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11/18/2007 02:07:22 PM · #51 |
Man, this has gone way off the rails.
Noone said the employer has to make up for tips in their entirety. The tips are a bonus to the employee from the customer.
The hourly wage is what an employer gives you for doing your job.
Two totally separate things.
ETA: An employer has no control over how much his/her employees get paid in tips therefore should get no credit on wages paid to the employees. If the employee gets no tips, the employer still gets the credit. Funny setup if you ask me.
Looks like norm across the US though.
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 14:10:19. |
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11/18/2007 02:09:00 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by MattO:
Do any of you think its funny that we are expected to make up what the employer isnt willing to pay in the first place? I mean really if the employee was paid a fair wage then we wouldnt be expected to pay them extra, simply for doing their job. Now dont get me wrong I do tip for good service, but it always burns me that restraunts and other places are allowed to pay such terrible wages.
MattO |
No, I don't think it's funny at all. NJ has one of the highest minimum wages in the US at $7.15/hr. Studies were done that proved that fast food restaurants actually increased employment, not decreased. So I don't understand either why tipped workers do not deserve the same treatment. The tips should be a bonus for a job well done by those who care to do it, not a requirement to make a living. |
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11/18/2007 02:15:08 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I'm also not sure I could feel sorry for someone earning 25.00/hour. Couldn't my tip money be spread much more effectively if I just donated it to those in actual poverty?
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Many massage therapists work exactly like hairdressers, they rent space and provide a service. Out of that $65 per massage, they have to cover all of their overhead expenses (rent, equipment, supplies, training, licenses, insurance, etc) Not to mention the work is also physically taxing, so they really can't take doing 8 massages/day 5 days/week. That's a recipe for injury. An injury that means they likely will be unable to work and thus, a loss of income. |
I understand that. But if someone isn't working full time, how much do they deserve to earn a year? (that's an honest question.) I'm sure we'd all like to make tons of money, but the truth is some jobs earn less than others for various reasons. Some need little training, some only offer part time hours, some are jobs where lots of people want to do it. That's the product of capitalism (for good or bad).
Here's a pithy quote from CS Lewis for discussion:
"Sometimes our pride also hinders our charity; we are tempted to spend more than we ought on the showy forms of generosity (tipping, hospitality) and less than we ought on those who really need our help." |
Just like any other working professional, they deserve as much as the market will bear. I know massage therapists who charge $65/hr and are turning new clients away because they are booked solid for 2-3 months in advance.
YOU may hold the opinion that $65/hour for a massage is excessive, but I'd be willing to bet that a good share your patients think what you charge as a doctor is excessive too.
Tipping is not charity. It's about gratitude for service, not pity.
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11/18/2007 02:21:46 PM · #54 |
I didn't read the whole thread, but here's my take on the OP's question:
I used to go to Starbucks most mornings in the week. About once a month I would leave them a good tip. I agree with  DrAchoo that they are only serving you for mere minutes. However, if you go to the same place every morning, they know you, they smile at you, they know what you want, they give you extras, then I feel they deserve a tip once in a while. |
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11/18/2007 02:23:34 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by cassilda_terry:
okay....so this is kind of random but I need your opinions PLEASE!
So i go to get a hot chocolate almost every morning and I pay with my card. On the reciept it has a space to tip and the amount you want to tip.
Question: Is it proper to tip when you are buying a hot chocolate or other hot beverage? I never tip for little things like that. Am I not being polite? Is it like eating out at say olive Garden. Yeah, you are going to tip, but if you don't then people think you are rude...
So, am I rude for not tipping?
Also, what about when I get a hair cut? Do I need to tip them just for cutting off 2 inches of my hair?
So...that was really random guys. |
If the hot chocolate is someone at a drive thru window just hitting a button on the hot chocolate machine...no, I wouldn't tip. If it's someone at a counter putting together something special for you (much like a bartender), then I would add a minimal tip if they do a great job with good attitude.
For a hair cut, I always tip if I like the service. I've used the same lady for awhile, so that's a pretty easy one for me. On the other hand, I took my youngest in for a cut and made only one request - that it remain long enough for putting back in a pony tail (she plays volleyball.) The stylist did not do that, and of course that's something that can't be redone. I ended up not paying for that hair cut at all. We're talking simple, one length hair. It should not have been a problem.
Also, I will definitely tip a cook when my food is good! And more than a tip, I've been known to write a nice comment, taking note of the employee's name, and send to store managers for any outstanding service - food related or even retail.
And this may be silly, but I purchase McDonalds gift cards - just the cheapies - and usually have a couple in my purse. I hand them out to grocery checkers who have excellent attitudes. I don't know what it is about grocery folks (and other check out lines...like WalMarts)...but checkers can have the most sour attitudes ever! I will ALWAYS thank someone who serves me in whatever capacity with a pleasant and efficient attitude. I don't just say thank-you...I will specifically say "Thank you for making my day by being so nice!" or some such thing. |
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11/18/2007 02:40:08 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
If the employee gets no tips, the employer still gets the credit. Funny setup if you ask me. |
That is not correct. Under Federal regulations, if a tipped employee does not earn enough in tips to make up for the tip credit, the employer is legally obligated to make up the difference. Pennsylvania has the same standards. I don't know for sure about other states but I doubt any others deviate from that.
~Terry
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 14:43:58.
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11/18/2007 02:45:50 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
If the employee gets no tips, the employer still gets the credit. Funny setup if you ask me. |
That is not correct. Under Federal regulations, if a tipped employee does not earn enough in tips to make up for the tip credit, the employer is legally obligated to make up the difference. Pennsylvania has the same standards. I don't know for sure about other states but I doubt any others deviate from that.
~Terry |
Still funny that the employer gets credit for something that's discretionary from the customer and that the employer has no control over.
Plus, if the employee gets their tips in cash how does the employer know whether they've been under tipped or not? |
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11/18/2007 02:47:30 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Just like any other working professional, they deserve as much as the market will bear. I know massage therapists who charge $65/hr and are turning new clients away because they are booked solid for 2-3 months in advance.
YOU may hold the opinion that $65/hour for a massage is excessive, but I'd be willing to bet that a good share your patients think what you charge as a doctor is excessive too.
Tipping is not charity. It's about gratitude for service, not pity. |
I didn't hold that $65/hr was excessive. I just asked how much a massage therapist who does not work full time should expect to make? $25/hr profit at full time is about $50,000 a year gross. I don't think that's too shabby. It's above the median income anyway. If they can't work full time, then they earn less. I'm fine with that.
My point is personally I would feel that my extra $5-10 tip would be better spent if it were given to someone who earned less. Part of my tipping IS charity. I tip chambermaids, for example, because I know they don't make enough and they work hard. I don't even usually see the chambermaid and I'm not "grateful" for their service any more than their service is expected to be proper and professional (which it almost always is). |
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11/18/2007 03:52:34 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by joynim:
LOl glad in NZ we dont have those dilemas! |
I would have to agree. Here in Australia tipping is not commonplace. The price stated is the price expected. I own a retail business and never get a tip and feel uncomfortable if someone says to me to keep the change. Normally I put it into the collection container for the guide dogs association. The fastfood cafe accross from me have a tipping bucket (with lid) and tips are accepted but not necessarily expected. I never tip anyone. |
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11/18/2007 03:58:18 PM · #60 |
| In the UK it is normal to tip hairdressers (unless they own the salon), taxi drivers (God knows why) and waiters/resses (although often the tips are then shared equally amongst all staff)and the amount tends to be pretty standard 10%. |
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11/18/2007 07:30:48 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by rox_rox:
And...servers are required to pay taxes on a percentage of their sales. When I worked in the business it was 11%. |
Yeah, but that's INCOME tax, which the employer is not required to pay. All who earn in come have to pay tax on it directly to the government. |
No, employers are not required to pay income tax on a server's tips, but the server is required to pay the tax, whether they actually received the tips or not. IOW, the IRS is taxing these people on money that they may have earned, not on what they actually earned. How well do you think that would fly with other professions? Especially in jobs that receive high pay. What if you're one of these highly paid people and you make, oh let's say $150K per year, and the IRS says, "Other people in your field are earning $200K per year, so we're going to tax you as if you earned that much." How long do you think that would last?
It's fucking lame and unfair and it should be illegal. But hey, that's America for you. The Gubmint has all the power and it takes whatever it wants. If you don't cooperate, then it will destroy you.
Be generous with your tips.
Down with big government!!!
:)
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11/18/2007 07:37:27 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by Mick:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
Originally posted by rox_rox:
And...servers are required to pay taxes on a percentage of their sales. When I worked in the business it was 11%. |
Yeah, but that's INCOME tax, which the employer is not required to pay. All who earn in come have to pay tax on it directly to the government. |
No, employers are not required to pay income tax on a server's tips, but the server is required to pay the tax, whether they actually received the tips or not. IOW, the IRS is taxing these people on money that they may have earned, not on what they actually earned. How well do you think that would fly with other professions? Especially in jobs that receive high pay. What if you're one of these highly paid people and you make, oh let's say $150K per year, and the IRS says, "Other people in your field are earning $200K per year, so we're going to tax you as if you earned that much." How long do you think that would last?
It's fucking lame and unfair and it should be illegal. But hey, that's America for you. The Gubmint has all the power and it takes whatever it wants. If you don't cooperate, then it will destroy you.
Be generous with your tips.
Down with big government!!!
:) |
Can I get an AMEN?!!!
:-) |
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11/18/2007 08:17:22 PM · #63 |
This is one of the great things about Japan.
Just try tipping here, the waiter will run out of the store to give you your money back.
I only saw one place where they allowed tipping, it was an Irish bar, and every 30 mins the dj would announce they they accept tips.
Needless to say they got none from me |
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11/18/2007 09:03:44 PM · #64 |
Here it is from the restauranteurs' POV. This is what I was getting at when talking about how they get a tax break on tipped wages. Italics added for emphasis.
"So much for employee issues regarding taxes on tips, how about employers? Let’s start with some bad news. Employers have to pay 6.2% Social Security tax (on tips and wages up to $90,000 annually) and 1.45% Medicare tax (on all tips and wages). This tax is also known as FICA. Here’s some good news. Employers receive a credit for this FICA tax paid on tips above minimum wage. Let me explain. If an employee earns $5.30 per hour in tips and is paid $3.85 per hour in wages then $4.00 per hour is eligible for the FICA Tip Tax Credit. (Federal minimum wage is $5.15; minus $3.85 is $1.30. $5.30 minus $1.30 is $4.00.) The employer will get a credit of $ .31 per hour (7.65% times $4.00). If there are 20 tipped employees all working 40 hours per week the restaurateur will have a credit of almost $13,000 by the end of the year. This is a dollar for dollar credit against federal income taxes. Here is some more bad news. Employers also have to pay unemployment insurance tax, federal and state, on tips. Some good news is that you only pay federal on the first $7,000 per year on combined wages and tips, and state (in New York) on the first $8,500.
No tip discussion would be complete without touching on the issue of service charges. Tips (a.k.a. gratuities) and service charges are very different. Tips must be left at the discretion of the customer and are the sole property of the employee. Service charges, on the other hand, are determined by management and some or all can be passed on to employees and treated as wages. I know there is an ongoing philosophical debate about whether it is better to have a service charge added to the bill and pay your service staff solely a wage or keep the traditional environment of a small wage plus tips. I won’t comment on the philosophical side, but I do want to note some financial differences. First of all, eliminating tipping would also eliminate the benefits of the FICA Tip Tax credit which I discussed earlier. Secondly, tips are not subject to Workers’ Compensation insurance and “converting” tips to wages may have an impact on insurance costs. Finally, overtime costs would be greatly increased in a service charge environment due to the fact that base rates would be much higher."
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 21:04:53. |
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11/18/2007 10:34:48 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Just like any other working professional, they deserve as much as the market will bear. I know massage therapists who charge $65/hr and are turning new clients away because they are booked solid for 2-3 months in advance.
YOU may hold the opinion that $65/hour for a massage is excessive, but I'd be willing to bet that a good share your patients think what you charge as a doctor is excessive too.
Tipping is not charity. It's about gratitude for service, not pity. |
I didn't hold that $65/hr was excessive. I just asked how much a massage therapist who does not work full time should expect to make? $25/hr profit at full time is about $50,000 a year gross. I don't think that's too shabby. It's above the median income anyway. If they can't work full time, then they earn less. I'm fine with that.
My point is personally I would feel that my extra $5-10 tip would be better spent if it were given to someone who earned less. Part of my tipping IS charity. I tip chambermaids, for example, because I know they don't make enough and they work hard. I don't even usually see the chambermaid and I'm not "grateful" for their service any more than their service is expected to be proper and professional (which it almost always is). |
You're assuming that all of those 2000 hours would be paid hours that are spent giving massage; they aren't. There are a myriad of other tasks that need to be done during non-billed hours. Things like managing the books, ordering supplies, training, scheduling appointments, filing insurance paperwork, etc. All of those take time and that time is not being billed. I would estimate that at least 1/3 of the 2000 hours are spent doing such things. Also, people forget appointments or simply don't show up, those hours also go unpaid. It's not hard to see where a more realistic figure for a massage therapist would be in the $30-35K range. Which is not bad around here, but in other areas that's a poverty wage.
Why would you presume that someone who earns less will need your money more? Maybe the chambermaid is single and lives alone while the massage therapist could be a single parent with 3 kids she struggles to feed every week. The chambermaid may be able to eat well without your $5 tip, but that same $5 might mean the massage therapist's kids get to eat something nutritious instead of Mac&Cheese for the 5th time that week.
Message edited by author 2007-11-18 22:40:43.
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11/19/2007 06:29:08 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Why would you presume that someone who earns less will need your money more? Maybe the chambermaid is single and lives alone while the massage therapist could be a single parent with 3 kids she struggles to feed every week. The chambermaid may be able to eat well without your $5 tip, but that same $5 might mean the massage therapist's kids get to eat something nutritious instead of Mac&Cheese for the 5th time that week. |
Who knows, the massage therapist may even have 3 kids with allergies, and no insurance!;) |
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11/19/2007 07:24:18 AM · #67 |
It is not so common to tip in GB. I rarely tip.
Often, the service is nowhere near the standard that I would expect, so why should I tip? Hairdressers would typically charge Ă‚ÂŁ10 for 10 mins work (on my hair anyway!). That equates to Ă‚ÂŁ60 an hour gross - I think that is enough!
In New York however, I was advised that,
"when sitting at the bar, every time the bartender gives you your drinks and change, slap a dollar/couple of coins on the bar. They won't pick it up until you leave, though will make sure they come back to serve you when your glass is empty".
It worked a treat, and I didn't mind a bit as the 'tender was making an effort for me in a busy bar, knowing he was going to get some extra pocket money... |
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11/19/2007 08:41:32 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by cassilda_terry:
okay....so this is kind of random but I need your opinions PLEASE!
So i go to get a hot chocolate almost every morning and I pay with my card. On the reciept it has a space to tip and the amount you want to tip.
Question: Is it proper to tip when you are buying a hot chocolate or other hot beverage? I never tip for little things like that. Am I not being polite? Is it like eating out at say olive Garden. Yeah, you are going to tip, but if you don't then people think you are rude...
So, am I rude for not tipping?
Also, what about when I get a hair cut? Do I need to tip them just for cutting off 2 inches of my hair?
So...that was really random guys. |
Consider the location. Our Blimpie (!!!) has a slot on the receipt for tips, but I think the credit card machine is set to add that by default, because some locations have gotten wise and turned it off.
I wish we'd get away from tipping, since you rarely get exceptional service anyway. If you were having a long dinner with constant attention, then maybe. But to have an expected tip for 2, maybe 3 trips to your table? Come on. Just put the cost into the food and pay the employees a fair wage.
However, having tips does allow me to reduce the tip if I so desire. So maybe that is better.
The other day, service was less than desirable, so boom 10%. For really good service, we'll go as high as 20% (but depending on the restaurant I may cap it at $5 as any more seems excessive for like Applebees or Fred Lobster).
When we go to Melting Pot and sit for 1.5 hours and the waiter is actually doing something, then I do the full 20% (like $10 for us).
But I'm getting old and cranky too.
For haircuts, SuperCuts or GreatClips is like $13 here, so we just make it $15. I hate it because the $13 should be paying for the haircut and a quality job... but there is the whole peer pressure thing.
For me though, my lovely wife cuts my hair. #1 blade guard and shave away!
Message edited by author 2007-11-19 08:43:12.
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11/19/2007 09:10:44 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
Originally posted by Kelli:
A lot depends on the actual situation. My mother, who has been a diner waitress her whole life, makes $1.88/hr. |
Don't you have minimum wage laws over there? |
Pennsylvania has minimum wage laws, 3 levels of them.
Regular work is $7.25 (I think - it went up twice this year, and business under X number of employees have another year at $6.25), waitress or other tipped positions are $2.83 (but if claimed tips are less than $7.25 the restaurant is to pay the difference, based a total week's pay, so a bad night or two may still be $3/hour).
Farm workers have another pay scale, not sure what that is.
When I worked in restaurants a couple of years back it was because it was the highest paying, easiest to get work. I worked in a local chain diner-type restaurant and even on slow midnight shifts made $12/hour. I then moved over to the new buffet restaurant and made more, often $20/night.
The 'real' money is made in chains that sell liquor (applebees, red lobster, TGI Fridays, etc). $200-250 on a friday night is pretty standard, but you work your ass off for that money. My photo ass't is working part time at a local italian restaurant and his tips average $250 for 3 shifts..18-22 hours, plus the $2.83.
And perhaps one in 30 servers claim all their tips, so I'd say half their income is tax free.
Message edited by author 2007-11-19 09:15:25.
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11/19/2007 09:20:20 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Why would you presume that someone who earns less will need your money more? Maybe the chambermaid is single and lives alone while the massage therapist could be a single parent with 3 kids she struggles to feed every week. The chambermaid may be able to eat well without your $5 tip, but that same $5 might mean the massage therapist's kids get to eat something nutritious instead of Mac&Cheese for the 5th time that week. |
Who knows, the massage therapist may even have 3 kids with allergies, and no insurance!;) |
Never assume they are living on their tips (or that they're not).
I know quite a few waitresses that work for "extra money", or cause their husband is out of town a lot or to buy christmas presents, or pay off the vacation in hawaii from last year.
One lady I worked with was the wife of a secret service agent - he was on the presidential detail and would work 2 or 3 weeks strait and be home for 4 days and then back out. Being home alone with 3 kids drove her nuts. He was very well paid, govt benefits, pension in the future and all of it.
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11/19/2007 10:12:09 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
Originally posted by rox_rox:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Why would you presume that someone who earns less will need your money more? Maybe the chambermaid is single and lives alone while the massage therapist could be a single parent with 3 kids she struggles to feed every week. The chambermaid may be able to eat well without your $5 tip, but that same $5 might mean the massage therapist's kids get to eat something nutritious instead of Mac&Cheese for the 5th time that week. |
Who knows, the massage therapist may even have 3 kids with allergies, and no insurance!;) |
Never assume they are living on their tips (or that they're not).
I know quite a few waitresses that work for "extra money", or cause their husband is out of town a lot or to buy christmas presents, or pay off the vacation in hawaii from last year.
One lady I worked with was the wife of a secret service agent - he was on the presidential detail and would work 2 or 3 weeks strait and be home for 4 days and then back out. Being home alone with 3 kids drove her nuts. He was very well paid, govt benefits, pension in the future and all of it. |
Exactly.
The point is that it's a very bourgeois attitude to assume that since someone makes below a certain wage or does menial work for a living that they are in more need of your charity in the form of tips.
If you want to help those in need, donate to a charity, volunteer at a soup kitchen, take food to the poor, etc.
A gratuity (aka "tip") is a payment beyond obligation as appreciation for service. It's not mandatory, but it's also not charity.
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11/19/2007 10:21:08 AM · #72 |
I always tip, 15% of the bill, minimum.
some waitrons here do not get a basic salary.
my hairdresser gets a yearly birthday/christmas gift
(if she manages to get rid of all the grey) ;)
Message edited by author 2007-11-19 10:23:25. |
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11/19/2007 11:08:55 AM · #73 |
| I tip often...at the coffee house, I usually put a dollar and any coins I receive in the tip jar when they give me my change. I tip 15% - 20% at restaurants, and more if the service is great or if the service from the waiter/waitress is exceptional. I tip the hairstylist, and I've several times I've tried to tip the bagboys at the grocery store but their management doesn't allow it so I quit trying. I even tip the girls who bring my food out to me at our local Sonic Drive-In hamburger stand. I might just be too nice, but I remember waiting tables many a night while working my way through college so I try to help out as best I can. |
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