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08/15/2007 12:37:44 PM · #26 |
Well, I earn a side income designing books, and we publish books, though not photo books, and *I* know how much work is involved, Chinpaca. If they are being published in a high-resolution, large, glossy format, the $69.95 sounds reasonable. No complaints from me.
R.
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08/15/2007 12:53:34 PM · #27 |
pfft
Message edited by author 2007-08-15 12:54:21. |
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08/15/2007 01:18:45 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by chinpaca:
Yah, a little suprising to see the hostility. This is not being marketed at all. Go back and read some of my recent threads. You'll see how this was born. You act like I'm exploiting DPCers and you don't even know me. The business I do is personal publishing, where people write their life story, or other personal projects, and order 1 or 2 copies. I also make Life Books for the Social Services Foster Care in my county. The book will cost $69.95+tax if we go with the photo journal. Depending on how many orders there are, I can maybe get it for cheaper. And when I ask permission from the photographer, I ask permission for the use of the picture, with full credits given. I haven't tried to sell them anything.
Have you ever published a book? Do you have any idea of the time it takes to gather the text, resize pictures if necccessary, then design each page for flow, continuity, balance, choose accompanying colors, backgrounds, etc? Criminootin! This is about fun, for US, DPCers who love DPC, and the artists that inspire and teach us so much. If you have a problem with that, go find another parade to rain on.
Ok, now I'm done venting. Let's get on with the fun! :)
Chinpaca |
you personally pm'd me in the past and asked if you could use my wedding images as a sample on your website. Not to sell the book of images to the public, but to show the public what a wedding book can look like.
I was simply wondering if you would be doing that with the images you collect for the DPC book.
More power to you for putting the work into it and making a profit. I just wanted everyone to be informed if in fact their images would end up on your website as samples of what a book can look like. I never assumed you would offer it as a book to be sold to the public at large. But, I did wonder if everyone's images would be used to market your product.
Im not sure why that is considered hostile. I was being protective of DPC..if anything.
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08/15/2007 05:45:14 PM · #29 |
Wow -
Super-honored. Thanks. I'm pretty good at getting 4th place ;P
Originally posted by richard42:
this has got to be in, i love it! |
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08/15/2007 06:35:13 PM · #30 |
I have received a PM that my image has been selected for the best of book. I would like to publicly decline the right for my image to be used.
I would also like people to be informed about the choices they make. I dont come out of hiding very often, but after more research, I have formed the following argument...
1) poor quality albums. The talent and beauty of the best of the best dpc entries deserve high end, high quality presentation. Not something that looks cheaper than what we can order on shutterfly. After looking at the book publisher website, I do not see how this book can be worth $70. Do you even pay that much in a book store? How many pages will this book have in it for $70..what is the print quality? The printing process? You are using resized images from the web? WHAT???
2) Exactly what is this publishing company? The business model reminds me of a pyramid scheme. You have to purchase a membership and then purchase points to create a book. The website does not give info on the price of points or an ultimate price on the cost of books. In order to do this, you must become a member through a representative. They also encourage you to become your very own representative and sell this book publishing gimmick to others. I imagine if you want to succeed, you will need to attend a lot of trade shows etc...with sample books. I cant even find specs on the website about paper quality. It is one thing to have to prove your a professional photographer in order to use certain labs and album companies. Your company is not of professional quality..at all.
3) blanket statement of giving the right to have the image printed in your book and the photographer receives credit. Alright, now you have the right to make sample books for trade shows.
4) Argument that you deserve to be paid for your design time. Yes, this could be true...BUT...you would probably design an album for your own use at a trade show anyway. And then you get to make money off of the photographers that buy the book for an over inflated price. If we can go to shutterfly and buy a book for $20 to $50 RETAIL to consumers. What exactly IS your cost? Seems like a heap of profit to me if you get enough orders...plus the fact that your books will be soooo much better looking with great photography printed within. You could probably distract potential book buyers and future representatives from the books actual lack of quality in materials by dazzling them with pretty images.
5) you are not a very active member of the site. I find it hard to believe you are doing this for the warm fuzzy feelings. This is a community of well meaning people who are open and willing to help each other learn. And yes, I do feel that you are trying to exploit them. I am well aware of how the world turns by now.
6) Sorry fellow DPC peeps...I am not trying to rain on your parade..at all. I just whole heartedly feel there is such a better way to do this. A way that will make you the photographer look better as well!
I think the SC could hire out the book project, handle it themselves or get fellow dpc'ers to donate their time to create a yearly best of book of professional quality, with image details, photographer credits etc. Make the book available for purchase to the public at large. Cover your cost for design time, materials etc and then donate any profit to a different cause each year. Perhaps people can vote on the charity to be used each year. Something like this needs to be handled by people that we can all trust. It should be a site project...a site celebration..and even a way to do a little good in the world while getting more exposure for the photographers. For a book like this, I would certainly pay. I would be willing to have my images in it, i would be willing to pay a high end price and i would feel good about doing it. No selfish motives involved. Something that is created with a desire to help not only this community, but to better the world in whatever teeny tiny ripples we can manage to spread by beautiful works of art and charitable contributions.
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08/15/2007 07:00:27 PM · #31 |
I just read this thread. I was wondering from the get what the purpose was & what giving permission meant. I have to say, that so far none of this has been elabourated.
Here are my thoughts & I hope folks take it int he spirit it is intented:
Publishing the Best of for fun, ok. Why not suggest that DPC do this and folks can vote on the Best of.
The fact is, as I see it, grigrgirl is right. No one really knows anyone on this site (unless a member is your spouse, friend, etc...) so what guarantees do you give folks?
I think, your your sake and DPC, you might want to clarify with excruciating specificity, what exactly you are asking in using their images and what they are getting & giving up.
I think it is unfair to say that folks are being hostile. It's being smart and protecting oneself & others on the site. In this world, folks do tend to get dooped.
All said, just want to say that I am not assuming anything about anyone or throwing around accusations of intent. All I am saying is if you do intend to move forward, could you please post more on the specifics of what you need from fotogs in order to do this book? This means what, when & where the fotos will be used & how and all the others things that I might be missing that entails with giving permission up for a foto.
Cheers!
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08/15/2007 08:12:19 PM · #32 |
Wow..... I remember one of the original threads about this and I think it all started out with this user wanting to create this one printed book for his own coffee table and nothing else. Then as other people chimed in there was interest from some that if their photo was one chosen and and they agreed to let it in then they might want one for their own coffee table. At least that's what I remember the thread being about and I even went so far as to send an admin message to suggest to Langdon that something like this be done as an annual thing but never heard back about it and forgot. Then this thread came along and now all the controversy. It looks like grigrigirl has looked into it a bit more and maybe there are some concerns and I'm all wrong about how I understood this to be but I don't think this project was ever intended to make money. It was only supposed to be about some of DPC's best (with permissions and credits) in a book that would be made available to DPCers only.
Chinpaca? |
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08/15/2007 08:57:00 PM · #33 |
Some info on "Heritage Makers"...
from wiki...
here...
and here.
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08/15/2007 09:36:22 PM · #34 |
I rest my case. However, she wasnt lying about only wanting it for her coffee table since the sales meetings are gathered around the coffee table. |
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08/16/2007 12:09:33 AM · #35 |
Thanks Sheryll,
and grigrigirl, holy cow, cool down. You've obviously never seen a book published in Heritage Makers, and if you had any idea of what the purpose was, you'd just go on your merry way, because it's purpose is to strenghten families through preserving their heritage.
The albums are professionally published, library stitch bound, and come with an heirloom guarantee. A lifetime account (membership), and all of your projects are archived. Unlimited high resolution photo storage, and a trained consultant to help you not only understand how to use the studio, but even how to extract the powerful stories that are behind the photos. You can't get a book from asuka for nearly the same price, and it is the equal. This is a typical reponse from someone who does not want people to be able to publish their own books.
Once again, NO ONE IS BUYING THIS BOOK OUTSIDE OF DPC MEMBERS. Nothing would be on any website. If you are nominated (by other DPCers) to be in the book, and decide to participate, that will all be listed in the "permission slip/contract" The other book that I published didn't have DPC photos in it, because it was a collection of my favorite emails. I didn't have time to get permission from any of the "Where's Waldo?", and just as grigrigril didn't mention, I did not use her photo, which I asked permission for, because I didn't get permission. I found that the best books need to be authentic, and I don't have much to do with weddings, so I didn't need anything like that after all. SO, my sample books, which I show my clients, are of my own.
Comission is 20%. If you are familiar with publishing, then you know that book stores are ordering in the thousands and millions of copies, and so that accounts for the lower prices on books.....69.95 for a 1 off is awesome. I've stated my purpose. If you have legitimate questions or concerns, please post them in the thread. If you just want to attack, take a kick boxing class or something.
On my end, this book will be enjoyed by my family, who are usually sitting around my computer chair when I get the challenge updates. It will join Calvin and Hobbes, The Far Side, National Geographic Magazine, and books filled with our own home brew. For me, it will be joining "The Greats".
Chinpaca
Message edited by author 2007-08-16 00:19:10. |
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08/16/2007 01:02:05 AM · #36 |
Speaking as a photographer, I am more than a little concerned that it took you until the 35th post in the thread to admit that you are making money on this.
I would hope and expect that, when asking permission of the various photographers for free use of their photographs, that you will be more up-front about your financial interest in this project.
~Terry
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08/16/2007 01:06:13 AM · #37 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Speaking as a photographer, I am more than a little concerned that it took you until the 35th post in the thread to admit that you are making money on this.
I would hope and expect that, when asking permission of the various photographers for free use of their photographs, that you will be more up-front about your financial interest in this project.
~Terry |
I agree & this is what I was specifically asking for in an earlier post.
Chinpaca, for everyone's sake, please, please post right HERE in this thread you started, your FULL intent and ALL that you will ask for of fotogs including what they will GAIN and GIVE UP.
It's only fair. Despite your intentions, it seems that the lure of having one's picure published in a book may sway some folks to do something they otherwise would not. The "you decide if you want to do it" is not enough. Please be FULLY UPFRONT to safeguard yourself & others.
Thanks.
P.S. Chinpaca, you did invite folks in your original post to express issues as you asked if there were any. Please stang by it and honour the issues people share without characterising posts as hostile just because questions are being asked.
Message edited by author 2007-08-16 01:23:13.
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08/16/2007 06:35:18 AM · #38 |
I suggest we try and create this book through DPC as grigrigirl suggested.
I would feel much better that it was in the hands of DPCers, and maybe profits could go to a selected charity.
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08/16/2007 07:01:27 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by grigrigirl:
I think the SC could hire out the book project, handle it themselves or get fellow dpc'ers to donate their time to create a yearly best of book of professional quality, with image details, photographer credits etc. Make the book available for purchase to the public at large. Cover your cost for design time, materials etc and then donate any profit to a different cause each year. Perhaps people can vote on the charity to be used each year. Something like this needs to be handled by people that we can all trust. It should be a site project...a site celebration..and even a way to do a little good in the world while getting more exposure for the photographers. For a book like this, I would certainly pay. I would be willing to have my images in it, i would be willing to pay a high end price and i would feel good about doing it. No selfish motives involved. Something that is created with a desire to help not only this community, but to better the world in whatever teeny tiny ripples we can manage to spread by beautiful works of art and charitable contributions. |
I think this is a brilliant idea and would support it 100%.
There is plenty of talent and expertise within this site to do this and we should support the site for something like this.
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08/16/2007 07:22:43 AM · #40 |
I am with  AlexSaberi and Keegbow in supporting  GriGriGirl's idea. |
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08/16/2007 07:31:42 AM · #41 |
I can imagine that creating such a book is a huge undertaking which could last many months. Therefore it is not unreasonable to expect some sort of payment for that time and energy spent on it. What the SC (or a sub-group of them) could do is to agree on a fixed payment amount up front for the creator, plus a small cut of the profits perhaps. The profits thereafter could go to a charity.
I for one would like a copy of this book, but since I do not live in the USA, what are the chances unless it is marketed through Amazon or the like. Network marketing (like Tupperware do) is fine but is no good for a global market. I do know that Amazon take a large cut of the sale price per copy though...
So I think you should aim big with this project but everyone must know up front who gets what, and all financials should be transparently monitored by the SC. Once the proposal is drawn up, the SC can decide to go ahead or not. Time spent by the SC on this should also be budgeted for as this might be substantial too. |
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08/16/2007 12:07:55 PM · #42 |
The reason it took me until the 35th post is because as well as taking care of 4 children under the age of 12, being a heritage consultant, and helping with our vintage guitar business, I am the handy man around here too. I was outside building a doghouse, and answered posts on breaks. I was waiting until one of the participants inquired about my commission before I posted it.
I am more than willing to answer or handle any concerns and have done so. However, there is a difference between asking a question in a respectful manner as most have, and using slash and burn tactics on someones character. That is uncalled for and should have no place on this site.
IF SC wants to get with me to determine, or to tell me what would be approved guidelines for doing something like this, regarding profit caps, donating a required percentage, etc., I would be more than happy to work with them or comply. If they decide that they need to get involved, then I will cooperate fully. If not, I will post the practicum as soon as I get it together.
Club Juggle, this came about with no financial interest of my own, and so it was not at the forefront. It was simply something that I have the capability of doing, and seemed like it would be fun. The odds that anything big would come of this are small. I never anticipated more than a small handful wanting a copy.
With all due respect AlexSaberi, this is in the hands of DPCers. We haven't even gotten into the details of the project yet, and I feel it's being shot down before it even has a chance to develope. This book will take the shape of the people who want it, with the photographers being protected and celebrated.
I will go over all of the posts later tonight and address any concerns I may have missed.
Chinpaca
Message edited by author 2007-08-16 12:31:03. |
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08/16/2007 12:31:01 PM · #43 |
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08/16/2007 12:51:06 PM · #44 |
| Thanks to grigrigirl and others for being on the ball. My own alarm bells went off. And kudos to Rooster for "excruciating specificity." And chinpaca, you should know how sensitive even amateur photographers are to venues for their work and that it is your project not your own personality even as superwoman that is under scrutiny. |
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08/16/2007 01:46:36 PM · #45 |
| I was very flattered to received a pm, and I'm watching this thread with interest. Now where did I put the popcorn ?? |
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08/16/2007 02:52:13 PM · #46 |
Don't read too much into that... I'm actually a semi-active Wikipedian and made the AfD nomination based mainly on Wikipedia article inclusion standards (notability, primarily). It's a borderline case, and the discussion seems to be leaning toward inclusion.
~Terry
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08/16/2007 02:59:07 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Don't read too much into that... I'm actually a semi-active Wikipedian |
Did you date fotoman and curse him ?
I'm confused now. 4th popular picture on the site and I didn't get asked :( //picture.com/ never call me either :(
Message edited by author 2007-08-16 15:01:22. |
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08/16/2007 02:59:48 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Don't read too much into that... I'm actually a semi-active Wikipedian and made the AfD nomination based mainly on Wikipedia article inclusion standards (notability, primarily). It's a borderline case, and the discussion seems to be leaning toward inclusion.
~Terry |
No worries...I'm not. I use Wikipedia on a rare occasion and don't know much about all of the details/work that goes into it. Found the banter about keep/delete interesting, that's all. :) |
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08/16/2007 02:59:58 PM · #49 |
I just love that it got voted for Deletion by  clubjuggle
*whoops, already addressed.
Message edited by author 2007-08-16 15:00:40. |
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08/16/2007 03:29:41 PM · #50 |
me = lost
insert moron-proof relevance to topic here please -------> |
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