that the views expressed here are entirely my own and represent the views of me and only me, and not anyone else, or any institution. I do not represent a group, or any other entity than myself.

Message edited by author 2008-04-03 21:16:52.
 04/03/2008 09:20:27 PM · #374
Originally posted by BHuseman:
The bottom line is you may not like policies, you may not like decisions that are made and that is fine. We all know you can't please everyone all of the time. But when you don't like these things, criticize those policies and decisions. Don't be so crass as to insult the leader of our country. You many not have voted for him, you may not like him, but have some respect for what this country is. Have some respect for the institution of the presidency. Complain about what you don't agree with, not the people you don't agree with.


Word.

04/03/2008 09:24:31 PM · #375
Obama or Mccain
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