What Do You Guys Think? - DPChallenge Forums

08/16/2007 11:57:49 AM · #26

could potentially tell us that as much as we think that we "know" what is good and what isn't, it only makes it "good or bad" according to both personal tastes and criteria that we've set up in DPC.

no sh1t. Hence why my stuff never wins ;)

08/16/2007 12:02:11 PM · #27

Let me ask here, how many fellow DPCers reading this thread also participate in other challenges in other sites or, perhaps, have showcased work in other venues?

I'd be interested in hearing if you have tried other arenas for your work, what differences you may be finding in terms of success (meaning, voter/editorial approval)?

Please don't name the sources as I don't want other sites advertised in here. That wouldn't at all be fair to DPC and the hard work they put into this site. Just a point of interest in a very general way. :)

Message edited by author 2007-08-16 12:04:18.

Nikon AF-S DX NIKKOR 18-200mm f/3.5-5.6G ED VR II

08/16/2007 12:02:52 PM · #28

Originally posted by Tez:

LOL!!!!!!!!!!!! Great answer!!! :))

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

08/16/2007 12:05:50 PM · #29

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

My point here is that what fares well in DPC voting isn't representative of the value of any photographer's work being either good nor, bad. It's simply representative of what DPC voters have become used to and are looking for.

...

Just because their work doesn't do well in voting DPC, or just because it does do well in DPC, doesn't truly pin it as worthless or worthy in other venues.

...

That, and that alone was the point I was trying to make in this thread....both to myself as well as others who have expressed similar feelings to me in private conversations.

Very valid point. Frequently you read success stories in the forums on photos that have been used for advertising, won an award somewhere, etc...yet those same images at times have not been awarded top honors here at DPC.

Plug for a couple of my own personal examples. :)

Ribbons on 5 out of 6. :-)
Regional Photography Show ~ Results

swankFoto

Fujifilm X-E1

08/16/2007 12:12:11 PM · #30

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Perhaps, there is merit there that we've yet come to recognize! Perhaps, we lack the skills to make such a judgement.

You've summed up probably my favorite quote by a photographer (which is my signature).

"The eye should learn to listen before it looks"
- Robert Frank

Thanks for starting this discussion ;)

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Pentax DA 18-135mm F3.5-5.6ED AL [IF] WR DC

08/16/2007 12:27:05 PM · #31

This is probably a better example

Great Photographers on the Internet

If you want to shoot for mass appeal (which is what the dpc popularity contest is all about) it is unlikely you'll stumble upon a successful different style. People tend to like what they know.

There's also an entirely different discussion to be had about 'greatest hits' one shot images, vs sets of images that work well together. I have a portrait project I've been working on which hangs together as a set of photos. If you look at them all together, the colour treatment and processing is
consistent across the set. You can probably get the idea that I either know what
I'm doing or at least it has some intent behind it.

Yet each image on its own you'd look at and say 'the white balance is off' or its
'overexposed' or something.

These sorts of fashion images are typically part of a larger spread of images or a
campaign. Taken in isolation the lack of context can change how the image is viewed quite substantially.

tnun

Ricoh GR III

08/16/2007 12:31:33 PM · #32

Golly gee. I thought we were going to discuss the photo, in which I exercised myself to find deep dark political allusions and social commentary. (Not that fashion photography isn't social evidence).

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

08/16/2007 12:44:01 PM · #33

Originally posted by Gordon:

... These sorts of fashion images are typically part of a larger spread of images or a
campaign. Taken in isolation the lack of context can change how the image is viewed quite substantially.

Thank you. :)

ragamuffingirl

Sony Alpha NEX-5N

Canon EF 28-135mm f/3.5-5.6 IS USM

08/16/2007 12:55:47 PM · #34

I thought I recognized that picture.

justamistere

Nikon D3s

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 17-55mm f/2.8G IF-ED

08/16/2007 01:18:22 PM · #35

I saw some improvements to be made to this photo, yet saw some potential in this setup.
I read recently that for Top Entertainers ( Movie stars ), the Contractor is of the highest importance.
Some salesman can sell anything, to somebody at least.

There are many times, some Behind-the-scenes, unknown facts.
Questions?
A) Was this the top 50% one of the group in the magazine or just a filler?
B) Is this the norm for that photography business or just a one time fluke?
C) Was there some contractual requirement to accept a certain number from them?
D) Does the photography business, themselves, think it's one of their best?

1) Yes, this "voting" was taken out of context, since there wasn't a Category or Theme. That attributes to some low voting.

For certain themes it does have some appeal.
To a paid customers' request it definitely has appeal.
There always has been some more avante garde style appeal in Fashion and the Arts (Visual & Musical).

2) Once your famous, you can pull off, almost anything, and get high acclaim and cash for it.

Lastly, dpc is a good proving ground for improving your skills, among other things.
It is just one place, it's not the one stop to get a well-rounded photography education.
This is the internet, many photos do show more detail on printed media.

Does Good (Top 10 votes) mean you can sell it too, or visa-versa, No.
Selling is a different story.

Sheryll

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

08/16/2007 01:30:03 PM · #36

I posted a comment on the shot after reading only the first couple of posts in this thread....... Then I read through some more of the posts and well.... wow I guess. I try to improve all the time and take a lot of shots but I've sort of separated my photography into to different thought processes. There are some shots that I take just specifically going for what dpc'rs would like but then there are others that I just take because I want to or because of the moment or whatever and every now and then some of the latter are used in challenges. A lot of what I've learned on this site has brought my non-dpc photography skills up as well imo but there is a lot of my non-dpc stuff that I know wouldn't hold up here but are still great shots in my mind simply because of my knowledge of the subject or the moment captured.

When I vote I do it per photo basis. Look at my comment on the OP shot to see my thought process.

This is a great thread and definately puts things into better perspective for me.

Message edited by author 2007-08-16 13:32:23.

violinist123

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 24-70mm f/2.8L USM

08/16/2007 02:30:58 PM · #37

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by routerguy666:
Is this another 'really this was taken by Super Photographer X' thing?

Answer: yes.

Even by their own standards this is a pretty lousy shot, but they got paid for it and no one is paying me to take pictures of anorexic people in front of tv's so wht do I know?

LOL Router......but how do you know that by their own standards this is a pretty lousy shot? Perhaps, there is merit there that we've yet come to recognize! Perhaps, we lack the skills to make such a judgement.

Just a thought. :)

No one lacks skills to make a judgment. If you can see and type, you have all the skills required.

Whose judgment you find more meaningful is an entirely different discussion. I find that people tend to gravitate towards judgments that are similar to their own or reflect some sort of aesthetic which they themselves adhere to. Witness the blurry pedagogues thread or whatever it is called.

Anyway, when I said 'by their own standards' I wasn't clear. I went and looked at their online galleries and was comparing this shot to the rest of their work. While it may shine when taken in context, it pales when held against everything else I saw.

08/16/2007 03:55:38 PM · #38

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
My point here is that what fares well in DPC voting isn't representative of the value of any photographer's work being either good nor, bad. It's simply representative of what DPC voters have become used to and are looking for.

...

Just because their work doesn't do well in voting DPC, or just because it does do well in DPC, doesn't truly pin it as worthless or worthy in other venues.

...

That, and that alone was the point I was trying to make in this thread....both to myself as well as others who have expressed similar feelings to me in private conversations.

Very valid point. Frequently you read success stories in the forums on photos that have been used for advertising, won an award somewhere, etc...yet those same images at times have not been awarded top honors here at DPC.

Plug for a couple of my own personal examples. :)

Ribbons on 5 out of 6. :-)
Regional Photography Show ~ Results

I'm sure that there are MANY very talented photographers in here who have yet to recognize that they do, in fact, have great talent, simply because their scores in here and other sites like it are low!

A lot of hobbiest/amateur photographers may not recognize that their work has a lot of value and merit, simply because their scores in here and the comments are quite derrogatory.

Wouldn't it be a shame for them to go "unnoticed" and "unappreciated" and not giving their work the fair chance that it deserves, simply because we are set on a certain pattern/style and reflect that in our votes? :)

08/16/2007 04:06:05 PM · #39

Originally posted by Gordon:

Very true, Gordon and an extremely valid and helpful point for all of us to take into consideration as well!

I feel that there are places and context for everything. Certainly, some shots are most effective solitarily, while others are most effective as a group. "Context" is applicable in whichever manner it has the greatest effect. It's much akin to a picture puzzle. The pieces in and of themselves hold not much context however, put them all together and the context becomes clear. The same holds true of every creative/artistic field.

This very point is also very valid to us, as photographers here. A single shot, isolated, may very well be ripped apart during voting, but should that photographer be able to put a number of such shots together, they'd have perhaps, a true work of art! But, discourage that photographer because it doesn't fit a certain criteria, created by voters, looking for a certain style and that photographer could be stunted in his/her work completely, never to get beyond that particular "look".

08/16/2007 04:08:57 PM · #40

Originally posted by tnun:

Golly gee. I thought we were going to discuss the photo, in which I exercised myself to find deep dark political allusions and social commentary. (Not that fashion photography isn't social evidence).

LOL....hey, perhaps, there WAS a "political stance/message/context" behind the photographer's vision in this shot! I'm up for discussion on that possibility!!! :) IF that is the case, then perhaps, putting that "context" to it, might improve it's "score" in here! *grin*

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

08/16/2007 04:09:15 PM · #41

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

This very point is also very valid to us, as photographers here. A single shot, isolated, may very well be ripped apart during voting, but should that photographer be able to put a number of such shots together, they'd have perhaps, a true work of art! But, discourage that photographer because it doesn't fit a certain criteria, created by voters, looking for a certain style and that photographer could be stunted in his/her work completely, never to get beyond that particular "look".

I suspect if you spend all of your creative time trying to look for external validation, that you are unlikely to do anything particularly creative anyway.

I don't think it would be a particularly good thing for example to only ever shoot for contests, here or otherwise.

08/16/2007 04:10:22 PM · #42

Originally posted by ragamuffingirl:

I thought I recognized that picture.

LOL...when I first posted it, I was afraid of that happening as it would bias the "honesty" in comments! :)

Canon EF 100mm f/2.8 USM Macro

08/16/2007 04:19:43 PM · #43

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

Originally posted by routerguy666:

Originally posted by routerguy666:
Is this another 'really this was taken by Super Photographer X' thing?

Answer: yes.

Even by their own standards this is a pretty lousy shot, but they got paid for it and no one is paying me to take pictures of anorexic people in front of tv's so wht do I know?

LOL Router......but how do you know that by their own standards this is a pretty lousy shot? Perhaps, there is merit there that we've yet come to recognize! Perhaps, we lack the skills to make such a judgement.

Just a thought. :)

No one lacks skills to make a judgment. If you can see and type, you have all the skills required.

Whose judgment you find more meaningful is an entirely different discussion. I find that people tend to gravitate towards judgments that are similar to their own or reflect some sort of aesthetic which they themselves adhere to. Witness the blurry pedagogues thread or whatever it is called.

Anyway, when I said 'by their own standards' I wasn't clear. I went and looked at their online galleries and was comparing this shot to the rest of their work. While it may shine when taken in context, it pales when held against everything else I saw.

Router......of course everyone has the ability to make a "judgement" on ANYTHING in this world! You're absolutely right! I have absolutely NO argument or disagreement on that point whatsoever.

I equally agree with the idea that people tend to gravitate towards those who judge with similar criteria. And, THAT is my very point with this entire thread. We all, here at DPC have a tendency to look at photos through "the same eyes" so to speak because we have trained ourselves, not only as voters, but also as photographers to both look at a photo or take one, according to what we "know" or perceive other, fellow DPC members' tastes are or will be. We are, in effect, channeling both our own photo styles as well as our voting patterns according to that very criteria. That, in and of itself, "pegs" us into a certain shape/form. Square and Triangular pegs will not fit into DPC's "round holes".

My question was.....is that fair to any of us as both voters or photographers? Are we holding back each other as individual photographers and developing our own styles?

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

08/16/2007 04:22:58 PM · #44

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

A lot of hobbiest/amateur photographers may not recognize that their work has a lot of value and merit, simply because their scores in here and the comments are quite derrogatory.

Wouldn't it be a shame for them to go "unnoticed" and "unappreciated" and not giving their work the fair chance that it deserves, simply because we are set on a certain pattern/style and reflect that in our votes? :)

Your enthusiasm and sentiment has merit, although I seriously doubt that there is much of a chance to change voting habits here at DPC, and maybe they shouldn't change.

For the most part, the images that rise to the top here are worthy of praise and high scores. Even if they are simplistic and use a high dose of eye candy. From a technical standpoint the foundations of lighting, focus, exposure, etc...along with sometimes a fair amount of creativity are usually what allows the ribbon winners to get to the top of the heap.

The "hobbiest/amateur photographers" can learn from this in regards to mastering the basics. You can be as creative and OOB as you want, but if the technicals aren't there you usually aren't going to have much of a photograph.

With technical proficiency comes confidence. I think confidence, along with a strong desire, is the key for "hobbiest/amateur photographers" to reach out and test the waters in other venues outside of DPC.

Sure, getting low scores in challenges can be a heavy burden to some. Many won't get past it to set themselves free elsewhere. However, IMO, the ones that have the desire to LEARN and truly love photography will see past the low scores, and improve their skills by utilizing several tools (forums, friends, reading, practice, etc...).

DPChallenge can be a very good place for learning for those that seek it. To try and change the culture of DPC at this point in time is most likely a fruitless endeavor, and quite honestly, a task that's not really needed. :)

Spork99

OM System OM-1

08/16/2007 04:26:09 PM · #45

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
This very point is also very valid to us, as photographers here. A single shot, isolated, may very well be ripped apart during voting, but should that photographer be able to put a number of such shots together, they'd have perhaps, a true work of art! But, discourage that photographer because it doesn't fit a certain criteria, created by voters, looking for a certain style and that photographer could be stunted in his/her work completely, never to get beyond that particular "look".

I suspect if you spend all of your creative time trying to look for external validation, that you are unlikely to do anything particularly creative anyway.

I don't think it would be a particularly good thing for example to only ever shoot for contests, here or otherwise.

Rather than say it myself, I'll just agree with Gordon.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

08/16/2007 04:27:23 PM · #46

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

My question was.....is that fair to any of us as both voters or photographers? Are we holding back each other as individual photographers and developing our own styles?

If DPC is the alpha and omega of your photographic world, then yes, that would be very true.

There's also a particular aesthetic that plays well backlit on a 4"x6" view (such as a CRT/LCD at 640x480) compared to printed in a magazine, or framed on a wall, or printed on a billboard.

Something that works well small may not work well large and vice-versa.

That's just one aspect. The motivations and predilections of the voter pool is another.

I wouldn't suggest trying to change here, but I would suggest opening up to the world of photography now, past and future if this is your only view. (not to you specifically but users in general)

Fujifilm XF 55-200mm f/3.5-4.8 R LM OIS

08/16/2007 04:38:12 PM · #47

Originally posted by justamistere:

Just.....you've also made some points here that are well worth discussing (thus, the point of this thread :))

I'm afraid that I cannot answer all of the questions that you've posed in your post, but I can tell you that this photo was not a "filler photo". It was part of an entire spread on fashion done by several different photographers. Each photographer had several different shots as part of that section on fashion. So, in effect, it would have been considered "top 50%" if I'm understanding your meaning behind that point correctly.

Routerguy has correctly pointed out that this one particular shot was NOT one of their best in my point of view. However, their style is quite unique in and of itself. Obviously, that style both appeals and sells.

The fact that you've mentioned that this photo was voted on in this thread as harshly as it was because it had no title or context by which to judge it, may also be saying something that we may also need to look at within ourselves as well. Have we become far too accustomed to looking at photos with a context and title spelled out for us? Has the idea that we have a certain challenge and title when voting "tainted" our ability to look at, judge and appreciate photographic works of art in and of itself and find our own appreciation/context/meaning within it?

ursula

Fujifilm X-T2

08/16/2007 04:42:02 PM · #48

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:

My question was.....is that fair to any of us as both voters or photographers? Are we holding back each other as individual photographers and developing our own styles?

Is it fair? Who cares.

Is it holding us back as individuals? My favourite quote for today, "We squander our personalities in orgies of coexistence." (from Fernando Pessoa's, "The Book of Disquiet")

One way to look at it at least. :)

08/16/2007 04:56:56 PM · #49

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by PhotoInterest:
A lot of hobbiest/amateur photographers may not recognize that their work has a lot of value and merit, simply because their scores in here and the comments are quite derrogatory.

Wouldn't it be a shame for them to go "unnoticed" and "unappreciated" and not giving their work the fair chance that it deserves, simply because we are set on a certain pattern/style and reflect that in our votes? :)

Your enthusiasm and sentiment has merit, although I seriously doubt that there is much of a chance to change voting habits here at DPC, and maybe they shouldn't change.

For the most part, the images that rise to the top here are worthy of praise and high scores. Even if they are simplistic and use a high dose of eye candy. From a technical standpoint the foundations of lighting, focus, exposure, etc...along with sometimes a fair amount of creativity are usually what allows the ribbon winners to get to the top of the heap.

The "hobbiest/amateur photographers" can learn from this in regards to mastering the basics. You can be as creative and OOB as you want, but if the technicals aren't there you usually aren't going to have much of a photograph.

With technical proficiency comes confidence. I think confidence, along with a strong desire, is the key for "hobbiest/amateur photographers" to reach out and test the waters in other venues outside of DPC.

Sure, getting low scores in challenges can be a heavy burden to some. Many won't get past it to set themselves free elsewhere. However, IMO, the ones that have the desire to LEARN and truly love photography will see past the low scores, and improve their skills by utilizing several tools (forums, friends, reading, practice, etc...).

DPChallenge can be a very good place for learning for those that seek it. To try and change the culture of DPC at this point in time is most likely a fruitless endeavor, and quite honestly, a task that's not really needed. :)

Glad.....very valid points! I was not out to change DPC by this thread. I was raising a point for discussion. It most certainly IS a place (as both you and Just have pointed out very well :)) to, at the least, learn technical skills. As you've also pointed out, that's what drives the top scorers to the top in here, no doubt and no argument at all there from me.

Of course "technicals" are the basis for a good photo and without them, there leaves a lot to be desired in any photo. However, just as equally valid, is the point that without the OOB as well, it can get rather "boring". Technicals in and of themselves, are also not enough. Yet, there appears to be such a "focus" (pun intended) on technicals in here, that it almost "deters" the "creativity" that honestly and truly can make a shot worthy of looking at.

My point here is that when we concentrate more heavily on certain aspects such as the technical realm, we are taking away the other aspects that truly DO create a "great photo". We, in effect, "stunt" ourselves and others. Thus, my posting the "Ballroom Blitz" shot earlier on in this thread. People loved its creativity, but hesitated to vote it higher because it lacked the same "technical brilliance" that others had.

The one point that I'd also like to make is that in concentrating on the technical aspect of a photo so heavily and pushing aside the "creative" aspect, we are thereby, somewhat pushing aside the works of those who may not have the equipment that some have in order to achieve the same technical quality. We thereby, discourage those who don't.

Let's not forget the OOB's or the creative shots! They are worthy of an equal vote on THOSE merits/aspects! THAT is what I'd like to see changed!

I agree though, I rather doubt that I will be able to change that single handedly. It will take an entire membership, through voting, to ease up on the "technicals" and also take into consideration, "the creative"! I, personally, have been doing that in my voting over the past few months. If it emotes something from me, like a smile, or a laugh or a deep thought of one kind or another....just some type of emotion, as long as it's got a decent technical quality to it, I will vote it higher than a shot whose technical aspect is perfect but lacks in any real creativity! :)

Anyone else doing the same?

Message edited by author 2007-08-16 17:06:57.