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08/09/2007 07:06:07 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Man you took this awful far. You are taking me entirely too seriously. My point, that you obviously missed, is that it is very much an art as painting is an art. It is the act of creation. You think I am insulting painters or their craft think again. |
Humm.
anyway lets leave this topic, this is killing the main discussion here. |
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08/09/2007 07:10:36 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The good news is mileskea and everybody else had a say in who won. If you didn't bother to vote, then what are you doing bitching about the winners? If you did vote and gave it a 1, good for you. You'll get your man another day. If you voted, and gave it a 4 when you thought it didn't meet the challenge, why did you do that? If you voted and gave it a 10 because you thought it was awesome. That's great. At the end of the day, most people agreed with you. |
I'm not bitching, Doc. I am, howvever, quite surprised by the community's apparent swing from nitpicking the challenge description (which I hate bitterly) to ignoring it completely (which I hate bitterly). It's less about voting in one single challenge than it is about disliking the shift in the train of thought of the community as a whole over many challenges. It's shocking to me that there isn't more of an even distribution between the two camps.
Speaking for myself, I was excited to find this site last year because it seemed to be the best of everything - a themed challenge (and the key word was challenge) with which I could push the boundaries of my comfort zone, the opportunity to learn more about the technical aspects of the sport, and honest feedback instead of pandering to everyone's ego. I've not been voting or submitting lately since I've been busy with real life, but I check the forums in my downtime at work. As I see more and more of a trend toward this kind of thing, along with a growing culture of fear when it comes to critical feedback, I'm increasingly disenchanted by the whole thing and don't find myself missing the update button. If I enter a good shot that meets the challenge that gets next to nothing in the way of comments and it gets blown out of the water by a shoehorn that doesn't even pretend to try, then where's the incentive to stay? We're becoming a site of panderers who treat every challenge like a free study. Where's the challenge in that?
There used to be more of a balance between theme and technical merit. There used to be critical discussion. The technically excellent but DNMC hummingbird is just the latest symbol of this disappointing trend. It's more than one missed vote.
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08/09/2007 07:34:38 PM · #103 |
Just because someone didn't vote on a challenge doesn't in any way lessen their opinion about what has happened than the opinion of someone who did.
The issue goes far beyond this one challenge.
Why have topics at all if they're just going to be ignored. |
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08/09/2007 09:28:01 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
The technically excellent but DNMC hummingbird is just the latest symbol of this disappointing trend. It's more than one missed vote. |
That's the technically excellent but DNMC in your view of the challenge hummingbird.
That's the joy of letting everyone vote on it. You've made the assumption that everyone who voted it high doesn't think it meets the challenge. Plenty of people obviously disagree with you about that one. As mentioned before, go and try and recreate it and see if it doesn't represent a triumphant picture to you after a few days of failing.
Message edited by author 2007-08-09 21:29:20. |
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08/09/2007 10:07:29 PM · #105 |
I am a fairly new member so I guess I am allowed to ask nieve questions. If a photo does not meet a challenge in my opinion what vote do I give it?
A 5 to me is an average shot, could be technically strong but average subject or be a strong subject with average execution. All other scores are variations on that. |
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08/09/2007 10:23:06 PM · #106 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by bmartuch:
My thought is:
If you worked as a photographer for a newspaper and your boss said, get a picture the shows "Triumph" for an article we're doing, would he/she be happy with that image? |
Great example Bob. Your thought got lost among the many postings here...I think it is quite related to the OP's original thought/question. |
How about if your newspaper was read almost exclusively by photographers who mostly understand the triumph involved in taking that shot ? |
With or without a caption? :P |
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08/09/2007 10:28:22 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
... As mentioned before, go and try and recreate it and see if it doesn't represent a triumphant picture to you after a few days of failing. |
If indeed such was the case, and people viewed difficulty of capture as one of the prime issues of consideration when meting out votes, then one would think that the capture of animals in the wild would by their very nature score higher than others... sadly this is not the case.
Let's face facts... the image in question is indeed a truly beautiful capture... and while triumph is indeed a factor... it's link to the challenge is questionable at best.
Ray
Message edited by author 2007-08-09 22:47:40. |
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08/09/2007 10:33:56 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
I'm not bitching, Doc. I am, howvever, quite surprised by the community's apparent swing from nitpicking the challenge description (which I hate bitterly) to ignoring it completely (which I hate bitterly). It's less about voting in one single challenge than it is about disliking the shift in the train of thought of the community as a whole over many challenges. It's shocking to me that there isn't more of an even distribution between the two camps. |
Here's the problem. The points on the spectrum you decide qualify as "nitpicking" and "ignoring" are not going to be the same as the next person. To you the spots seem complete reasonable and rational, but to someone else they may be complete crazy. You will never gain consensus on where these spots lie. That leaves gray zones and sometimes those gray zones win ribbons.
If I click "Challenge Archive" and look at the winners, I think the idea that we have suddenly become a site of "free studies" is not true. (and now that's my opinion). The hummingbird shot probably stretches the furthest, but it's one winner in 30-40 ribbons. To me that is just fine and I'd actually prefer we moved slightly in that direction (again, my opinion). You wouldn't believe the people I regularly talk to how we obsess about our entries and whether they will be thought of as DNMC. It's crazy and it's too much. (once again, my opinion)
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08/10/2007 01:27:52 AM · #109 |
Originally posted by codfish:
I am a fairly new member so I guess I am allowed to ask nieve questions. If a photo does not meet a challenge in my opinion what vote do I give it?
A 5 to me is an average shot, could be technically strong but average subject or be a strong subject with average execution. All other scores are variations on that. |
It's a very nebulous concept, this "not meeting the challenge". There is a tendency among people to say the "best" entries are the ones that most obviously meet the challenge, and many more subtle, but equally valid, responses to the challenges get downgraded. This leads, in general, to a sort of cookie-cutter approach to our challenges.
But there are many reasons why an image that does not, for you, seem to meet the challenge could actually be right on topic. For example, if the challenge were "Mourning" and yous aw a bunch of white-clad people in the picture, you might think that was not about mourning because you associate black with mourning, but in China white is the color of mourning.
I have trained myself to be much more receptive to alternative takes on the challenge topics. I assume that most, if not all, images are entered in good faith, and represent the photographer's honest approach tot he challenge topic. In the case of the hummingbird, remember that the challenge description was "Take a photo representing triumph or success." To the photographer, accomplishing this image represents a success. How can I argue with that?
Granted, IMO there are other images entered that better represent both triumph and success, and I preferred a number of images over this winning image, but the voters did not agree with me. So it goes. I don't see this image as representing a degradation of the site's adherence to challenge topics but rather, as Doc has said, a much-needed loosening up of what have been some pretty strict, nit-picking attitudes that (again IMO) are death to the creative or artistic impulses of our members.
So, to answer your question, I'd advise you to be very careful in determining whether, in your opinion, an image is DNMC. I'd advise you to do most of your rating based on photographic merit, and then bump up those images you feel really do a good, creative job of meeting the challenge and bump down a bit those you feel meet it only marginally. That's the way I do it, anyway.
R.
Message edited by author 2007-08-10 01:29:45.
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08/10/2007 10:58:11 AM · #110 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by Gordon:
... As mentioned before, go and try and recreate it and see if it doesn't represent a triumphant picture to you after a few days of failing. |
If indeed such was the case, and people viewed difficulty of capture as one of the prime issues of consideration when meting out votes, then one would think that the capture of animals in the wild would by their very nature score higher than others... sadly this is not the case. |
Not normally, but then normally the challenge isn't to represent triumph
Message edited by author 2007-08-10 10:58:22. |
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08/10/2007 10:59:27 AM · #111 |
Originally posted by mileskea:
The camera captures what is put in front of it and it is not capable of a 'lie'. The photographer does the rest. |
That's one way to view what a camera does. Mine doesn't do that very often. |
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08/10/2007 11:42:16 AM · #112 |
So what was this whole thread about? I just am not sure I see that one guy holding himself up on another guy's head represents triumph... :P
Bottom line is triumph was a tough challenge. Very cerebral.
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08/10/2007 12:58:55 PM · #113 |
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Originally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Then once in photoshop I have complete control of that image. To me it is very much like painting.
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He he he, I would say little bit like painting. Because the main difference between the painting and doing photoshop is, in painting you make the whole picture yourself bit by bit. While in photoshop you only adjust what is already there. If you make the picture pixel by pixel then might be like painting.
anyway I got what you wished to say. |
I would say very much like painting. |
Nope not even close.
This is photoshoped : 
(done from base image).
and this is painting : 
Done every bit by real colors on real board.
You see there is a difference in difficulty level. Making a realistic painting is many many times difficult than processing a photo in photoshop. Saying them equal is an insult to efforts a painter put into a painting. |
If you really want to do the comparison, consider that the painter paints either what they see in their mind, from a photo, or from a location (rarely).
A photographer has to travel around, recognize the shot is before them, choose what lens, shutter speed, f-shop etc will best bring their vision to life, then IF that works to their satisfaction they go back to the computer and try and enhance it further into what they felt when they first laid eyes upon the scene.
The process is very different, the goal is the same. Representing in "stop time" what you envisioned in "real time".
Does the fact that the process is different (just like painting is different from sculpting in process) make it less of an art form? I think not. |
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08/10/2007 01:51:34 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
So what was this whole thread about? I just am not sure I see that one guy holding himself up on another guy's head represents triumph... :P
Bottom line is triumph was a tough challenge. Very cerebral. |
Everyone is missing a big point: The challenge description asked us to make an image that represents "triumph or success" dammit. While many of the images are arguably marginal to the concept of triumph, most of them DO represent "success".
R.
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08/10/2007 01:54:33 PM · #115 |
| The winning shot has been DQ'd |
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08/10/2007 02:04:28 PM · #116 |
Originally posted by bmartuch:
The winning shot has been DQ'd |
Is that relevant to the DNMC controversy? I'm neither happy nor sad to see it go.
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08/10/2007 04:46:47 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by bmartuch:
The winning shot has been DQ'd |
Is that relevant to the DNMC controversy? I'm neither happy nor sad to see it go. |
No, just stating a fact. |
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08/10/2007 09:35:08 PM · #118 |
photoshop artist here for art doubters,//www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoxypapNwoUOriginally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Then once in photoshop I have complete control of that image. To me it is very much like painting.
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He he he, I would say little bit like painting. Because the main difference between the painting and doing photoshop is, in painting you make the whole picture yourself bit by bit. While in photoshop you only adjust what is already there. If you make the picture pixel by pixel then might be like painting.
anyway I got what you wished to say. |
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08/10/2007 09:43:01 PM · #119 |
Originally posted by jonnienye:
photoshop artist here for art doubters,//www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoxypapNwoUOriginally posted by zxaar:
Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
Then once in photoshop I have complete control of that image. To me it is very much like painting.
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He he he, I would say little bit like painting. Because the main difference between the painting and doing photoshop is, in painting you make the whole picture yourself bit by bit. While in photoshop you only adjust what is already there. If you make the picture pixel by pixel then might be like painting.
anyway I got what you wished to say. |
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THAT WAS F*&KING SICK!!!!!!!
The Cinematics tune was perfect too! |
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