LucisArts, Photomatix and Virtual Photographer (Deprecated - see first post

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

10/15/2007 08:27:51 PM · #26

Originally posted by scalvert:

Originally posted by frisca:
Anyone who wishes to discuss Shadow/Highlight in the context of this announcement is invited to do so in a separate thread. Hopefully we can keep this thread on topic as well.

AHEM! It was a very simple request. Let's keep this thread on topic please. :-/

ok, moving over there now.

frisca

Nikon D70

10/15/2007 08:32:18 PM · #27

Simms -- this announcement is not personal nor is it a decision made solely by me or made lightly. My challenge entry history is my own, and there are many ways to participate here and stay in touch that have nothing to do with entering. Please don't make this personal.

Simms

Nikon AF Nikkor 50mm f/1.8D

10/15/2007 08:33:43 PM · #28

Originally posted by frisca:

Sorry Frisca, I fully understand that, I just picked you out of the hat because you was the OP. I didnt set out to single you out. Like any SC announcement, any disagreements are directed at the SC as a whole, not the parts that make up the whole.

apologies if I offended ye.

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 20:35:14.

frisca

Nikon D70

10/15/2007 08:36:18 PM · #29

Originally posted by Simms:

Originally posted by frisca:
Simms -- this announcement is not personal nor is it a decision made solely by me or made lightly. My challenge entry history is my own, and there are many ways to participate here and stay in touch that have nothing to do with entering. Please don't make this personal.

Sorry Frisca, I fully understand that, I just picked you out of the hat because you was the OP. I didnt set out to single you out. Like any SC announcement, any disagreements are directed at the SC as a whole, not the parts that make up the whole.

apologies if I offended ye.

accepted, now I'm off to the other thread to try to answer your question about Lightroom.

DrAchoo

Panasonic Lumix DMC-LX5

10/15/2007 08:49:34 PM · #30

Thanks guys, I'm in agreement with the ruling even though I enjoyed using Photomatix in basic.

david_c

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/15/2007 08:59:06 PM · #31

Originally posted by DrAchoo:

Thanks guys, I'm in agreement with the ruling even though I enjoyed using Photomatix in basic.

This confuses me, Doc...how so? Photomatix is an HDR tool, so you're taking what...at least 3 JPEG versions of the same (RAW?) image, with modified exposure values? This seems to be a contravention of the basic ruleset, as I understood it.

Ken

10/15/2007 09:00:57 PM · #32

Originally posted by david_c:

Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Thanks guys, I'm in agreement with the ruling even though I enjoyed using Photomatix in basic.

This confuses me, Doc...how so? Photomatix is an HDR tool, so you're taking what...at least 3 JPEG versions of the same (RAW?) image, with modified exposure values? This seems to be a contravention of the basic ruleset, as I understood it.

It can be done on a single conversion from RAW.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

10/15/2007 09:01:40 PM · #33

Originally posted by frisca:

... LucisArts, Photomatix and Virtual Photographer are NOT PERMITTED to be used under the basic rule set.

...

Our apologies for any confusion this has caused and may cause. We hope this change will allow for a clearer understanding of the rules.

Ummm...is the Basic ruleset going to be actually updated sometime soon? Still reads the same.

Side note - I've been here nearly 3 years and trying to keep the rules straight, even semi-knowing how things work around here, seems to be getting more complicated. I can't imagine what it's like to be a newbie thinking about diving into the challenge pool.

I know...it's not a major deal to add this recent software limitation, but it will make me stop and think...which software applications can I use/not use?

Now if you start pulling the plug on specific items within applications (as being discussed in another thread)...ai-yi-YI!

david_c

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/15/2007 09:06:31 PM · #34

Originally posted by mad_brewer:

It can be done on a single conversion from RAW.

Apologies to all for going off-track, but I still don't understand. A single JPEG converted from RAW will give you one file. Photomatix is looking for 3 or more, no?

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

10/15/2007 09:07:39 PM · #35

Originally posted by david_c:

A single JPEG converted from RAW will give you one file. Photomatix is looking for 3 or more, no?

No. Photomatix can take a single RAW exposure and give it an HDR treatment.

Techo

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

10/15/2007 09:08:21 PM · #36

Originally posted by david_c:

Originally posted by mad_brewer:
It can be done on a single conversion from RAW.

Apologies to all for going off-track, but I still don't understand. A single JPEG converted from RAW will give you one file. Photomatix is looking for 3 or more, no?

If you have 16bit Tiff or RAW file you can select Tone Mapping. I've never used Photomatix in basic though.

Ken

10/15/2007 09:08:42 PM · #37

Originally posted by david_c:

It can do it from a single conversion or multiple files.

david_c

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

10/15/2007 09:39:40 PM · #38

Originally posted by scalvert:

No. Photomatix can take a single RAW exposure and give it an HDR treatment.

Well, look at that! It can, indeed, accept a RAW file and convert it to a pseudo-HDR...boy, now I feel like I missed out. :-/

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

10/15/2007 09:55:22 PM · #39

Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by Simms:

I dont disagree that you are busy with the site, but thats exactly what I mean when I say the SC seem to be losing touch with the common DPCer, most of them came to this site for their love of photography, then one year or so down the line, the photography part has gone and they are 100% admin.

The site council break down is as follows:

karmat --Entered 323 challenges, 22 since June 1st
GeneralE -- entered ~~287~~, 40 since June
...

Darned typos!

Challenges Entered: 487

And I think I'm one of the stronger proponents of a simpler, more limited toolset for the Basic Rules.

As others have mentioned, it's both an introduction for people new to digital photography and a set of limitations within which you have to work -- one which is intended (by me, at least) to be more understandable to the average user than the current rules, and less subject to the need for subjective decisions on the part of the SC.

Ken

10/15/2007 10:07:03 PM · #40

Originally posted by jdannels:

CS's shadows/highlights adjustment is ok still in Basic?

ETA:or what about 16-32-16 bit tonemapping emulation in this tutorial which currently is listed as ok for Basic Editing. It is CS2's equivalent of tonemapping for PhotoMatix.

There are also other programs out there to do tonemapping, so I'm assuming that that are all illegal under basic also.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

10/15/2007 10:12:19 PM · #41

May I ask what is the point of banning these? Granted LucisArts and Virtual Photographer were designed to produce effects but Photomatix was meant as a corrective tool much like the non-software equivalent the gradient ND filter.

Why not just ban the use of these tools when they are used as effects? This would also allow you to universally ban any special effect from a tool without having to respond to each and every new product that hits the market. Basically, if you can't tell it was used then it's legal. Isn't that what the basic ruleset was meant (i.e. render the scene as it was)? Why ban some things that helps to that end?

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 22:17:49.

Nikon D200

10/15/2007 10:26:30 PM · #42

Originally posted by yanko:

That's a good goal, but it relies on subjective decisions on how much is too much (an effect) and results in more inconsistency, something we are trying to avoid. :)

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Fujifilm XF 55-200mm f/3.5-4.8 R LM OIS

10/15/2007 10:27:31 PM · #43

Originally posted by yanko:

Shadow/Highlight, Levels and such are global adjustments that affect identical pixels equally (all 50% gray pixels would get the same adjustment). Photomatix works in a different manner and can alter identical pixels in different ways depending upon surrounding areas of contrast.

Originally posted by yanko:

Why not just ban the use of these tools when they are used as effects? This would also allow you to universally ban any special effect from a tool without having to respond to each and every new product that hits the market. Basically, if you can't tell it was used then it's legal. Isn't that what the basic ruleset was meant (i.e. render the scene as it was)?

Personally, I'd love to do exactly that, and maybe it will work that way at some point, but our goal here was simple objectivity rather than having users second-guess what we might consider an effect. Either way, some people will be upset.

ursula

Fujifilm X-T2

10/15/2007 10:36:16 PM · #44

Originally posted by yanko:

You just wait. I think our next move will be to outlaw cameras, since, as Simms pointed out, hardly any SC use them anymore. :)

10/15/2007 10:43:52 PM · #45

Originally posted by scalvert:

Now you are bringing up another issue. The software is making a selection as you have outlined. When I use levels and move the black point I'm not effecting the whites at all. Well shades of white but not the pure white. Maybe we should just nix the basic ruleset and just use the Minimal ruleset in it's place? That at least would end these hair splitting defenses like these. :P

Message edited by author 2007-10-15 22:45:51.

10/15/2007 10:51:10 PM · #46

Originally posted by L2:

Originally posted by yanko:
Why not just ban the use of these tools when they are used as effects? This would also allow you to universally ban any special effect from a tool without having to respond to each and every new product that hits the market.

That's a good goal, but it relies on subjective decisions on how much is too much (an effect) and results in more inconsistency, something we are trying to avoid. :)

True, consistency seems to be the biggest issue people have but I was thinking to be real strict with it. In other words, if it's at all noticable it gets a no vote. Surely all 12 of ya think alike by now right? :P

10/15/2007 10:52:38 PM · #47

Originally posted by ursula:

Originally posted by yanko:
May I ask what is the point of banning these? Granted LucisArts and Virtual Photographer were designed to produce effects but Photomatix was meant as a corrective tool much like the non-software equivalent the gradient ND filter.

Why not just ban the use of these tools when they are used as effects? This would also allow you to universally ban any special effect from a tool without having to respond to each and every new product that hits the market. Basically, if you can't tell it was used then it's legal. Isn't that what the basic ruleset was meant (i.e. render the scene as it was)? Why ban some things that helps to that end?

You just wait. I think our next move will be to outlaw cameras, since, as Simms pointed out, hardly any SC use them anymore. :)

Well I'm convinced you use a paintbrush and not a camera to begin with. :P

scalvert

Canon EOS-5D Mark III

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

10/15/2007 10:52:41 PM · #48

Originally posted by yanko:

The software is making a selection as you have outlined. When I use levels and move the black point I'm not effecting the whites at all.

Global tonal adjustments have never been the issue. The problem was selectively altering areas of identical RGB values to yield non-identical results.

Nikon D200

10/15/2007 10:54:20 PM · #49

Originally posted by yanko:

Originally posted by L2:

Originally posted by yanko:
Why not just ban the use of these tools when they are used as effects? This would also allow you to universally ban any special effect from a tool without having to respond to each and every new product that hits the market.

That's a good goal, but it relies on subjective decisions on how much is too much (an effect) and results in more inconsistency, something we are trying to avoid. :)

True, consistency seems to be the biggest issue people have but I was thinking to be real strict with it. In other words, if it's at all noticable it gets a no vote. Surely all 12 of ya think alike by now right? :P

Hey! Are you trying to tell me that you haven't sucked me over to the dark side with YOU?!! :)

The choices are: apparent inconsistencies or artistic freedom. What's more important to the userbase?

--EviL2