Atheism in Christian societies - DPChallenge Forums

01/02/2008 04:58:49 PM · #876

Originally posted by David Ey:

My comment was in response to "Exhibit A. :-/

"Exhibit A" was a perfect example of Ray's point: that each religion dismisses all the others as wrong... not only disbelief in a Supreme Being, but failure to believe in the "correct" one. Stan immediately posted that there's only one savior and dismissed all competing religions. The only judgement anyone rendered was this one: "there is only One Name under Heaven whereby men, women, and children may be saved." He's stating point-blank that everyone else's beliefs are wrong and they'll go to Hell for it... exactly what Ray suggested. There's your judgement: a Christian sentencing everyone else to damnation. You won't find a similar judgement from me as I don't even acknowledge the courtroom exists. ;-)

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/02/2008 05:01:28 PM · #877

Uhhh, but isn't that the entire point of being a Christian? If you believed there was another way to heaven that didn't involve Christ you wouldn't be a Christian would you?

01/02/2008 05:14:57 PM · #878

Originally posted by Phil:

Uhhh, but isn't that the entire point of being a Christian? If you believed there was another way to heaven that didn't involve Christ you wouldn't be a Christian would you?

Sure, it's the point of ANY religion. The difference is that disbelievers don't condemn everyone else to some terrible fate for failing to see things their way. There is no judgement rendered- you simply don't agree.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/02/2008 06:26:32 PM · #879

So what is there to argue about?

Bear_Music

Samsung Galaxy S24 Ultra

Sony 24-70mm F4 Vario-Tessar T* FE OSS

01/02/2008 07:49:09 PM · #880

Originally posted by Phil:

So what is there to argue about?

Exactly. It's not like this is *personal*; his belief system says you're going to burn in hell if you don't accept Christ as your Savior. But HE's not the one condemning folks to an afterlife of torment...

R.

777STAN

Pentax K10D

Pentax DA 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 AF

01/02/2008 09:40:24 PM · #881

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by David Ey:
My comment was in response to "Exhibit A. :-/

"Exhibit A" was a perfect example of Ray's point: that each religion dismisses all the others as wrong... not only disbelief in a Supreme Being, but failure to believe in the "correct" one. Stan immediately posted that there's only one savior and dismissed all competing religions. The only judgement anyone rendered was this one: "there is only One Name under Heaven whereby men, women, and children may be saved." He's stating point-blank that everyone else's beliefs are wrong and they'll go to Hell for it... exactly what Ray suggested. There's your judgement: a Christian sentencing everyone else to damnation. You won't find a similar judgement from me as I don't even acknowledge the courtroom exists. ;-)

Thanks to Bear Music for getting it right! People hate me because I insist that Jesus is right and only Jesus is right! However, I am NOTHING! I am just the messenger! I don't make the rules! I just tell you about them! What you do with the rules is your business, and I assert once again YOU WILL ANSWER TO THE RULE MAKER, not me!

As humans we are ALL pompous and egotistical! I'm just honest...because I admit it!

Yet WHEN you finally admit it, you will have to confess that you are just as narrow-minded as I am. I can prove that to you right now!

In the universe of Digital Photography Challenge, admittance to the Heavenly Front Page of Ribbons is determined by obeisance to both a set of qualifying rules and competent skills level. Those of us who consistently grovel in the basement Hell of mediocrity, and DNMC are not admitted to the "Heaven" of the exclusivist religion, known as Professional/Superior Photography.

You regularly castigate me for "holding the line" on that which I know by faith to be true in my heart-felt beliefs. I don't force my beliefs on anyone. (You don't have to read what I write!) However, I WILL NOT allow anyone to force their beliefs on me either (i.e. "Shut up, Stan! We don't want to hear you!")

However, the membership of DPC regularly tell me by their votes what I can do with my artistic-style of photography because it doesn't meet their exacting standards of photographic excellence, and quite often I don't "get it!" when it comes to what is being requested by the various Challenge titles and descriptions.

So far as I'm concerned, I'm okay with your being exclusivist about photography because I believe in Absolute Standards. You challenge me and I am slowly, but surely becoming a better photographer for it. Now take my lead and challenge yourselves in faith. You don't have to be spiritually flabby! Stretch out for Ultimate Truth the way I am stretching out towards Ultimate Photography!

Besides, there are only three options in believing about Jesus. 1. He was/is Messiah, like He says He is! (My Position!) 2. He was a liar and is dead. (This option precludes Him being a good, moral teacher. Nobody wants a teacher who intentionally lies.) 3. He was a lunatic worthy of an insane asylum, and is therefore dead now. (This option, also, precludes Jesus being a good,moral teacher. Nobody wants to be taught by a crazy man.)

Finally, Many will not believe this statement, but it is true none-the-less. I do NOT write any of these things out of hatred for anyone. I write these things out of deepest compassion, respect, and Yes even love for every person here who hates me because I am totally convinced of their veracity, and the tremendous loss that WILL be evident in the next life to those who do not believe me.

These things are not true because I believe them! These things are not true because I write them! THESE THINGS ARE TRUE!!!!!!!

Message edited by author 2008-01-02 21:43:52.

Louis

Nikon D800

Nikon AF Nikkor 85mm f/1.8D

01/02/2008 09:53:25 PM · #882

Originally posted by Bear_Music:

Originally posted by Phil:
So what is there to argue about?

Exactly. It's not like this is *personal*; his belief system says you're going to burn in hell if you don't accept Christ as your Savior. But HE's not the one condemning folks to an afterlife of torment...

Sure he is. Many have not, but if he has in any way attempted to rationalize his position, if he has arrived at his religious conviction after understanding the alternative to belief in god, he has accepted the dogma of his belief in the face of other, perhaps opposing values. If the dogma posits that unbelievers are doomed to eternal pain and suffering, he is responsible for believing that. The belief doesn't exist in a vacuum; it needs believers to exercise the dogma, to believe that the cracker turns into the body of Jesus, to embrace the literature, to mouth the words, "You will be condemned to hell." He surely is responsible. And to think that it isn't personal for such believers is quite missing the point, in my opinion. I believe it's deeply personal for such people. You just need to look at the preceding post's shrillness for evidence.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/02/2008 10:10:59 PM · #883

It's really simple and there need not be all this discussion and debate.

Man1 believes in Bible, Christ and God. Bible, Christ and God say that the only way to heaven is through Christ. Man2 says Christ and God do not exist. According to Man1's beliefs, Man2 is going to hell. Man1 isn't condemning anyone, Man1's God did. If Man1 doesn't believe that Man2 is condemned by God then Man1 is no more a believer than Man2. Them's the ropes. Sorry. Man2, if you're right then we will share the dirt forever. If you're wrong we won't.

I think some might be associating condemnation with intolerance. I am tolerant of others and their beliefs but that doesn't mean that I think their souls are going to be okay when they take their last breath.

milo655321

Nikon D70

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

01/02/2008 10:38:02 PM · #884

Originally posted by 777STAN:

Thanks to Bear Music for getting it right! People hate me because I insist that Jesus is right and only Jesus is right!

Umm ... I don't hate you. I just ... you know ... think you happen to be wrong. But I don't hate you. I don't even know you enough to dislike you. Maybe if I got to know you better, I might find you a bit annoying, but that's hard to say. I doubt I'd actuatlly hate you, however. Maybe if you kicked my girlfriend's dog or stole my wallet and maxed out my credit cards I'd hate you.

Do you like dogs?

...

Having thought about it for a moment, I find I'm somewhat distantly ambivalent about you. I mean, if you were being washed by me in a flood or something, I'd try to throw you a life preserver and all, because, you know, I try, generally, to be what I consider to be a decent person and whatnot.

And yet ... I don't hate you.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

01/02/2008 10:44:42 PM · #885

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by 777STAN:
Thanks to Bear Music for getting it right! People hate me because I insist that Jesus is right and only Jesus is right!

Umm ... I don't hate you. I just ... you know ... think you happen to be wrong. But I don't hate you. I don't even know you enough to dislike you. Maybe if I got to know you better, I might find you a bit annoying, but that's hard to say. I doubt I'd actuatlly hate you, however. Maybe if you kicked my girlfriend's dog or stole my wallet and maxed out my credit cards I'd hate you.

Do you like dogs?

...

Having thought about it for a moment, I find I'm somewhat distantly ambivalent about you. I mean, if you were being washed by me in a flood or something, I'd try to throw you a life preserver and all, because, you know, I try, generally, to be what I consider to be a decent person and whatnot.

And yet ... I don't hate you.

All this ~~love~~ umm ambivalence... and he might not even be a believer. :O)

Ray

01/02/2008 10:58:30 PM · #886

Originally posted by 777STAN:

These things are not true because I believe them! These things are not true because I write them! THESE THINGS ARE TRUE!!!!!!!

The first two parts are correct. The third you only believe to be correct, for there isn't one shred of actual evidence that it's true. No matter how firmly you believe it to be true, belief is all you have. You are only a messenger of beliefs... personal opinions that you are ultimately responsible for in your condemnation of others.

Originally posted by Phil:

Man1 believes in Bible, Christ and God. Bible, Christ and God say that the only way to heaven is through Christ. Man2 says Christ and God do not exist. According to Man1's beliefs, Man2 is going to hell. Man1 isn't condemning anyone, Man1's God did. If Man1 doesn't believe that Man2 is condemned by God then Man1 is no more a believer than Man2.

If Man1 does the talking, then it's Man1 doing the condemning, even if he believes there is some justification for doing so. He is no more relaying a truth than his predecessor was for stating matter-of-factly that people who disrespect Zeus risk a lightning bolt up the wazoo, and the only message delivered is one of contempt for those who disagree. Man2 is not condemning anyone for failing to disbelieve, he just doesn't accept Man1's story as fact.

Originally posted by 777STAN:

I think some might be associating condemnation with intolerance.

Condemnation for not accepting someone else's unsupported opinion as absolute fact is a stark display of intolerance.

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01/02/2008 11:08:41 PM · #887

As I said, it's really simple and there need not be all this discussion and debate. I don't believe what you do and you don't believe what I do. If I'm wrong we share dirt. If not, well.

01/02/2008 11:21:33 PM · #888

Originally posted by Phil:

As I said, it's really simple and there need not be all this discussion and debate. I don't believe what you do and you don't believe what I do. If I'm wrong we share dirt. If not, well.

I don't share your beliefs, but I also don't feel compelled to shun you or publicly condemn you to eternal damnation for having them (the topic of this thread). If you truly believed there was no reason for argument, you never would have posted.

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/02/2008 11:30:51 PM · #889

But you have felt compelled to compare Christianity to that of believing in Santa Claus, deliberately insulting the intelligence of those who have faith.

The ol' "It's wrong to believe that I'm condemned for not believing in Christ but stand here for a minute while I tell you how stupid you are" move.

01/02/2008 11:43:05 PM · #890

Originally posted by Phil:

But you have felt compelled to compare Christianity to that of believing in Santa Claus, deliberately insulting the intelligence of those who have faith.

That they are comparable is not my fault. Both feature stories of supernatural beings without any actual evidence of veracity, and claim millions of people who believe the tales are absolute fact. The same was once true of Greek gods and fire breathing dragons. I'm only pointing out the parallels, which is neither condemnation nor a statement of intelligence. I've already pointed out that there were many brilliant people who shared those early beliefs. If you think such parallels make your personal beliefs sound silly, then that is also your personal opinion, and you'll have to reconcile that with yourself.

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

01/02/2008 11:45:04 PM · #891

Originally posted by Phil:

So knowing that your God thinks so little of these people and plans to send them to hell why do you feel the need to tolerate let alone respect them and treat them as equals (assuming you do all of that)? Clearly these people aren't equal in the eyes of your God so where does this obligation come from? Just curious since earlier DrAchoo questioned where an atheist gets his morality from if they don't believe in a super being so I wonder where this need of tolerance comes from since your God doesn't have it.

Edited for clarity.

Message edited by author 2008-01-02 23:49:29.

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01/02/2008 11:48:33 PM · #892

Originally posted by scalvert:

That they are comparable is not my fault.

That nonbelievers are condemned is not my fault.

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01/02/2008 11:50:20 PM · #893

Originally posted by yanko:

The same reason I tolerate my son pulling my nose hairs out - Love.

01/02/2008 11:52:26 PM · #894

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by scalvert:
That they are comparable is not my fault.

That nonbelievers are condemned is not my fault.

That you're doing the condemning certainly is.

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

01/02/2008 11:53:50 PM · #895

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by yanko:

So knowing that your God thinks so little of these people and plans to send them to hell why do you feel the need to tolerate let alone respect them and treat them as equals (assuming you do all of that)? Clearly these people aren't equal in the eyes of your God so where does this obligation come from? Just curious since earlier DrAchoo questioned where an atheist gets his morality from if they don't believe in a super being so I wonder where this need of tolerance comes from.

The same reason I tolerate my son pulling my nose hairs out - Love.

Ok but your God doesn't have that love for non-believers yet you still love him anyway. So how can you say you have love for non-believers? If I said I loved Hitler but I also loved the Jews would you not see a problem with that?

ETA: Not that I'm comparing your God to Hitler. Just trying to point out the inconsistency.

Message edited by author 2008-01-02 23:54:47.

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01/02/2008 11:54:21 PM · #896

I'm not doing the condemning. Just believing in the one who does.

RayEthier

Canon EF-S 18-55mm f/3.5-5.6 USM

01/02/2008 11:54:25 PM · #897

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by scalvert:

That they are comparable is not my fault.

That nonbelievers are condemned is not my fault.

What with all these exclusionary supreme beings, I fear that Hell will be rather packed.

It is rather sad to note that according to some, even the Catholics would not be granted access.

Ray

Tamron SP AF 17-50mm f/2.8 Di II LD Aspherical (IF) for Canon

01/02/2008 11:57:41 PM · #898

Originally posted by yanko:

God does have love for non believers. He has one simple rule and if you don't follow it then you're on your own. Not my doing.

I see no problem in loving Hitler and the Jews. I pray for my enemies everyday.

yanko

Carl Zeiss 50mm ZE f/1.4 Planar T for Canon

01/02/2008 11:58:56 PM · #899

Originally posted by Phil:

Originally posted by yanko:

Ok but your God doesn't have that love for non-believers yet you still love him anyway. So how can you say you have love for non-believers? If I said I loved Hitler but I also loved the Jews would you not see a problem with that?

God does have love for non believers. He has one simple rule and if you don't follow it then you're on your own. Not my doing.

I see no problem in loving Hitler and the Jews. I pray for my enemies everyday.

Love isn't praying that they'll change. Love is accepting who they are.

Message edited by author 2008-01-02 23:59:33.