Atheism in Christian societies - DPChallenge Forums

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01/03/2008 12:05:16 AM · #901

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by yanko:

Ok but your God doesn't have that love for non-believers yet you still love him anyway. So how can you say you have love for non-believers? If I said I loved Hitler but I also loved the Jews would you not see a problem with that?

God does have love for non believers. He has one simple rule and if you don't follow it then you're on your own. Not my doing.

I see no problem in loving Hitler and the Jews. I pray for my enemies everyday.

Love isn't praying that they'll change. Love is accepting who they are.

Love is thinking enough of people to hope they do change.

If my son grows up to be an axe murderer I can guarantee you that I'll love him but will hardly accept who he has become.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

01/03/2008 12:05:35 AM · #902

Originally posted by Phil:

God does have love for non believers. He has one simple rule and if you don't follow it then you're on your own. Not my doing.

...And this rule would hold true regardless of the fact that millions were never afforded the opportunity to even hear about your God.

Surely there must exit a certain degree of latitude for those poor souls who died before the advent of Christ, or are we to assume that their souls are damned to Hell for all eternity.

Ray

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

01/03/2008 12:07:23 AM · #903

A data point - on Christmas day I had to escort some co-workers to a Catholic mass, It was in a restricted access building and I have a badge, and since I was escorting, I had to stay with them. So I went to a Catholic mass for Christmas. And I have to say, that apart from the priest having a marvelous singing voice and an accent quite similar to Antonio Banderas, the thing I noted most was the frequent mention of Jesus. He got a lot of air time. This confuses me even more, then, on the whole Catholics are not Christians thing. And my dad's wife, a lifelong Catholic, seemed rather appalled at the notion she wasn't Christian.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:08:14 AM · #904

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Phil:
I'm not doing the condemning. Just believing in the one who does.

You can't wash your hands of responsibility for condemnation of others simply by believing it's true.

Yes I can and I do. I condemn no one as it's not my place to do so. I can't send you to hell. I can only tell you what God says. The rest is between you and Him.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

01/03/2008 12:12:01 AM · #905

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Phil:
I'm not doing the condemning. Just believing in the one who does.

You can't wash your hands of responsibility for condemnation of others simply by believing it's true.

Yes I can and I do.

Abbrogating your responsibility to think for yourself doesn't necessarily mean others won't expect you to.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

01/03/2008 12:16:19 AM · #906

A question - why does Man 1 care what Man 2 thinks or what his fate is? If Man 1 is happy with his faith and his fate, and Man 2 is equally happy with his non-belief, why does Man 1 care? I understand that one tenet of most religions is to share and all, but really, why would Man 1 care?

Message edited by author 2008-01-03 00:16:41.

01/03/2008 12:18:17 AM · #907

Originally posted by Phil:

I can only tell you what God says.

Is that what God is telling you directly or are you referring to the Bible? This is where my issue is with religion. How do you know the Bible and not the Qur'an or some other book written by people so long ago is the right book that describes God? I can understand how someone can arrive at believing in a god. What I don't get is how you can then take the next step and determine which of the countless descriptions of him is the right one. How did you arrive that the Bible was the right one AND why the others aren't?

Message edited by author 2008-01-03 00:20:16.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:19:21 AM · #908

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Phil:
I'm not doing the condemning. Just believing in the one who does.

You can't wash your hands of responsibility for condemnation of others simply by believing it's true.

Yes I can and I do.

Abbrogating your responsibility to think for yourself doesn't necessarily mean others won't expect you to.

Expect away.

I think for myself. Not once in here have I said, "I condemn you to hell". I just happen to believe in the one who can do it.

The doctor says, "I will give you medicine and your sickness will end in 4 days.". Since you believe him and go home and tell your neighbor what he said you now must be a doctor? No? So how does believing in the one who can judge you make me a judge?

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:20:51 AM · #909

Originally posted by Melethia:

Love.

My question to you after reading through this thread would be why does man2 care so much that man1 believes.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:22:58 AM · #910

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Phil:
I can only tell you what God says.

Is that what God is telling you directly or are you referring to the Bible? This is where my issue is with religion. How do you know the Bible and not the Qur'an or some other book written by people so long ago is the right book that describes God? I can understand how someone can arrive at believing in a god. What I don't get is how you can then take the next step and determine which of the countless descriptions of him is the right one. How did you arrive that the Bible was the right one AND why the others aren't?

In my finite mind I cannot honestly say that I know that everything that was written in the Bible was 100% created by God. I do know that I was. This just gets back to where this discussion was a month ago and faith cannot be explained.

Canon FD 70-210mm f/4.0 MF

01/03/2008 12:25:49 AM · #911

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by Melethia:
A question - why does Man 1 care what Man 2 thinks or what his fate is? If Man 1 is happy with his faith and his fate, and Man 2 is equally happy with his non-belief, why does Man 1 care? I understand that one tenet of most religions is to share and all, but really, why would Man 1 care?

Love.

My question to you after reading through this thread would be why does man2 care so much that man1 believes.

Not to answer for Deb, but for me it's because Man 1 likes to try and get Man 2 to conform to his beliefs by trying to get laws passed.

Message edited by author 2008-01-03 00:26:35.

shutterpuppy

Sony Alpha a7

01/03/2008 12:28:03 AM · #912

Originally posted by Phil:

. . . faith cannot be explained.

Pretty much the whole issue in a nutshell

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:29:18 AM · #913

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by Melethia:
A question - why does Man 1 care what Man 2 thinks or what his fate is? If Man 1 is happy with his faith and his fate, and Man 2 is equally happy with his non-belief, why does Man 1 care? I understand that one tenet of most religions is to share and all, but really, why would Man 1 care?

Love.

My question to you after reading through this thread would be why does man2 care so much that man1 believes.

Not to answer for Deb, but for me it's because Man 1 likes to try and get Man 2 to conform to his beliefs by trying to get laws passed.

Not this man1.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:29:45 AM · #914

Originally posted by shutterpuppy:

Originally posted by Phil:

. . . faith cannot be explained.

Pretty much the whole issue in a nutshell

Yep, and pretty much what I tried to say a page ago.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

01/03/2008 12:30:41 AM · #915

Originally posted by Phil:

I think for myself. Not once in here have I said, "I condemn you to hell". I just happen to believe in the one who can do it.

The doctor says, "I will give you medicine and your sickness will end in 4 days.". Since you believe him and go home and tell your neighbor what he said you now must be a doctor? No? So how does believing in the one who can judge you make me a judge?

That's pretty spurious. If you mean to make a comparison between my trust in the ability of a human being who has been educated to give an informed scientific opinion on my health, and your faith in an unseen, unprovable, supernatural being that you believe in by an accident of tradition, I think you'll find yourself coming up a little short.

01/03/2008 12:31:20 AM · #916

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Phil:
I can only tell you what God says.

Is that what God is telling you directly or are you referring to the Bible? This is where my issue is with religion. How do you know the Bible and not the Qur'an or some other book written by people so long ago is the right book that describes God? I can understand how someone can arrive at believing in a god. What I don't get is how you can then take the next step and determine which of the countless descriptions of him is the right one. How did you arrive that the Bible was the right one AND why the others aren't?

In my finite mind I cannot honestly say that I know that everything that was written in the Bible was 100% created by God. I do know that I was. This just gets back to where this discussion was a month ago and faith cannot be explained.

That doesn't answer my question though. Why did you choose the Bible over other books that describe a super being?

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:33:09 AM · #917

Originally posted by Louis:

.... I think you'll find yourself coming up a little short.

Bet I don't.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:33:40 AM · #918

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Phil:
I can only tell you what God says.

Is that what God is telling you directly or are you referring to the Bible? This is where my issue is with religion. How do you know the Bible and not the Qur'an or some other book written by people so long ago is the right book that describes God? I can understand how someone can arrive at believing in a god. What I don't get is how you can then take the next step and determine which of the countless descriptions of him is the right one. How did you arrive that the Bible was the right one AND why the others aren't?

In my finite mind I cannot honestly say that I know that everything that was written in the Bible was 100% created by God. I do know that I was. This just gets back to where this discussion was a month ago and faith cannot be explained.

That doesn't answer my question though. Why did you choose the Bible over other books that describe a super being?

I didn't choose it.

Melethia

Canon EOS-80D

01/03/2008 12:34:14 AM · #919

Originally posted by yanko:

I'm not a man so I can't say for sure. :-) Yanko hits one point - I don't have any problem at all with any of the religions and their followers (up until you get to that point where the "religion" is some horribly twisted justification for killing whole bunches of people - then I object) - but I don't want it codified and required of the general population. I don't have a problem with prayer in schools - even public schools - if it's done outside of classroom time and by those who wish to participate. If you can have a Chess club after school, you can have a Bible study group, and a Qu'ran (sp?) study group for that matter. All good - as long as participation isn't mandated.

Which raises another interesting conundrum - let's say prayer in schools is legislated - it's now perfectly OK to have prayer in the classroom. You, as a Christian, suddenly find yourself in a predominantly Muslim community, and now prayer, legislated, is to a Muslim deity. Now what?

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:35:39 AM · #920

Originally posted by Melethia:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by Melethia:
A question - why does Man 1 care what Man 2 thinks or what his fate is? If Man 1 is happy with his faith and his fate, and Man 2 is equally happy with his non-belief, why does Man 1 care? I understand that one tenet of most religions is to share and all, but really, why would Man 1 care?

Love.

My question to you after reading through this thread would be why does man2 care so much that man1 believes.

Not to answer for Deb, but for me it's because Man 1 likes to try and get Man 2 to conform to his beliefs by trying to get laws passed.

I'm not a man so I can't say for sure. :-) Yanko hits one point - I don't have any problem at all with any of the religions and their followers (up until you get to that point where the "religion" is some horribly twisted justification for killing whole bunches of people - then I object) - but I don't want it codified and required of the general population. I don't have a problem with prayer in schools - even public schools - if it's done outside of classroom time and by those who wish to participate. If you can have a Chess club after school, you can have a Bible study group, and a Qu'ran (sp?) study group for that matter. All good - as long as participation isn't mandated.

Which raises another interesting conundrum - let's say prayer in schools is legislated - it's now perfectly OK to have prayer in the classroom. You, as a Christian, suddenly find yourself in a predominantly Muslim community, and now prayer, legislated, is to a Muslim deity. Now what?

I pray to God.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

01/03/2008 12:40:15 AM · #921

Originally posted by Phil:

The doctor says, "I will give you medicine and your sickness will end in 4 days.". Since you believe him and go home and tell your neighbor what he said you now must be a doctor? No? So how does believing in the one who can judge you make me a judge?

The difference is that you actually spoke to the doctor, and there is some verifiable history that the medicine is helpful. Now if you said that a few people thousands of years ago wrote that they heard of someone who knew someone who claimed that an invisible, supernatural doctor told them that they must take a specific brand of medicine or they'd suffer unbearable headaches forever after they're dead, THEN you'd have a fair comparison... and condemning everyone who doesn't take that brand of medicine to an eternity of migraines would still be just your personal belief, and your personal condemnation, not a statement of fact.

01/03/2008 12:40:56 AM · #922

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by Phil:
I can only tell you what God says.

Is that what God is telling you directly or are you referring to the Bible? This is where my issue is with religion. How do you know the Bible and not the Qur'an or some other book written by people so long ago is the right book that describes God? I can understand how someone can arrive at believing in a god. What I don't get is how you can then take the next step and determine which of the countless descriptions of him is the right one. How did you arrive that the Bible was the right one AND why the others aren't?

In my finite mind I cannot honestly say that I know that everything that was written in the Bible was 100% created by God. I do know that I was. This just gets back to where this discussion was a month ago and faith cannot be explained.

That doesn't answer my question though. Why did you choose the Bible over other books that describe a super being?

I didn't choose it.

Ok... so if you didn't choose to read the Bible which book did you choose?

Message edited by author 2008-01-03 00:42:25.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/03/2008 12:42:25 AM · #923

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by Phil:
The doctor says, "I will give you medicine and your sickness will end in 4 days.". Since you believe him and go home and tell your neighbor what he said you now must be a doctor? No? So how does believing in the one who can judge you make me a judge?

The difference is that you actually spoke to the doctor, and there is some verifiable history that the medicine is helpful. Now if you said that a few people thousands of years ago wrote that they heard of someone who knew someone who claimed that an invisible, supernatural doctor told them that they must take a specific brand of medicine or they'd suffer unbearable headaches forever after they're dead, THEN you'd have a fair comparison... and condemning everyone who doesn't take that brand of medicine to an eternity of migraines would still be just your personal belief, and your personal condemnation, not a statement of fact.

If you don't understand then you don't understand. As I said, it really gets nowhere.

Enjoy.

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III