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02/11/2004 03:13:32 PM · #1 |
I know this subject has been covered in some detail but forgive me, I am compelled to raise it again.
What is dpchallenge about.. digital photography or digital art? Whilst the two can be intrinsically linked, I believe they are fundamentally different. Since the move to the Advanced Editing Rules, I am becoming increasingly uneasy about the use of Photoshop/software editing in photographs. It seems every challenge pushes the photographs further away from being purely about skill and creativity with a camera (which happens to be digital) and more towards skill in the digital darkroom. For example the winner of the 'Your Shadow' challenge; 'Touching Up my shadow' to me is a clear move away from the acceptable use of Photoshop as stated in the Rules: 'This means you are free to use dodging and burning tools to correct exposure issues, use the clone tool to remove dust spots, use third-party image enhancement filters, etc. to make your photo "the best it can be". ' to instead, making a photograph into something it couldn't have otherwise been without the aid of Photoshop. You may say that he could have achieved a similar effect by really painting his shadow on the wall, this is true and, in my opinion, what should have been done to achieve what was clearly a clever and winning concept. I believe that the use of Photoshop fundamentally changed the photograph and therefore did not "hold photographic integrity in the highest regard" as also stated in the Rules. However, that is open to interpretation and I accept that it may just my interpretation that is causing my problem. I would be interested to hear other opinions and understand that I am not criticising the photographer or the photograph, but rather raising what I believe to be the ambiguity of the rules and the trend that it seems to be causing. |
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02/11/2004 03:26:27 PM · #2 |
I completely agree and note that if I had the slightest inclination towards entering a challenge recently, if I saw 'advanced editing rules' I just stayed away, knowing that I would not use these and thus my photographs would pale in comparison to what was entered.
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02/11/2004 03:30:52 PM · #3 |
| I couldn't agree more. Whilst I appreciate the winner of 'Your Shadow' as a very clever bit of digital art it would be better as a competition entry on //www.worth1000.com or similar. When you require the use of PS to make a shot work (not to simply tidy it up or improve elements of it) then you are straying too far for a digital photography challenge. Don't misunderstand me - I really like photoshop challenges, but unless I missed the point somewhere this isn't what dpchallenge is supposed to be about. I voted against the advanced editing rules because I feared that they would be stretched and stretched until we ended up with what becomes pretty much an editing competition. Some of the recent winners show that this has become the case. Great art, yes. Great photographs, no. |
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02/11/2004 03:35:11 PM · #4 |
Originally posted by jdimaiuta:
I completely agree and note that if I had the slightest inclination towards entering a challenge recently, if I saw 'advanced editing rules' I just stayed away, knowing that I would not use these and thus my photographs would pale in comparison to what was entered. |
That, my friend, is the sort of confusion which is the source of the problems. If you are able to produce "real" photography, there is no digital art who can scare you (besides.. they should not be compared).
It's just about splitting the categories properly and, for people, to understand that they are two different things like water and oil, fire and ice, etc...
To make things more complicated is that, differently from the simple samples I mentioned, there can be infinite relationships between digital art and photography and that's what confuses all of us.
Mmm... I tought that the definitions on my site were pretty good, but maybe PhotoArt should be extinguished and replaced by Digital Art. It should help, somehow, to make the difference clearer.
Still PhotoArt is a concept which achieved quite a bit of diffusion in the world..
Maybe the first thing which we should ask ourselves is why do we make a distinction and, even more, why do we set rules.... |
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02/11/2004 03:42:42 PM · #5 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
(besides.. they should not be compared).
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THIS is the crux of the matter. I also don't believe they should be compared. I don't think its fair to compare traditional photographic styles with the newer digital manipulations, especially in a competitive mode.
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02/11/2004 03:48:47 PM · #6 |
Haven't we flogged this horse enough in the other 2 bazillion threads on the same subject???
..............................sigh...............................
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02/11/2004 03:49:31 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Haven't we flogged this horse enough in the other 2 bazillion threads on the same subject???
..............................sigh............................... |
Yes but the horse is still not dead.
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02/11/2004 03:53:03 PM · #8 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Haven't we flogged this horse enough in the other 2 bazillion threads on the same subject???
..............................sigh............................... |
Yes but the horse is still not dead. |
Will someone PLEASE put it out of its misery.
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02/11/2004 03:53:05 PM · #9 |
All respect to glimpses but I think that both dan_pendleton and jdimaiuta were talking about DPChallenge, not his site? The latter is billed as 'a contest about Photography and Art'. Dp challenge is 'a digital photography contest'. I can see a clear difference and think it's more than just semantics.
glimpses own site rules suggest that 'Even if every technique is allowed, the final outcome should still belong to the realm of photography. As a general guideline, if the challenger's work does include some hand-made drawing or painting, then it should be posted as PhotoArt instead of DP.'
Without rules we have anarchy. This is fun but not terribly productive. |
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02/11/2004 04:05:56 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Haven't we flogged this horse enough in the other 2 bazillion threads on the same subject???
..............................sigh...............................
Yes but the horse is still not dead.
Will someone PLEASE put it out of its misery. |
My apologies.. as I said at the start of my thread, I felt compelled.. just as you were compelled to join this thread anyway. When people stop feeling stongly enough to post comment, the thread will die, in the meantime the horse lives. |
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02/11/2004 04:14:14 PM · #11 |
Giles, I partecipate to these discussions because, as I mentioned in some other thread, I think they have been the real and inimitable strength of DPC so far.
I was not proposing of removing any rule but to reflect on the reasons who made them. Also, the same suggestion was addressed to myself and that's why I had to mention my personal experience and thoughts (which happens to be manifested on the site).
You are right that DPC is (or at least it has been) definitely about digital photography, in fact, I was very surprised about the recent change and the way it was formulated.
In truth, conversating about these matters can get very complicated so I do understand invitations to drop them and have a better more relaxed time.
It's just that sometime we start asking questions to ourselves and we cannot just stop that process..
Looking back at the thread what I see is quite a bit of confusion and I don't see it as a truly negative issue. Very much, in fact, depends on the way to get out of it.
In my intention, these sort of conversations should help.
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02/11/2004 04:17:16 PM · #12 |
besides, I definitely am on the horse side!
I wonder how would you feel if they want to flog you. =) |
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02/11/2004 05:02:37 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by glimpses:
You are right that DPC is (or at least it has been) definitely about digital photography, in fact, I was very surprised about the recent change and the way it was formulated. |
The rules were implemented that way to prevent the Site Council from being in the position of voting on 40 photos every week as to whether there was "too much" editing. We attempted to leave the subjective part of the evaluation to the voters and photographers.
Imagine one of these threads which goes back and forth about a photo, only about a real DQ. No thank you ... the only way I can really see having any sort of judgement made about whether something "crosses the line" is to have an anonymous autocrat* assigned to each challenge, with absolute and unappealable authority to DQ/validate any photo.
*Possibly an under-caffeinated SC member who just finished with a 4.6274 in the last challenge. |
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02/11/2004 06:20:08 PM · #14 |
| Your just hungry for some power to wield. :) |
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02/11/2004 06:45:47 PM · #15 |
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02/11/2004 06:59:19 PM · #16 |
When looking at the winning Shadow result, what else, besides the obvious brush strokes, is "digital art?"
If the explanation on what was done was not there, what else? It looks like a very well done photo with just the brush strokes to me. You would have never known anything else was done if not told and it was not in the advanced editin competition.
This is where the almost out of camera ones are gonna be hurt, because people are going to judge everything on how much PS they "thnk" was done to it. What a bummer for something so fun.
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02/11/2004 07:11:55 PM · #17 |
They have a 'Beat a Dead Horse' Button.
:)
We could order in bulk and save!!!
//www.cheapbuttons.com/customers.html
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02/11/2004 07:18:33 PM · #18 |
crap, links arent working :/
Message edited by author 2004-02-11 19:21:40. |
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02/11/2004 08:00:10 PM · #19 |
.
Message edited by author 2004-02-12 19:12:21. |
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02/11/2004 08:00:29 PM · #20 |
| Just yesterday I was reading a post on the history of photography. I subscribe to the more strict interpretation of photography. I cannot paint, draw, sketch or sculpt. I can however take a photograph that pleases the eye. The early days saw photography critisized as it too correctly reproduced us, the image of the Creator. That was the original basis, the most exact reproduction of the real, in image form. I have spent countless hours in the B&W darkroon and used the paint brush only to touch up dust. Adding to the image with the so called digital darkroom is another art. It is just a pure, but it is not in my opinion the essence of photography. I continue to enter contests as I love photography. I don't enter for prizes, I enter to share my little reproduction of the world and will continue to use PS only to its minimum; Brightness, contrast, focus and cloning for dust etc. This is not a critisism of those who do otherwise but a statement of my own belief in the art of photography. Thanks for letting me ramble. |
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02/11/2004 08:12:22 PM · #21 |
The dark side is growing stronger. If you are against the advanced editing rules, save $25 and stay in the photography challenges.
It says a lot that the winners of the last two member challenges were heavily photochopped to create the image. |
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02/11/2004 08:51:48 PM · #22 |
I don't think the last 2 winners would qualify as "heavily' Photoshopped.
This is heavily PS'ed:
Photoshopped
Message edited by author 2004-02-11 20:58:52.
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02/11/2004 09:08:14 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I don't think the last 2 winners would qualify as "heavily' Photoshopped.
This is heavily PS'ed:
Photoshopped |
The 'amount' of photoshop that is applied is hardly the issue. It boils down to 'what' and not 'how much'. People seem to continue to ignore this.
It's really simple when you think about it. If the 'impact' of the photo is created with software, then it's most likely 'too much' if you want to call it photography.
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02/11/2004 09:09:19 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I don't think the last 2 winners would qualify as "heavily' Photoshopped.
This is heavily PS'ed: |
Likewise ... Original:  Final:  |
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02/11/2004 10:54:36 PM · #25 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I don't think the last 2 winners would qualify as "heavily' Photoshopped.
This is heavily PS'ed:
Photoshopped |
The 'amount' of photoshop that is applied is hardly the issue. It boils down to 'what' and not 'how much'. People seem to continue to ignore this.
It's really simple when you think about it. If the 'impact' of the photo is created with software, then it's most likely 'too much' if you want to call it photography. |
Would it be 'too much' if the 'impact' was created in a darkroom, using traditional techniques? Much of what is being bickered about in these threads is possible in a darkroom with film based techniques. PS just makes it easier, faster and more accessible to the average person. Would there be the possibility of a film based image being called "heavily darkroomed", or some equivalent to that?
The 'what' is difficult to define because it's totally subjective. Everyone will have a different definition of what constitutes 'too much'.
Just as being a good film photographer requires a certain level of competence in applying darkroom skills and techniques, being a good digital photographer requires the same of Photoshop or similar imaging software.
For me, the process is largely irrelevant, the product is what matters. If you can create a photographic quality image entirely in PS that I can't distinguish from a real image, does it really matter? If I see a photo that just blows me away, why should its effect on me be diminished by later discovering that it was manipulated, enhanced or created after the fact using a commonly used photographic tool, be that in the darkroom or in a computer? Why does the process used matter, other than simply satisfying the curiousity in answering the "How'd they do that?" question?
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