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 02/12/2004 05:48:43 PM · #26
Originally posted by bamaster:
Her survival is shown as a result of someone else's avoidable actions. If you are saying thay her life has the same value as it did before, then I think you are unqualified to say that unless it happened to you.


I never said (nor for an instant tought) that her life has the same value as it did before. But in these cases there is no before.
There is just now and after (and that's part of the human condition).

She may decide to kill herself or she may find new motivations toward life (very difficult an painful, but not impossible).

If she truly felt those motivations in helping other, than she evidently is an angel and as such should be represented.

But this is not the message which comes out from this campaign.
That photos tell us nothing of her inner richness.
They show us only the exterior horrible mess.

Again, with the excuse to scare those who do not know.

I find that a poor excuse and the campaign remarkably evil.
 02/12/2004 05:49:45 PM · #27
When I read the other thread I didn't see A beautiful girl or an ugly girl but a person whose life was altered by an irresponsible person. How can it help to show this ???? Maybe someone who had gotten behind the wheel when they shouldn't have will notice thats the actions have consequences beyond themselves.

02/12/2004 05:57:31 PM · #28
Originally posted by glimpses:
I never said (nor for an instant tought) that her life has the same value as it did before. But in these cases there is no before. There is just now and after (and that's part of the human condition).


Suddenly I feel real dumb, because I am utterly lost here.

Why does the past not matter? I have a really hard time believing you read the Snopes site or her site at all. And this isn't a campaign. It is something I got in the mail and I thought it worth passing on. You see marketing evil, I see a message.
02/12/2004 05:58:24 PM · #29
Glimpses,

I give up! Your last post was inconceivable & suggests things that you are assuming & frankly have no right to assume.

I am more disturbed by this thread you have started & the numerous posts you have made MUCH MORE than the original thread.

I don't want to get personal or hurt your feelings but what is wrong with you? You don't think Jacqui's inner strength can be seen from those pictures? Most people don;t want to be fotographed bc they don;t have make up on or their hair isn't just right. Just bc you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there.

Message edited by author 2004-02-12 18:00:01.
 02/12/2004 06:00:09 PM · #30
I am sorry..

I still feel as I felt about this campaign but I reckon that my feelings may be wrong.

I just desperately tried to move the focus from the scope (avoid these accidents from scaring potential responsibles) to the person who was in the picture represented in a terribly painful way.

I meant.. the message would say that she is "just" one, and I am still not at easy with that nor with the method.

I think it would be much much better to go to the root of the problem than to try to solve it using victims and that's another very negative aspect of the inefficiency of our society which translates in tragedies.
 02/12/2004 06:03:23 PM · #31
I think it would be much much better to go to the root of the problem ...

The root of the problem is drunk people driving bc they don't think what could happen if they get into an accident. The problem is that there is no prethought of the consequences when you do that. The problem is that one persons stupid decision can change other people's world. The problem is that you refuse to get this even after acknowledging that you could be wrong.
 02/12/2004 06:07:55 PM · #32
Originally posted by glimpses:
I think it would be much much better to go to the root of the problem than to try to solve it using victims and that's another very negative aspect of the inefficiency of our society which translates in tragedies.


I'll bite... what is the root of the problem? Is it the availability of alcohol to 18 year olds? Is it the driving while intoxicated? Is it that automobiles catch fire too easily?

If so, what is the non-evil solution?
 02/12/2004 06:13:21 PM · #33
They say a picture speaks a thousand words. The horror at her outer appearance would have much more of an impact to the casual observer. Yes, it is a ploy used to get you to read the article, but if you dont read the article then the image is still there and if it has made one person think or one person look back and decide to not drink and drive then it has served its purpose.

It does not take much to assume what her life must be like and what she must have to go through each day, although that is not to say we could ever truly understand what it must be like unless it had happened to us. I'm sure they could have written up her routine with the medication she takes, the surgeries she goes through, doctor visits, impaired vision, and a lot of other life-altering handicaps. Let alone the things her family must be going through also.

People have tried the soft approach towards advertising against smoking, drugs, and drinking and driving, and for the most part it has been deemed ineffective. When you see war live on TV and hear about murders daily on the news and you dont even blink an eyelid you realise that a lot of people have become desensitized to a lot of things. If shock value saves lives then I'm all for it.
 02/12/2004 06:30:22 PM · #34
Originally posted by bamaster:
I'll bite... what is the root of the problem? Is it the availability of alcohol to 18 year olds? Is it the driving while intoxicated? Is it that automobiles catch fire too easily?

If so, what is the non-evil solution?


I am sorry you posted this discussed campaign and I bite just because I am in this conversation.

The root of the problem is a society which is unable to communicate the value of life to its members without using its own victims.

I find unacceptable that at political level victims created by society, not individuals, are devilish used to show that the society "is doing something" (something very easy indeed: use the victims - two times victims).

The roots of the problem are the reasons who put an individual in the condition of driving while drunk.

But those are way too expensive to be investigated and removed for a society which bases its "stability" in great part also on alchool.

There is the evil which I perceived.
 02/12/2004 06:45:00 PM · #35
Originally posted by karmat:
What I think glimpses is saying is that we are to be outraged about drunk driving, but more than that, we are to be outraged that we would see the surface appearance of this young lady publicized like that. Would we have reacted the same if it had been a very heavy, ugly girl that that happened to? At least, I think that is what he means.

Having said that, I wish more drunk drivers and potential drunk drivers could see this. I have often said that if a family member of mine is ever killed by a drunk, I want the courts to require him/her to attend the funeral, and sit on the front row.

There are fates worse than death, ya know.

Sorry, glimpses, you posted while I was composing.

One question -- You say you do not believe the story. Why?


Actually I may be one of the few to get your point, and I think I felt the same way when I saw it. They showed the woman in a beautiful Before shot and even though she survived, it's tragic because she's not beautiful anymore. Obviously the health repercussions were more severe than just not being pretty anymore, but it was an underlying message - and shows the world's tendency to place total emphasis on physical beauty. She's alive! Life will be hard, but she's alive! She can taste, feel, see her family and eventually will have somewhat of a normal life again. WHen you look in the daily paper they always say "it was tragic, Kevin loved life and was a handsome quarterback" like if he was ugly and overweight it wouldn't have been so bad. The difference between Glimpses' perspective and mine are that I do realize most people didn't see what I saw [as just explained] when they looked at those pics. They just saw how hard this young woman's life is going to be and that's A-OKAY with me.

Lori

Message edited by author 2004-02-12 18:47:21.
 02/12/2004 07:03:59 PM · #36
Apart from my instinctive reaction I know, following this conversation, that my strongest feeling was that:
victims should not be used to solve a problem.

I felt she was used because of the way the sequence of shots was taken.. defining a storyboard with the clear intent of shocking the viewer.

I am glad this was moved to the rant.

I will not be able to answer again until tomorrow.
 02/12/2004 07:33:08 PM · #37
Originally posted by glimpses:
Apart from my instinctive reaction I know, following this conversation, that my strongest feeling was that:
victims should not be used to solve a problem.


From what I can tell, this is HER message, not the media's or some MADD agenda. Is it the same evil if she uses herself to solve a problem?

I understand the notion of 'what does being beautiful have to do with it?'.... but I certainly didn't see that in the message. I think she was beautiful on the outside yes, but even an ugly person would rather be ugly than what those post burn photos look like.

I am a self proclaimed eternal optimist. I really do try to see things in the most positive way possible, albeit I can still be a smart a**. I'm sorry you see propoganda. All I can do is challenge you to see things with better eyes.
 02/12/2004 07:41:23 PM · #38
maybe this is more what glimpses is looking for:
possibly that the statistics should show what is needed to know, not the victom.

Originally posted by MadMordegon:
what i find amazing is that drugs like alchohol are legal while other much less harmless drugs are not.

Last year 16,653 Americans were killed in drunk driving crashes. 40% of the 41,821 people killed in all traffic crashes.

not to mention how many kids, wives and others who get abused by drunk people and how many lives are completly ruined by alchohol addiction.
02/12/2004 07:55:48 PM · #39
Originally posted by bamaster:
Originally posted by glimpses:
Apart from my instinctive reaction I know, following this conversation, that my strongest feeling was that:
victims should not be used to solve a problem.


From what I can tell, this is HER message, not the media's or some MADD agenda. Is it the same evil if she uses herself to solve a problem?

I understand the notion of 'what does being beautiful have to do with it?'.... but I certainly didn't see that in the message. I think she was beautiful on the outside yes, but even an ugly person would rather be ugly than what those post burn photos look like.

I am a self proclaimed eternal optimist. I really do try to see things in the most positive way possible, albeit I can still be a smart a**. I'm sorry you see propoganda. All I can do is challenge you to see things with better eyes.

Now, go back and edit those pics,erase please!
 02/13/2004 01:34:59 AM · #40
Solution to stop drunk drivers:
Since every car has a computer, and every driver's license has a magnetic stripe, one must swipe their license before the car will start. There is also a breathalizer machine that some places have foreced repeat offenders to install in their cars.

I think the license swipe bit would take about 15% of the cars off the road instantly. My wife works at a drug and alcohol rehab facility - an overwhelming number of the patients there have no license, and will not for years. but they drive. On the news tonite was a guy driving on a suspended license - and he got 2 DUIs in the SAME DAY last month. (with a suspended license at the time!)

It would also stop car theft.
It would prevent those with cinderella licenses from driving after dark or 11pm or whatever your state decrees as the limit for new drivers.

chris

Message edited by author 2004-02-13 01:35:59.
 02/13/2004 02:53:01 AM · #41
The real evil is drunk drivers and the tremendous toll they take on society, the individual victims, their friends and families. I can't imagine that girl's suffering, nor that of her family, I only have my own. 16 years ago, on Easter weekend, my best friend was killed by a drunk driver, I still miss him and it still hurts.

The fact that this girl has bravely chosen to share her suffering to educate us all is not for anyone to judge.
 02/13/2004 03:05:59 AM · #42
Originally posted by moodville:
Originally posted by glimpses:

That comment shows the point quite clearly.
I hope, for you, that you do not make a choice to do not recognize what I am talking about because you cannot run away from your conscience.
Can you?


The problem here is that we do not have a clue what you are talking about. Explain it in a way we can understand, and sure use 2-4 letter words if it helps, but so far the only thing that has come out of your post is that trying to save lives is evil and ugly girls should burn.

I think I get it! He is saying that drink driving is bad, but we 'good' people, who would never consider doing it, shouldn't have to think about it. Obviously what is needed is a 'smart' campaign targeted solely at drink drivers.
 02/13/2004 03:25:34 AM · #43
i'm sure there have been other cases as horrific as this that don't get as much attention.. yes, this girl got more attention because she was a very pretty girl to begin with.. i can't even begin to imagine why the swimsuit picture was included in the layout of photos.. i completely understand where glimpses is coming from.. i am fed up with insulting subtle propganadistic tricks like this. why is it insulting? because i feel like it is assumed i won't care if i see a case where something so horrible happens to a less 'beautiful' individual.

yes, this is a horrible tragedy to have happened. but why would you need to look harder to find the photos of a less attractive victim? that's what's wrong with this whole thing. i admire glimpses observation.. he's not attacking your sympathy... don't take it the wrong way.
 02/13/2004 03:50:18 AM · #44
OK, correct me if I'm wrong. I certainly haven't been through the whole site, but I don't see anywhere that it makes any referece to her beauty, her looks, or how this in any way makes this any more tragic. This is all very matter of fact. So in raising these issues, whether your intent is good or not, all you're doing is diverting attention from the issue: the consequences of drunk driving. For what purpose?
 02/13/2004 03:55:38 AM · #45
goddamn it, the fact that i wouldn't have seen this otherwise is a testament enough to the sly propaganda going on here.. even if it is for a good cause, this is an insult to my intellect! i do not think anyone is trying to belittle the severity of the accident or ignore the message because of it. it is just INSULTING!

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU HAVE DIFFERENT FINGERS... god, everyone is so thick skulled here.

Message edited by author 2004-02-13 03:55:52.
 02/13/2004 04:10:39 AM · #46
I still don't get what the hell glimpses is talking about. The reason for the before pics? to correlate with the pictures of her relying on someone else to walk, help with her daily routines, being unable to pick up things with one hand, having eyedrops applied, becuause she has no eyelids. One other thing. SOmeone mentioned something about touch and feeling...she has none anymore after burns like that. Taste is more than likely gone and definitely smell, since her nose is burnt off. I imagine her vision has suffered also. The beofre pics show what she was like and the potential at what IS a normal life. She has no normal life in anyway close to you or I. She will have to deal with contractures from the burnt skin that decreases mobility and movability of her extremities. The skin is constantly tightening as it "repairs" itself. Before...normal (doesn't matter if she was attractive or not) and after...disfigured and a very tough life physically. She must be very strong emotionally, because if that were me...I would be dead by my own hand already. Burns are the most painful and tragic things to heal and live with. Look it up.
url=//www.phoenix-society.org/viewguestbook.asp]Look here also[/url]

and Waahhhh! F'in Waaahh! if you have to see it! It is not propaganda. It is a community message. did you not have to listen, or go through these things in drivers ed? I work in an ER, and am exposed to this every day I work. PD brings in drunk drivers. Drunk drivers wreck, and almost never hurt themselves. Other people are almost always the worst off. Would this forum be much different if the drunk driver was the one that got burnt up? Let's ask that. I think him being a spokesman for not driving drunk would be very strong...just as this girls is!

Message edited by author 2004-02-13 04:17:51.
 02/13/2004 04:23:42 AM · #47
If you don't want to see these types of things...get rid of your computer and move into a cave. How would you ever know about anything if you are not exposed to it. If this is not important topic to you, you are an idiot. Why are you an idiot? Because if you think this does not effect, or will not effect you, you are wrong (unless you live in that cave and never come out). being ignorant of these types of things, do not make them go away. Ignorance is not an excuse. I don't want it to happen, but someday this type of thing will effect your life in someway, if it has not already.

Message edited by author 2004-02-13 04:24:59.
 02/13/2004 12:14:19 PM · #48
Unless the title of that original thread has been changed at some point then it certainly gives any reader advance notice that the thread includes disturbing images.

So it's down to any individual's curiousity if they are then disturbed by what they see on opening the thread.

I didn't take the meaning of the series of images to be in anyway related to this idea that it's more tragic for the life of a pretty girl to be devastated in this way than an ordinary or ugly girl.

What I saw was the life of an ordinary woman with everything ahead of her devastated by one thoughtless act by another ordinary man.

And what I took away from it, as do many others, was a renewed reminder about how important it is to consider the consequences of our actions and to ensure that we, nor those we have influence over, drink and drive.

If one person who would otherwise have got behind a wheel whilst intoxicated thinks twice and doesn't do so, then making a few people feel deeply uncomfortable is an acceptable side-effect in my book.

It IS evil that some elements of our society feel drink driving is acceptable and in an ideal world there would some magical solution that would change that this very second. But given that we don't have that kind of power, shock tactics like this one are worth a shot.

That's what I think, anyway.
 02/13/2004 02:49:41 PM · #49
Originally posted by dacrazyrn:
If you don't want to see these types of things...get rid of your computer and move into a cave. How would you ever know about anything if you are not exposed to it. If this is not important topic to you, you are an idiot. Why are you an idiot? Because if you think this does not effect, or will not effect you, you are wrong (unless you live in that cave and never come out). being ignorant of these types of things, do not make them go away. Ignorance is not an excuse. I don't want it to happen, but someday this type of thing will effect your life in someway, if it has not already.


Dacrazyrn, I may well be an idiot but what should be said of who assumes to acquire real knowledge from campaigns based on pictures?

Oh, sorry, I forgot that you just sent a camera on Mars and got a wonderful picture of a bunch of rocks which would have ended up last in any challenge not only on DPC but also on "Photo-Contests for Kids".

And to take that photo you spent quite a serious number of dollars (no doubt that a good part of them went in the certainly more more precious rocks of some NASA manager's villa in Tuscany) which could have saved a very big number of lifes if we have to believe to the numbers provided to us on a daily basis from the Charities.

The true evil is politics who wants people to be a bunch of idiots so they can use them for whatever purpose (which is exactly what is happening on a worldwide scale).

A pity that they didn't have to make a great effort to achieve their goal because it looks like if we already are a bunch of idiots.
 02/13/2004 03:16:29 PM · #50
Those are the charities and action groups you are condeming in your original thread ?

It would be great if you could try to have some consistency at least...
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