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DPChallenge Forums >> Tips, Tricks, and Q&A >> Ever notice color quality loss?
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 01/20/2004 09:37:17 PM · #1
Just wondering if anyone has ever noticed a color quality loss in images between having them open in PS and when they're uploaded to the site.

I find that color quality is much better on PS than once the shot is uploaded to the site or when I take a look at it with ACDSEE.

The colors seem somewhat faded and color balance seems somewhat off, with images tending to be a bit more yellow or green in tint. Weird. I had to pump magenta and red slightly on my last submission with Color Balance to obtain an image with similar colors to the ones observed on the unaltered image in PS. Weird.

01/20/2004 09:41:53 PM · #2
Yes, I have noticed this too. I have gone back and adjusted color so it would look right after the upload. I've had to do this five or six times now including my current entries.
 01/20/2004 09:43:26 PM · #3
Are you working in AdobeRGB color space in Photoshop?

Internet Explorer and most other web browsers only display things in sRGB, even if the JPEG contains an embedded profile.

Also, is your monitor calibrated? And is the calibration installed correctly? Photoshop may be applying your monitor calibration curve and not any of your other programs.

Message edited by author 2004-01-20 21:44:56.
 01/20/2004 09:43:40 PM · #4
Funny, it is the magenta on my shots as well. just add a dash and its fine again.
 01/20/2004 09:44:54 PM · #5
I am working in RGB color. I see this with both Photoshop and Paint shop programs.
 01/20/2004 09:47:47 PM · #6
I hear you! Pictures look very different when I open them in Corel Photo-Paint, Photoshop or Irfanview. Its kinda dissapointing when you spend all this time adjusting constrast and color balance one increment at a time to give you what you believe to be the absolute best mix; then you realise it looks like crap in another program, or another monitor, or when you print it out... It's because all these programs use different color spaces (interpreters) to display the pictures. I think Corel Photo-Paint has controls over different input and output color spaces so that you can calibrate color from program to program and media to media. If anyone knows anything about this, please fill me in. Until then, you just gotta realise that everyone out there is seeing a different picture than you; so don't waste too much time adjusting these things.
 01/20/2004 09:53:10 PM · #7
Photoshop is obviously "ICC-aware" and knows how to use a monitor profile; other applications are likely not.

To test this, under the "View" menu in Photoshop, use the "Proof Setup" option to switch between various color profiles ("Custom", "Working CMYK", "Monitor RGB", "Windows RGB") and toggle the "Proof Colors" option on and off.

I always work in "Monitor RGB" mode. (The secret to getting it to be the default is to select "View > Proof Setup > Monitor RGB" while you have no other windows open in Photoshop.)

Message edited by author 2004-01-20 22:02:31.
 01/20/2004 09:56:36 PM · #8
Has anybody tried converting to index mode and choosing web from the drop down menu before uploading to DPC? I haven't done that, but that may help.
 01/20/2004 09:59:02 PM · #9
Converting to "web colors" is a carry-over for days-gone-by when computers were limited to displaying 256 colors at a time (8-bit displays) and graphics needed to be restricted to a pallette of 216 "web safe" colors.
 01/20/2004 10:05:19 PM · #10
Ah, I see...I'm a newbie to PS and just read it in a book, so thought I would throw it out. Thanks for letting me know.
 01/20/2004 10:07:53 PM · #11
YEs, and most images look washed out also. It's very frustrating to say the least.
Got a new monitor, Viewsonic P95f+ which has helped somewhat.. but still not happy with how things look on line.
oh well
 01/20/2004 11:52:06 PM · #12
Don't jpegs decrease in quality everytime you save them? That could be a possibility.
 01/21/2004 02:14:53 AM · #13
Originally posted by Beagleboy:
Just wondering if anyone has ever noticed a color quality loss in images between having them open in PS and when they're uploaded to the site.

I find that color quality is much better on PS than once the shot is uploaded to the site or when I take a look at it with ACDSEE.

In my experience 'Save for Web' gives you a true impression of the image online. Sometimes I boost the saturation to compensate for the inevitable flatness.
 01/21/2004 02:23:12 AM · #14
Chances are you haven't created a profile for your display device (monitor). Even if you have, the differences between viewing your image via a web browser and in something icc-aware (like photoshop) will be relatively small (I'm making many assumptions here, albeit safe ones).

I think EddyG hit the nail on the head when he asked if your working space was Adobe RGB (1998). What happens when we edit (in 8-bit mode or converted to it) in Adobe RGB and save it directly without regard to the intended display (output) device? You get this:
Image removed from portfolio
but if you actually convert to sRGB (not a bad choice if intended for web viewing) this is how it should look:
Image removed from portfolio

So, double check that you're converting to sRGB prior to saving.

Is this the kind of colour quality loss you're seeing? The other possibility is that you do have a monitor profile but it's completely wrong for your device.

For the record, I would certainly not do as EddyG does (i.e., don't "work in Monitor RGB mode"). While it does dump the raw colour data to your monitor (much like the web browser), it's equivalent to throwing out your monitor profile. If you're editing in Adobe RGB you'll get the rough equivalent of assigning (not converting) the sRGB profile. You'll be much better off just converting to sRGB and then saving it.

Note: Once CSS3 reaches REC (don't hold your breath), compliant browsers (and pages that use it) will be able to deal with embedded (well, specified anyway) profiles appropriately.

Edit: removed sample images from portfolio.

Message edited by author 2004-05-26 05:43:13.
 01/21/2004 05:11:10 AM · #15
Originally posted by eswik:
Don't jpegs decrease in quality everytime you save them? That could be a possibility.


No - in this case the file is only being moved, not re-saved: otherwise all your images would degrade every time you opened them :-)

E
 01/21/2004 08:21:05 AM · #16
Originally posted by dwoolridge:
For the record, I would certainly not do as EddyG does (i.e., don't "work in Monitor RGB mode"). While it does dump the raw colour data to your monitor (much like the web browser), it's equivalent to throwing out your monitor profile.

Where do you get the idea that "Monitor RGB" throws away the monitor profile? According to the Photoshop Help document on Soft-proofing colors:

Monitor RGB soft-proofs colors in an RGB document using your current monitor color space as the proof profile space.

I agree that the Macintosh RGB and Windows RGB options would use "default" profiles and discard any custom calibration curves you may have.

The default viewing space for Photoshop is "Working CMYK", which is not really appropriate unless you are working with CMYK output devices (which monitors aren't). This actually causes Photoshop to shift colors in an attempt to show you on your monitor what it will look on a CMYK device.

Even color guru Bruce Fraser says in this article:

If your work is mostly for the Web, and you need Photoshop's RGB to behave the same as RGB in your non-color-managed applications, you can choose Monitor RGB as your RGB working space

Obviously I'd love to know if I'm doing something "wrong", but when I researched this a while ago, I came to the conclusion I described as the best one for working on images destined for the web.

Message edited by author 2004-01-21 08:32:51.
 01/21/2004 12:39:05 PM · #17
You can also 'convert to Profile' and use sRGB to move your image into the output colour space with some more control, before saving for web. When I notice a significant shift doing a 'save for web' I typically do a convert to profile first, and play with the rendering intents until I get something I'm happier with. I can also do some final tweaks to fix any issues I have, prior to saving into the default sRGB space for web viewing.

The advantage is you have more control over how its migrated to sRGB than you do if you just do it automatically with 'save for web' which, from what I can tell, just does an assigned profile, rather than any attempt to convert.

I typically work in a generic D60 colour space, then move to AdobeRGB for print work, then into the smaller sRGB for web output.
 01/21/2004 12:40:45 PM · #18
Originally posted by Imagineer:

I find that color quality is much better on PS than once the shot is uploaded to the site or when I take a look at it with ACDSEE.

In my experience 'Save for Web' gives you a true impression of the image online. Sometimes I boost the saturation to compensate for the inevitable flatness.[/quote]

That flatness isn't inevitable ,it is just a result of a direct assignment of an sRGB profile - you can convert to it and maintain the initial vibrancy of you do it correctly, prior to saving for the web.
 01/21/2004 12:43:13 PM · #19
Using MonitorRGB will work, assuming your default monitor profile is set correctly - it just introduces an other layer of indirection into the assignment of profiles.

I work in AdobeRGB after converting from the camera profile, and have my monitor profile set to the PhotoCal profile that I generate. I can then soft proof for a variety of output targets (inkjet, ezprints glossy or matte, web etc) and get extremely good colour matching between the targets. This seems to be the default advice for photoshop 7 and beyond too.
 01/21/2004 02:35:52 PM · #20
Originally posted by EddyG:
Originally posted by dwoolridge:
For the record, I would certainly not do as EddyG does (i.e., don't "work in Monitor RGB mode"). While it does dump the raw colour data to your monitor (much like the web browser), it's equivalent to throwing out your monitor profile.

Where do you get the idea that "Monitor RGB" throws away the monitor profile?

Unless you change these settings, "Monitor RGB" has "preserve color numbers" checked so choosing "Monitor RGB" can be misleading. In your case, all you're doing is showing yourself what this Adobe RGB image would look like on your monitor if you didn't use photoshop to view it (i.e. without the benefit of photoshop using your monitor profile). Because you've also referenced Bruce Fraser, I'll refer you to his book, Real World Color Management (page 215 specifically).

Originally posted by EddyG:
The default viewing space for Photoshop is "Working CMYK"

I think you mean it's the default entry for soft-proofing.

Originally posted by EddyG:
"If your work is mostly for the Web, and you need Photoshop's RGB to behave the same as RGB in your non-color-managed applications, you can choose Monitor RGB as your RGB working space"

Obviously I'd love to know if I'm doing something "wrong", but when I researched this a while ago, I came to the conclusion I described as the best one for working on images destined for the web.


I apologize if I misunderstood, but I interpreted your original post as indicating that you work in some wide device-independent space (like Adobe RGB) and use monitor RGB during a soft-proofing stage. If that's true, Bruce Fraser's advice above is not the same as what you're doing. Usually, one wants a working space that is device independent, but if all you're doing is web work, then it makes sense to have Monitor RGB as your working space.

Otherwise, the general recommendation is to convert to sRGB for images intended for the web.

If you are working in something like Adobe RGB, then it might make more sense to create a soft-proofing entry that uses sRGB as the target space and leave "preserve color numbers" unchecked.
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