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08/21/2007 03:03:50 PM · #51
Originally posted by dudephil:

Asperger Syndrome?


Sounds sexy.
08/21/2007 03:05:41 PM · #52
Originally posted by Skip:

don't do it

if you're tresspassing, you can be arrested and charged.



I believe that there are quite a few DPCers who, in those circumstances, have proudly boasted of their right and desire to shoot you dead if you were to trespass onto their property.

I am not a US lawyer, but in the UK you would be on difficult ground if you conspired with others to commit a crime such as criminal vandalism and intended to use the photos for personal gain rather than, say, handing them to the police as evidence.
08/21/2007 03:28:28 PM · #53
If your neighbor's kid planned to meet his friends and take pictures while they keyed your car, how would you feel? Legally, there's no definite answer because there's a chance that if you guys get caught you could be successfully prosecuted. there's also a chance that you could hire a moderately expensive lawyer to get you off.

Thus, I think you are looking at this the wrong way. You should first see if this is something that you feel is right and that you feel comfortable with, and would feel comfortable with someone else doing to you. If not, then case closed. If you still feel it's legit, then it's time to think about the legal issues.
08/21/2007 03:28:40 PM · #54
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by BeeCee:

I don't know about the law, but my common sense tells me that if you're alone in seeing a crime being committed and thus the only one able to report it, yet failed to report it because you wanted it to continue so you could photograph it, then yes, you would be aiding and abetting.

If there were a crowd watching with cellphones in hand when you arrived, you might be excused for assuming that someone had already reported, and you could grab all the shots you wanted.


Just being there/ seeing it doesn't consist of aiding and abetting, though. You actually have to do some aiding and abetting. You have to associate and participate in the crime, somehow.


This might hold true in the USA, but in Canada there is no doubt in my mind that the OP could find himself before the tribunals.

His activities in this instance are not by sheer happenstance. He is fully aware that what is about to transpire is illegal in a variety of ways and unless he is filming from a distance would probably be guilty of at trespassing at the very least.

On a personal level, I would communicate with a lawyer and find out exactly where I stood in this regard... it might prove cheaper to talk to a lawyer before, rather than after the fact.

Ray
08/21/2007 03:43:07 PM · #55
I think were good on the legal side of things now.

"In a time where everyone has a blog, websites are relied on as news as much as news papers and tv, independent media (zines) are at the top of their game (both online and print), how does the law determine who is a proper pj and who is not?"
08/21/2007 03:45:01 PM · #56
Originally posted by ajdelaware:

If I was to go out and shoot graffiti writers as part of a series, and say we were to get arrested. Is there any crime for "documenting" illegal activities? I realize that my main problem here would probably be a trespassing charge. Also, what legal rights would my images have, as in could they be used against the graf writer?


Remembering that DPC is international and the Laws on this whole subject would vary from country to country my simple answer would be I certainly hope so.

As a person who is aware that an act against the law is planned wouldn't you be expected to make the authorities aware of it?
08/21/2007 03:45:19 PM · #57
Originally posted by ajdelaware:

I think were good on the legal side of things now.

"In a time where everyone has a blog, websites are relied on as news as much as news papers and tv, independent media (zines) are at the top of their game (both online and print), how does the law determine who is a proper pj and who is not?"


They simply arrest anyone they think is not a bona fide PJ, and if the PJ doesn't have an expensive lawyer on retainer... then bingo, they have a winner.

Ray
08/21/2007 03:58:22 PM · #58
Originally posted by Node:

As a person who is aware that an act against the law is planned wouldn't you be expected to make the authorities aware of it?


It is as you mention an international site, but most of us don't live in a police state where it is illegal not to inform on your neighbors for any laws they might break.

I think that was last tried in East Germany ?

Do you call in everyone you see speeding or rolling past a stop light ? Should it be illegal to not do that ?

Message edited by author 2007-08-21 15:59:37.
08/21/2007 04:18:45 PM · #59
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by Node:

As a person who is aware that an act against the law is planned wouldn't you be expected to make the authorities aware of it?


It is as you mention an international site, but most of us don't live in a police state where it is illegal not to inform on your neighbors for any laws they might break.

I think that was last tried in East Germany ?

Do you call in everyone you see speeding or rolling past a stop light ? Should it be illegal to not do that ?


For those of us that are curious... would you feel the same way if someone was planning to make you the victim of a crime.

While it remains true that there may be no legal obligation in similar instances, surely there are ethical issues that need to be addressed.

I for one would certainly make the authorities aware of any conspiracy wherein you or your family members were the target of some criminal element.

... and NO I don't live in East Germany, I live in Canada.

Ray

08/21/2007 04:21:52 PM · #60
Originally posted by jtf6agent:

drewbixcube,
are you a journalist?

Nope, but I had a journal when I was a kid! And from what I know about private property, journalist or not, you could easily get slapped with trespassing if you are caught in a train yard (as the OP described) unless, of course, your publication gains permission from the railroad company for you (the journalist) to be on their property (see below).

Originally posted by jtf6agent:

this is the first question anyone will ask if your cought.

If caught in a rail yard the first question will probably be âDo you have permission to be here, on this private property that has âNo Trespassingâ signs posted everywhere?â If you say, "Yes" the next question will be, "Can you prove it?"

Originally posted by jtf6agent:

As a photojournalist here in San Diego (Lawyer Meca) I have spent many hours photographing crime taking place. I have been in the middle of a fairly major riot during our famed May 1st "Day with out an Illegal Immigrant" and passed among the rioters and police lines untouched by both parties. As a "Photojournalist" and I use this term loosely you have rights of protection here in the USA.

I am going to guess this protest and subsequent riot took place on city streets and sidewalks (public property), not in a rail yard (private property).

Originally posted by jtf6agent:

If you are working for a publication and you can prove it at the time then you are nothing more than an innocent journalist and will not be held liable.

Unless you are trespassing.

Originally posted by jtf6agent:

I suggest you check with your local paper and ask if they would "Sponsor" your project your trying to photograph.

I find this to be an unlikely phone call to take place:
Editor: "Yes, hello Burlington Northern/Santa Fe, hi. I would like you to grant my photographer permission to be in your rail yard at this date and time so he can photograph people in the act of vandalizing your train cars. Ok, thanks so much, this will be a great piece on graffiti vandalism!"

BIG difference between photojournalism from a place that you have permission to be and a place that you don't have permission to be. I am guessing the railroad will not give permission for a photojournalist to be one property to photograph vandalism of their train cars. If permission is granted...be ready to photograph vandals being arrested.
-drew
08/21/2007 04:25:32 PM · #61
Originally posted by RayEthier:


For those of us that are curious... would you feel the same way if someone was planning to make you the victim of a crime.

While it remains true that there may be no legal obligation in similar instances, surely there are ethical issues that need to be addressed.


Yes, there's a significant difference between a moral obligation and a legal requirement.
08/21/2007 04:40:03 PM · #62
I think my initial post is making it hard to get to the issue I was addressing.

The issue I was addressing was simply this:

Are documentary photographers who are doing a study of a topic that includes a crime being committed (whether it be a speeding, graffiti, jay walking, it doesn't matter) liable to the same legal ramifications that the person committing the crime is, or are they granted any sort of "immunity." My examples are things like: News programs watching a hacker break into a computer system, HBO filming "HOOKERS AT THE POINT" in which prostitutes solicit johns on camera and in some cases perform (audio only), documentaries on drug abuse where they will accompany the subject while he cops and subsequently uses drugs.

Message edited by author 2007-08-21 16:42:21.
08/21/2007 05:01:43 PM · #63
Originally posted by ajdelaware:

I think my initial post is making it hard to get to the issue I was addressing.

The issue I was addressing was simply this:

Are documentary photographers who are doing a study of a topic that includes a crime being committed (whether it be a speeding, graffiti, jay walking, it doesn't matter) liable to the same legal ramifications that the person committing the crime is, or are they granted any sort of "immunity." My examples are things like: News programs watching a hacker break into a computer system, HBO filming "HOOKERS AT THE POINT" in which prostitutes solicit johns on camera and in some cases perform (audio only), documentaries on drug abuse where they will accompany the subject while he cops and subsequently uses drugs.


You might find the story of Josh Wolf instructive. It covers a lot of the issues you are asking about.

Message edited by author 2007-08-21 17:02:59.
08/21/2007 05:11:18 PM · #64
Originally posted by RayEthier:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by BeeCee:

I don't know about the law, but my common sense tells me that if you're alone in seeing a crime being committed and thus the only one able to report it, yet failed to report it because you wanted it to continue so you could photograph it, then yes, you would be aiding and abetting.

If there were a crowd watching with cellphones in hand when you arrived, you might be excused for assuming that someone had already reported, and you could grab all the shots you wanted.


Just being there/ seeing it doesn't consist of aiding and abetting, though. You actually have to do some aiding and abetting. You have to associate and participate in the crime, somehow.


This might hold true in the USA, but in Canada there is no doubt in my mind that the OP could find himself before the tribunals.

His activities in this instance are not by sheer happenstance. He is fully aware that what is about to transpire is illegal in a variety of ways and unless he is filming from a distance would probably be guilty of at trespassing at the very least.

On a personal level, I would communicate with a lawyer and find out exactly where I stood in this regard... it might prove cheaper to talk to a lawyer before, rather than after the fact.

Ray


Ray, I have to disagree with you. Just being there is not enough knowledge or not, and how would anyone prove he knew unless the others ratted him out? And even if they did, I can't see the OP being prosecuted for anything in this case. What would the crime be? Perhaps trespass, but that's it. Rather, I would say the Crown would try to make him a witness against the vandals!

One DOES have to do something to be a party (aiding and abetting is not the wording used in the criminal code, its section 21, "parties to an offence"). I know this because I unsucessfully argued that two men who were present during the beating of another man, and questioned the victim before and during the beating were parties. The judge said they were not, and she was right according to the prevailing case law in Canada.
08/21/2007 05:13:06 PM · #65
So in Canada you can listen to people plan a murder, tag along to photograph them doing it, and then go home and edit your pictures without fear of anything happening? I find that highly, highly unlikely.
08/21/2007 05:15:29 PM · #66
Originally posted by routerguy666:

So in Canada you can listen to people plan a murder, tag along to photograph them doing it, and then go home and edit your pictures without fear of anything happening? I find that highly, highly unlikely.


What law requires you to report any such matters, in Canada or the US ?

Same thing as earlier, you may well have a moral obligation, but not a legal one.
08/21/2007 05:15:53 PM · #67
Originally posted by routerguy666:

So in Canada you can listen to people plan a murder, tag along to photograph them doing it, and then go home and edit your pictures without fear of anything happening? I find that highly, highly unlikely.


Well, your photos can be taken by warrant, but you are not guilty of any crime. I'm sorry you find that to be unlikely but it is the case in countries who operate under the rule of law. What crime do you think that person is committing? Morally they are quite liable, but not criminally.

ETA: I should have just said "what Gordon said"

Message edited by author 2007-08-21 17:16:29.
08/21/2007 05:18:26 PM · #68
Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

So in Canada you can listen to people plan a murder, tag along to photograph them doing it, and then go home and edit your pictures without fear of anything happening? I find that highly, highly unlikely.


What law requires you to report any such matters, in Canada or the US ?

Same thing as earlier, you may well have a moral obligation, but not a legal one.


Misprision of a felony for starters.
08/21/2007 05:19:03 PM · #69
Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

So in Canada you can listen to people plan a murder, tag along to photograph them doing it, and then go home and edit your pictures without fear of anything happening? I find that highly, highly unlikely.


Well, your photos can be taken by warrant, but you are not guilty of any crime. I'm sorry you find that to be unlikely but it is the case in countries who operate under the rule of law. What crime do you think that person is committing? Morally they are quite liable, but not criminally.

ETA: I should have just said "what Gordon said"


No, you should be happy that countries operate under rule of law and not rule of "I think".
08/21/2007 05:19:57 PM · #70
Misprison of a felony:

criminal neglect either to prevent a felony from being committed or to bring the offender to justice after its commission, but without such previous concert with, or subsequent assistance of, him as will make the concealer an accessory before or after the fact.

08/21/2007 05:20:47 PM · #71
Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

So in Canada you can listen to people plan a murder, tag along to photograph them doing it, and then go home and edit your pictures without fear of anything happening? I find that highly, highly unlikely.


What law requires you to report any such matters, in Canada or the US ?

Same thing as earlier, you may well have a moral obligation, but not a legal one.


Misprision of a felony for starters.


That crime does not exist in Canada, but it does seem to appear in US federal criminal law.
08/21/2007 05:23:27 PM · #72
Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

So in Canada you can listen to people plan a murder, tag along to photograph them doing it, and then go home and edit your pictures without fear of anything happening? I find that highly, highly unlikely.


Well, your photos can be taken by warrant, but you are not guilty of any crime. I'm sorry you find that to be unlikely but it is the case in countries who operate under the rule of law. What crime do you think that person is committing? Morally they are quite liable, but not criminally.

ETA: I should have just said "what Gordon said"


No, you should be happy that countries operate under rule of law and not rule of "I think".


pardon me?
08/21/2007 05:26:48 PM · #73
Originally posted by frisca:

Originally posted by someoneelse:


Misprision of a felony for starters.


That crime does not exist in Canada, but it does seem to appear in US federal criminal law.


Wow. those wacky Americans. even the British threw that law out in the 60s

So from my 2 seconds of wikipedia legal knowledge, that's why the various cases of drug use, prostitution, vandalism etc above are legally okay, as they aren't felonies, so don't need to be reported.

Message edited by author 2007-08-21 17:31:14.
08/21/2007 05:52:34 PM · #74
Someone mocked me for posting this thread this morning, and I think it turned out to be a pretty good discussion about photographers rights. Man im awesome when Im not being a total dick.
08/21/2007 05:52:40 PM · #75
Originally posted by routerguy666:

Misprison of a felony:

criminal neglect either to prevent a felony from being committed or to bring the offender to justice after its commission, but without such previous concert with, or subsequent assistance of, him as will make the concealer an accessory before or after the fact.


To the best of my knowledge, vandalism isn't a felony.

~Terry
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