Al Gore Wins Nobel Peace Prize - DPChallenge Forums

12/13/2007 10:38:09 AM · #76

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Louis:
I mean itÃ¢€™s perfectly possible that heÃ¢€™s a hypocrite... So even if Gore is the completest hypocrite, it has no bearing on his claims."

As I have posted elsewhere, what is the "appropriate" number of energy units for each person/family/city/country etc? If a person engages in zero emissions activities like canoeing, bicyling, hiking/backpacking, etc, then do they get to accumulate points towards say a higher emmisions vehicle? Or do they just forfeit any "credits" to be gobbled up by the Nobel Prize winning Al Gore consumption empire, or the other globe trotters who consume massive quantities of fuel flying to all manner of places. If we are serious about the address of emissions, then get serious. Otherwise it is just hyperbole, feel good hyperbole, aimed at pitting one group of consumers against another.

What the hell are you talking about? Why don't you just do something instead of complaining?

12/13/2007 11:35:54 AM · #77

Originally posted by Louis:

Originally posted by Flash:

Originally posted by Louis:
I mean itÃ¢€™s perfectly possible that heÃ¢€™s a hypocrite... So even if Gore is the completest hypocrite, it has no bearing on his claims."

As I have posted elsewhere, what is the "appropriate" number of energy units for each person/family/city/country etc? If a person engages in zero emissions activities like canoeing, bicyling, hiking/backpacking, etc, then do they get to accumulate points towards say a higher emmisions vehicle? Or do they just forfeit any "credits" to be gobbled up by the Nobel Prize winning Al Gore consumption empire, or the other globe trotters who consume massive quantities of fuel flying to all manner of places. If we are serious about the address of emissions, then get serious. Otherwise it is just hyperbole, feel good hyperbole, aimed at pitting one group of consumers against another.

What the hell are you talking about? Why don't you just do something instead of complaining?

What I am talking about is; who is/are the people/groups needing to improve? Everybody? If it is everybody, then what constitutes an improvement? Is the fact that I canoe instead of owning a powerboat an improvement. Is the fact that I ride a motorcycle that gets 50mpg instead of driving a '65 Pontiac GTO that gets 6 mpg when the triple carburaters are opened up, an improvement? Is the fact that I use nearly no lights in my house during the evening an improvement over those households that have 2,3,4,6,8 children, a half dozen TV's/computers, laundry 5 days a week, etc. an improvement? Does the person who lives in a 500 sq ft apartment qualify as an "improvement generator" over a homeowner who lives in a 1200, 1500, 2000, 2500, 4500 sq ft home?

This nebulus statement "do something", what does that mean? What is the definition of doing something and who is going to define it. My point is that the US is "doing something", but the Al Gores of the world say that is not the right thing to be doing. So, how big of a living space is alloted to each person/family/group/city/state etc? How much energy is each allowed? If spending 37 Billion dolars on energy improvements is NOT DOING ANYTHING, then please explain what is.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

12/13/2007 12:18:44 PM · #78

Uh huh... so until all these nebulous questions about doing something are resolved for you in excruciating detail, you'll continue to pretend that everything's peachy and do absolutely nothing to improve the environment that sustains your life, is that it?

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

12/13/2007 12:22:29 PM · #79

Louis, I don't think that is what he is saying at all. I've read several of his posts, and he is pretty specific in what "he" is doing.

I think what he is saying is the US is constantly being accused of doing *nothing* in this issue. If what the US is doing is *nothing,* then what would substantiate SOMETHING?

12/13/2007 01:01:17 PM · #80

I think this is an interesting read.

RonB

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

12/13/2007 01:05:21 PM · #81

Originally posted by Louis:

If you consider using a canoe instead of a power boat, riding a motorcycle instead of driving a car, and using fewer lights at night, doing "absolutely nothing", but you can't see "what else" someone "raising awareness" while generating astounding amounts of CO2 could be doing, then I think you have lost all ability to reason

12/13/2007 01:16:31 PM · #82

Originally posted by RonB:

Originally posted by Louis:
Uh huh... so until all these nebulous questions about doing something are resolved for you in excruciating detail, you'll continue to pretend that everything's peachy and do absolutely nothing to improve the environment that sustains your life, is that it?
If you consider using a canoe instead of a power boat, riding a motorcycle instead of driving a car, and using fewer lights at night, doing "absolutely nothing", but you can't see "what else" someone "raising awareness" while generating astounding amounts of CO2 could be doing, then I think you have lost all ability to reason

Oops! You're right, in my haste to read quickly through his replies, I missed the "I" part of what he himself was doing. Sorry.

12/13/2007 01:35:05 PM · #83

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Also.....do some more homework.....the Hybrids?

They cost more energy to build, operate, and deal with the disposal of batteries than a regular car. The cradle-to-grave trail for those cars sucks!

Originally posted by MQuinn:

This is totally wrong! Where the heck are you getting the info for this or just a gut feeling?

Hybrid batteries

I say stick to facts.

Um....I am.

Where do I get my info?

Thirty plus years in the automotive industry watching hare-brained ideas come and go.......cow magnets increase gas mileage???????

Because of the limited production, they cost a bunch more to build, they cost more out the door, and those two things alone indicate that hybrids aren't a viable alternative.

This is relatively benign, otherwise I figure you'll ignore what I come up with entirely, Battery Technology but maybe you should research the costs involved, the *actual* usage of these cars.....you'd be stunned at how many owners do not utilize them efficiently, they merely have them 'cause they think it's a good idea, and they're really not enough of an advantage over some of the extremely efficicent fossil fuel vehicles out there, so why spend so much on technology of limited usage?

I'm just sick of the whole "Better Mousetrap" schemes that have come and gone because nobody seems to ever be conscious of the long term effects of the "Great Ideas".

Nobody has really come up with much in the way of improvements for the automobile until computer management came into play, and that took damn near 20 years to get really efficient, and because of that curve, we've literally got millions of vehicles sitting around as unrepairable because those early computer systems were so abysmally bad.

Originally posted by MQuinn:

What Al Gore did (Like him or not) was to raise awareness for the fact adding CO2 or simply burning carbon raises the levels in the atmosphere. Which in turn raises the atmospheric temp, due to the greenhouse effect.

Not for intelligent, informed people.

Go back and read one of my previous posts about the greenhouse effect......that phrase was coined around 1830, most likely a week or two before Gore was born.

That fact that we've been fouling our own nests has been apparent for decades, and I sure as Hell never heard of Al Gore 'til a few years ago.

And I can tell you I have done a lot more on a personal level to make sure that MY corner of the world is less damaged by me than most, and I even pick up trash that others throw on the ground. I don't just tell all my friends that we have a littering problem.....I don't have to do that. They're sharp enough to notice all by themselves.

My point is that all too many people do nothing or too little. I really don't see how going around pointing out issues is comparable to actually doing something.

That's the problem with all these people that love to be in the public eye.....they just want ratings, they usually don't actually do anything.

Look, I go out of my way to do the best I can to not be a blight on the world.....and I am, and have been since the original Earth Day very conscientious about my footprint in life......I just can't get next to Al Gore being a "Hero of the People".

Message edited by author 2007-12-13 13:49:25.

Olympus 14-54mm f/2.8-3.5 Zuiko Digital Zoom

12/13/2007 01:43:31 PM · #84

I think the old "Actions speak louder than words" adage seriously applies here......Gore would carry a lot more weight with me if he would actually use his infamy to raise consciouness about things actually being done than what we need to fix.

If he'd demonstrate, for instance, that he is using markedly less energy by changing the way *HE* does things, that would carry so much more weight towards influencing action.

He's a slut for the spotlight, and I don't believe for one minute that if he was really all about saving the planet that he'd be spending so much time on "Public Awareness".

The only thing I'm more aware of since this whole thing is how much controversy there's been about it.

MQuinn

Olympus OM-D E-M1

12/13/2007 08:10:14 PM · #85

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Where do I get my info?

Thirty plus years in the automotive industry watching hare-brained ideas come and go.......cow magnets increase gas mileage???????

I dunno of any OEM ever using or endorsing cow magnets or any other type of aftermarket increase fuel economy device. What the manufacture does do is what is called a performance triangle Economy-Performance-Reliablity. This is how they engineer the powertrain system.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Because of the limited production, they cost a bunch more to build, they cost more out the door, and those two things alone indicate that hybrids aren't a viable alternative.

This is relatively benign, otherwise I figure you'll ignore what I come up with entirely, Battery Technology but maybe you should research the costs involved, the *actual* usage of these cars.....you'd be stunned at how many owners do not utilize them efficiently, they merely have them 'cause they think it's a good idea, and they're really not enough of an advantage over some of the extremely efficicent fossil fuel vehicles out there, so why spend so much on technology of limited usage?

Again I would love to see your facts on this, the numbers of hybrids sold each year is rapidly increasing 245% from 04 to 05 alone.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I'm just sick of the whole "Better Mousetrap" schemes that have come and gone because nobody seems to ever be conscious of the long term effects of the "Great Ideas".

I dunno a full size luxury sports car that goes 0-60mph in 5.2 sec and still gets 27-28mpg seems like a cool thing. Lexus GS450h

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Nobody has really come up with much in the way of improvements for the automobile until computer management came into play, and that took damn near 20 years to get really efficient, and because of that curve, we've literally got millions of vehicles sitting around as unrepairable because those early computer systems were so abysmally bad.

Unrepairable?! What cars? I would love to know what cars you deem on repairable, because I can always fix um! BTW Im ASE CMAT L1 Have about 100k in tools and equipment and its my full time job...

12/13/2007 10:46:02 PM · #86

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Where do I get my info?

Thirty plus years in the automotive industry watching hare-brained ideas come and go.......cow magnets increase gas mileage???????

Originally posted by MQuinn:

I like your triangle thingie.....you get that from marketing school?

You think the consumer isn't the beta curve?

THAT'S how they engineer the powertrain.

Like it wasn't obvious that I was being facetious with the cow magnets!

Okay, then how about the Cadillac V8-6-4, the original 5.7 GM diesel, Ford's VV carburetor, Ford's ignition modules, Chrysler's Lean Burn, ALL of the early turbocharged cars, GM's pathetic venture into real fuel injection in the '70s, then they couldn't manage it again 'til '84.....trust me, I can give you chapter and verse, and if I need to, I can go international, too.

Do you know how long that Detroit has been trying to make a reliable turbocharged vehicle?

Do you know what a DAF Variomatic is and how long that took to develop into a viable system?

Do you have any idea how long Detroit resisted engine evolution before they were forced into it by emissions concerns?

There has been on the shelf technology available for decades that Detroit refused to assimilate because they were making money without it......AND.....they wouldn't leave well enough alone when they did finally start changing, and had to reinvent the wheel all over again, constantly costing themselves, and the poor consumer jillions of unnecessary dollars.

And before you start talking about the problem just being in this country's industry, where do you think that the majority of the world's car industry has their customers?

If it wasn't for the US market, most automakers elsewhere in the world would fold.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by MQuinn:

Again I would love to see your facts on this, the numbers of hybrids sold each year is rapidly increasing 245% from 04 to 05 alone.

Umm....okay, and that would be what percentage of total auto production? For what marked gain?

Hybrids just didn't turn out to be as efficient as they were touted to be......just like bio-diesel, a good idea a little short of effective end result.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I'm just sick of the whole "Better Mousetrap" schemes that have come and gone because nobody seems to ever be conscious of the long term effects of the "Great Ideas".

Originally posted by MQuinn:

I dunno a full size luxury sports car that goes 0-60mph in 5.2 sec and still gets 27-28mpg seems like a cool thing. Lexus GS450h

Well, since you asked, my Ford 500 Limited has plenty of acceleration, dunno the exact figures, but it goes like stink, and turns in about 25 average, and we live on a mountainside and do combined driving with it.

Oh, and it's a FULL sized luxury car, four wheel independent suspension, traction control, four wheel disc/ABS, CVT, rack and pinion, and did I mention that it's also AWD????

Keep your Lexus.....oh, and that wouldn't be AWD, either would it.....sorry, wouldn't cut it where I live.....oh, and a hybird isn't worth beans here, either since we don't live on a flat and my wife commutes about 40 miles......EACH WAY.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by MQuinn:

Unrepairable?! What cars? I would love to know what cars you deem on repairable, because I can always fix um! BTW Im ASE CMAT L1 Have about 100k in tools and equipment and its my full time job..

Sure you can....so can I.....if we want to spend thousands on cars that when you're done are worth hundreds. Are you telling me that you're unaware of this? I don't make a habit of encouraging people to throw good money after bad and repair something if it's not a sound recommendation. That's a mass merchant and dealer technique that makes the public hate and mistrust mechanics.

If you're as accomplished as you say you are, then you know exactly what I'm talking about.....all those relatively decent '80s and '90s cars that are out there that need emissions and engine management work that vastly exceed their worth....not to mention the cute little problems like say.....Chrysler's LIFETIME ABS WARRANTY!!!!

Wanna tell the folks about that?

I got out of the car industry after 30 years because it's going to implode. The technology is improving faster than the people who work on the cars, if you don't work in a dealer, you cannot get the flow of information without hideous expense, or industrial espionage; even at the dealer level, the flow of information sucks! I just left a Ford dealer a couple of months ago, and Ford is having major issues with their A/C systems exploding internally and wiping out the entire systems.....and a fix is not forthcoming from Ford. So what is the guy in the aftermarket supposed to do for the guy whose Explorer is at 41K, and the A/C system takes a hike because of a design problem that Ford won't admit to? The proper way to fix it? $3000+ in parts and labor.....for a 2006 Explorer that they're still making $450 a month payments for? Yippie! Gimme some of that!

And truth be told, mechanics by and large are resistant to change, unwilling and/or afraid to embrace new technology, and aren't much interested in spending the massive amount of time and money necessary to TRY to stay current. And those are the rule, not the exception. I know very few mechanics that are eager to learn if they can get by.

Oh, and yeah, I have factory training up the wazoo, I went to every class and seminar by manufacturers I could, and I had all my ASE master tech certs.....for whatever they're worth......they don't indicate anything more than being able to regurgitate info, they have no reflection on your actual diagnostic and repair skills.....I know people who test well, yet don't bother to look at a gas gauge when a car rolls in for a no-start condition. I also had my own shop for over 15 years, and the first thing that I learned was where to go, and who to talk to for help, 'cause the amount of info needed to stay REASONABLY COMPETENT is absolutely unbelieveable.

I'm really afraid of the direction that the auto manufacturers are going with the available service personnel that are there to take care of the cars. And God help save us from the engineers who don't have to deal with all of this outside their controlled environments.

Sorry to get somewhat off topic, but part of what I've been doing over the past 30+ years, is serious end user management of these vehicles that are long gone from the minds of the engineers and are languishing in people's back yards and driveways, out in the field at the farm, because nobody will even take the car any more.....you have to pay to have them hauled away because they aren't even viable for salvage. I can't even begin to tell you how many cars I've drug out, and recycled PROPERLY, and in some cases, completely rebuilt and put into service in one form or another......and then properly recycled, or disposed of what was left over.

Yeah, sometimes it took that little extra effort, but it's worth it for my planet.

So yeah.....I do know about these changes and improvements, and how they'll shake down in all too many cases, I pay attention......there have been way more useless ideas than good ones, and if you're as versed in the industry as what you say you are, then you should know that, too.

12/13/2007 11:15:13 PM · #87

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Do you know how long that Detroit has been trying to make a reliable turbocharged vehicle?

They should take lessons from VW.

12/14/2007 05:57:45 AM · #88

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Do you know how long that Detroit has been trying to make a reliable turbocharged vehicle?

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

They should take lessons from VW.

Or Mercedes, or Audi, and what's stupid is that they've been used successfully on big trucks for years.

It's just small trucks and cars they can't seem to get.

12/14/2007 06:43:18 AM · #89

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Do you know how long that Detroit has been trying to make a reliable turbocharged vehicle?

They should take lessons from VW.

I thought that was a main reason GM bought Saab. Their turbo expertise is reknowned.

12/14/2007 07:14:19 AM · #90

at least Gore is doing something

But this quote is telling and speaks volumes to my earlier reference on sq feet allotments;

"Stephen Smith, executive director of the Southern Alliance for Clean Energy, said the size of Gore's house limits how much he can cut his energy consumption.

"We all need to evaluate what we legitimately need in square footage," he said."

Some might read this and interpret that at some future point we will be restricted to "x" amount of space based on the governments assessment of your needs.

Message edited by author 2007-12-14 07:16:37.

12/14/2007 09:14:35 AM · #91

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
Do you know how long that Detroit has been trying to make a reliable turbocharged vehicle?

Originally posted by Spazmo99:
They should take lessons from VW.

Or Mercedes, or Audi, and what's stupid is that they've been used successfully on big trucks for years.

It's just small trucks and cars they can't seem to get.

The problem is the inherent lag in a turbo when accelerating with a gas vehicle. A supercharger, on the other hand, since it is engine driven, has no such lag and, IMO, is the way to both increase power and improve efficiency with "smaller" gasoline engines.

Supercharging would allow a 1.8 or 1.5 liter 4cyl engine to replace a V6, with no decrease, or even an increase, in power while retaining the economy associated with the smaller engine.

Canon EF 70-200mm f/4.0L USM

12/14/2007 10:21:42 AM · #92

As if you care. Oh wait, he's a detestable hypocrite, so that means global warming is a fraud and you don't have to do anything.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

12/14/2007 10:46:13 AM · #93

Originally posted by Louis:

As if you care. Oh wait, he's a detestable hypocrite, so that means global warming is a fraud and you don't have to do anything.

It's all a cover story and a sham for the installation of his secret underground layer inside an old volcano. Solar panels, geothermal pumps, it all sounds straight out of the James Bond evil villain play book.

karmat

Apple iPhone 7

12/14/2007 11:48:42 AM · #94

Originally posted by Louis:

As if you care. Oh wait, he's a detestable hypocrite, so that means global warming is a fraud and you don't have to do anything.

Okay, now i'm confused.

Louis and Flash have quoted the exact same article. Which side is using it for defense?

milo655321

Nikon D70

Tokina AF 12-24mm f/4.0 AT-X Pro DX

12/14/2007 12:01:01 PM · #95

Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by Louis:
As if you care. Oh wait, he's a detestable hypocrite, so that means global warming is a fraud and you don't have to do anything.

Okay, now i'm confused.

Louis and Flash have quoted the exact same article. Which side is using it for defense?

Louis is using the article to defend Gore as doing the best Ã¢€œgreeningÃ¢€ possible with the house he has (which appears to be the main thrust of the article).

Flash is nitpicking and using the article to criticize Gore and his political Ã¢€œbrethrenÃ¢€ by suggesting they may try to control the sizes of houses in which people live (implying governmental meddling in people's lives).

Olympus 14-54mm f/2.8-3.5 Zuiko Digital Zoom

12/14/2007 12:19:26 PM · #96

Originally posted by milo655321:

Originally posted by karmat:

Originally posted by Louis:
As if you care. Oh wait, he's a detestable hypocrite, so that means global warming is a fraud and you don't have to do anything.

Okay, now i'm confused.

Louis and Flash have quoted the exact same article. Which side is using it for defense?

Louis is using the article to defend Gore as doing the best Ã¢€œgreeningÃ¢€ possible with the house he has (which appears to be the main thrust of the article).

Flash is nitpicking and using the article to criticize Gore and his political Ã¢€œbrethrenÃ¢€ by suggesting they may try to control the sizes of houses in which people live (implying governmental meddling in people's lives).

Milo has it pretty accurate. I did, recognize his efforts, and said so as my link. Further, as Milo points out, even the executive director of the Southern Alliance, said that Gore's house was too big, giving even more evidence of his hypocracy and offering concern for the "commoner" as to just what is acceptable? A point I made earlier when referencing one who lives in a 500 sq ft appartment versus those who live in a 1000, 1500, 2500, 4500 sq ft home. Does the person who chooses to "responsibly" live in a smaller home, thus "wasting" less energy, get any considerations towards being "greener". If they do, then what does that say about Gore? At what point does it become "better". To say that a 10,000 sq foot home is greener than a 400,000 square foot mansion, might be true, so are those criticizing the gas guzzler drivers also criticizing the "larger" homeowners and if so, how large is too large? Thus the reference to the "future" government medling.

edit to add; in its simplest form, it is the "slippery slope" argument.

Message edited by author 2007-12-14 12:22:12.

MQuinn

Olympus OM-D E-M1

12/14/2007 09:55:36 PM · #97

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I got out of the car industry after 30 years because it's going to implode. The technology is improving faster than the people who work on the cars, if you don't work in a dealer, you cannot get the flow of information without hideous expense, or industrial espionage; even at the dealer level, the flow of information sucks! I just left a Ford dealer a couple of months ago, and Ford is having major issues with their A/C systems exploding internally and wiping out the entire systems.....and a fix is not forthcoming from Ford. So what is the guy in the aftermarket supposed to do for the guy whose Explorer is at 41K, and the A/C system takes a hike because of a design problem that Ford won't admit to? The proper way to fix it? $3000+ in parts and labor.....for a 2006 Explorer that they're still making $450 a month payments for? Yippie! Gimme some of that!

Funny I have no problem getting information, factory level is easily accessable via internet. Implode is funny its been said for years and years, same old same old. So ya got out, got to hot for ya I guess. Im glad you did, don't need more negative people who hate pretty much everything about cars, good riddance to bad attitude people. If ya hate what you do I encourage them MOVE ON!

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

And truth be told, mechanics by and large are resistant to change, unwilling and/or afraid to embrace new technology, and aren't much interested in spending the massive amount of time and money necessary to TRY to stay current. And those are the rule, not the exception. I know very few mechanics that are eager to learn if they can get by.

Depends on the company you keep.. Ask MattO or BradP some great techs

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

Oh, and yeah, I have factory training up the wazoo, I went to every class and seminar by manufacturers I could, and I had all my ASE master tech certs.....for whatever they're worth......they don't indicate anything more than being able to regurgitate info, they have no reflection on your actual diagnostic and repair skills.....I know people who test well, yet don't bother to look at a gas gauge when a car rolls in for a no-start condition. I also had my own shop for over 15 years, and the first thing that I learned was where to go, and who to talk to for help, 'cause the amount of info needed to stay REASONABLY COMPETENT is absolutely unbelieveable.

Like I said it depends how dedicated is to their choosen career, I love training classes, love to learn more. Been a part of a automotive tech website for the last 12 years. Love to expand knowledge, learn from the engineers of the systems.

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I'm really afraid of the direction that the auto manufacturers are going with the available service personnel that are there to take care of the cars. And God help save us from the engineers who don't have to deal with all of this outside their controlled environments.

Sorry to get somewhat off topic, but part of what I've been doing over the past 30+ years, is serious end user management of these vehicles that are long gone from the minds of the engineers and are languishing in people's back yards and driveways, out in the field at the farm, because nobody will even take the car any more.....you have to pay to have them hauled away because they aren't even viable for salvage. I can't even begin to tell you how many cars I've drug out, and recycled PROPERLY, and in some cases, completely rebuilt and put into service in one form or another......and then properly recycled, or disposed of what was left over.

Yeah, sometimes it took that little extra effort, but it's worth it for my planet.

So yeah.....I do know about these changes and improvements, and how they'll shake down in all too many cases, I pay attention......there have been way more useless ideas than good ones, and if you're as versed in the industry as what you say you are, then you should know that, too.

Thanks for your negitive shallow view. Im glad the next generation is stepping up, while yours spools out bitching about stuff you don't want to learn. BTW you Ford 500 or is it a Taurus same old same old, doesn't hold a candle to the Lexus... I think your the one resistance to change IMHO...

Message edited by author 2007-12-14 21:56:49.

Olympus 14-54mm f/2.8-3.5 Zuiko Digital Zoom

12/14/2007 10:17:34 PM · #98

Originally posted by MQuinn:

The Lexus costs, what? Twice as much?

If you want the name, drive a Lexus. IMO, they're way overpriced and full of expensive, unnecessary gadgets.

MQuinn

Olympus OM-D E-M1

12/14/2007 10:35:25 PM · #99

Originally posted by Spazmo99:

The Lexus costs, what? Twice as much?

If you want the name, drive a Lexus. IMO, they're way overpriced and full of expensive, unnecessary gadgets.

A name that was made over only the last 17 years, of undivided quality and refinement. As far as the gadgets, guess I don't want a Chevy Aveo, but some people think they are cool...To each their own... Besides I have yet to see a 08 Ford 500 wonder why...

Besides that the Lexas GS450h has 339hp and someone is comparing it with a car with 203hp (That goes like stink) LOL... Case closed in my book, Apples to oranges...

Message edited by author 2007-12-14 22:41:27.