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08/08/2007 05:02:53 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Gordon:
A poor shot doesn't 'meet the challenge' though, if you assume (somewhat obviously I'd have thought) that the basic notion every week is to take a good picture - that should be the entry level, much like having something vaguely to do with the particular challenge. |
I think all we'll end up doing here would be proving the fact that 'meeting the challenge' is going to remain too subjective to pin down closely, but I'll give it a go:
Compare this shot:
To Jeff's entry:
My subjective evaluation is that the second shot more clearly addresses the "spirit of the challenge" (whatever that is) than Jeff's. If those were the only two shots in the "triumph" challenge, what do you think would have happened? Would Jeff's shot have won? I say "yes," without question. A great shot will always do better than a poor shot (apologies to quigley). Even if the poor shot has a more directly identifiable connection to the challenge.
And, the voters are always right.
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08/08/2007 05:09:06 PM · #27 |
I'm usually against photos that DNMC.
After all what's a Challenge Topic for?
Well back when I was a newbie here I HAD TO LEARN THE HARD WAY.
Maybe it's just a starting point, to bring some order, to make it more interesting.
And NO, you can not "Shoehorn" just any old photo.
I posted the following on the Photo-Comments:
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That's not even "thinking outside the box",
"Shoe-horning", a super photo, Yes.
Some might say, "Gee, could have photographed a speeding train", all of our First-Steps taken on 2-Legs, are Personal Triumphs (boring). But comparatively, everyone knows hummingbirds are "Faster-and-More-Elusive".
IF I got a more partial Frontal-Closeup shot of a fast moving Cheetah or a Charging white Rhino, that may have come in 2nd-Place. A Cheetah catching it's prey in middair, that's a triumph for both.
"Triumph" Spitfire... Not.
I would not have given it a 10, If I thought-twice, then an 7-8.
But that's just ME, One-Voter. This is a political arena, as in real-life.
Message edited by author 2007-08-08 17:10:33. |
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08/08/2007 05:24:01 PM · #28 |
I'm a self-proclaimed DNMC Nazi much of the time, but...Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
"Description
Take a photo representing triumph or success." |
I felt it was shoehorned initially, but the key word to me here is "representing" - it does not say "depicting" - the title explains the representation and we take the submitter at their word (at least I normally do) and in this case, it was clearly a Triumph for Spizzer.
Also, techincally, the fact that he won the blue ribbon makes the challenge relevance self-fulfilling. ;-)
Congrats to Jeff and glad to hear he got more satisfaction from the other things he mentioned than from the ribbon. |
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08/08/2007 05:27:47 PM · #29 |
Ken
Subtle but very important distinction in the challenge description. Congrats to Jeff on a fabulous image and a much deserved win.
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
I'm a self-proclaimed DNMC Nazi much of the time, but...Originally posted by thegrandwazoo:
"Description
Take a photo representing triumph or success." |
I felt it was shoehorned initially, but the key word to me here is "representing" - it does not say "depicting" - the title explains the representation and we take the submitter at their word (at least I normally do) and in this case, it was clearly a Triumph for Spizzer.
Also, techincally, the fact that he won the blue ribbon makes the challenge relevance self-fulfilling. ;-)
Congrats to Jeff and glad to hear he got more satisfaction from the other things he mentioned than from the ribbon. |
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08/08/2007 05:29:39 PM · #30 |
I would just like to add my two penneth here. As a relative newcomer to the challenges I tend to score shots higher where they meet the challenge AND are well done. My thought process goes something like - Does the shot hit the challenge? And the if it does - is it a good shot technically? Mark accordingly.
The point of a challenge is to make you think and adjust your skills to meet the assignment.
I don't see the point of setting a challenge if at the end of the day actually meeting it doesn't matter.
And whilst we are sounding off about challenges can someone please explain to me how a flower shot can be used for ANY challenge? How can this be - I know the addage about the man with the hammer but come on - try and extend the envelope a little - Please.
I too didn't take part in the Triumph challenge and whilst I appreciate the beauty of the Jeffs shot I did mark it down purely because of the challenge criteria not being met in my opinion.
Anyway I'll stop griping now and start thinking about this weeks challenges. |
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08/08/2007 05:34:29 PM · #31 |
Originally posted by mileskea:
I too didn't take part in the Triumph challenge and whilst I appreciate the beauty of the Jeffs shot I did mark it down purely because of the challenge criteria not being met in my opinion.
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I'll just say once more there is a strong enough current for a picture to meet a challenge that a ribbon denotes de facto that it met the challenge in the majority of people's eyes.
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08/08/2007 05:42:30 PM · #32 |
Nah, sorry. I voted the winning shot a 5. In a Free Study, it would've been a 9 or 10 from me. But that's just me, not everyone.
So first, Jeff, congrats on a stunning shot!
As to the ribbon, you deserved it because voters said you did. I don't think that means the voters thought you met the challenge, because I think a hefty percentage pay little attention to the challenge when voting. But ultimately, it's the score that matters.
Regardless, I really appreciate you sharing your story. I can definitely understand how you felt fantastic after capturing it, and I can share that joy vicariously. :) In fact, I encourage you put it in the photo comments.
BTW, sometimes a less-than-perfect shot does well because it so nails the challenge:
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08/08/2007 05:44:23 PM · #33 |
I was nearly going to post these words myself before I saw this thread to rant.
"There seems to be very little emphasis on meeting the actual challenge and more on hey I have a good photo I post that. For example on the Triumph challenge the winner is an excellent photo no question about that, but does it really meet the challenge?"
I agree with this but at the same time, I remind myself that DPchallenge can not be taken to heart. Its a place to post your work, get critiqued, and share photos with other great talents. I get angry sometimes that I struggle to be creative enough for the challenge and then witness the blue ribbon go to someone whom in my opinion didn't meet the challenge at all!! BUT its about perception, voting, popularity, opinion... all things that cannot be measured. All you can do is post what you can and use the weekly assignments as ways to "climb out of the box" and to build an eclectic portfolio.
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08/08/2007 06:20:10 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Originally posted by mileskea:
I too didn't take part in the Triumph challenge and whilst I appreciate the beauty of the Jeffs shot I did mark it down purely because of the challenge criteria not being met in my opinion.
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I'll just say once more there is a strong enough current for a picture to meet a challenge that a ribbon denotes de facto that it met the challenge in the majority of people's eyes. |
I don't agree a democratic decision can still be wrong - just look at our present government - DNMC if ever I saw it.
I will repeat what I said with an analogy " Yes sir I know that you ordered a Whopper with cheese and fries but chef is really good with Tofu so enjoy"
I don't know Jeff personally but I do know that he is a very talented and skilled photographer. I just think he missed the mark with this challenge and it was his obvious technical ability that voters went for - not necessarily correctly within the terms of this challenge.
A challenge sets down the guidelines for the week. I don't hold with "take-a-picture-of-anything-add-the-challenge-in-the-title" type shots. Case in point is the upside down challenge. Many shots I voted on were taken normally and then simply rotated in PS - surely it wasn't as simple as that?
When I am voting I quite enjoy looking at the shots and working out how they comply. Some take a while and others are instant but that is surely the point - to make you think. I have been through the Toys challenge today and I found myself actually laughing out loud at the humour encapsulated in some of the shots presented.
All axes ground.
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08/08/2007 06:45:36 PM · #35 |
Originally posted by mileskea:
A challenge sets down the guidelines for the week. I don't hold with "take-a-picture-of-anything-add-the-challenge-in-the-title" type shots. |
Aye - I'm of the school of thought that believes the challenge title should never be mentioned in the title if one can at all help it. The photo should speak for itself; the title is merely an enhancement and should not have to tell you what the subject is supposed to be.
I take a rather liberal view of challenge topics. If I can look at the photo and connect it somehow ("Okay, I can see that") to the challenge topic, then it meets the challenge. Very few photos in my voting rounds do not pass this test. So I'm amused and disappointed at all the folks defending their high votes with an interpretation argument, essentially accusing those of us who saw it as DNMC of voting too narrowmindedly. It's a hummingbird. It "represents" (to use the challenge description's own vocabulary since one of those "interpretation" defenders decided to narrow the interpretation himself by parsing the rhetoric) nature, birds, speed, color, animals, things that are tiny, macros, hovering, wings, feathers, beaks, things that hover, flight, life, and whatever else you would put in a key word search for this beautiful shot of a beautiful creature. It does not convey any sense of "triumph", except to the photographer, because he knows what it took to achieve the shot. I understand that bit, how personal that can be. The photo itself is a triumph, but only when you know the story. When you don't, well, it's just a hummingbird. And while I have a weakness for hummingbirds and this particular shot is a stunner, when separated from its title, it's simply too much a stretch, even for me. DNMC, but a favorite when taken out of the challenge to stand on its own.
But I didn't vote. So meh.
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08/08/2007 07:48:02 PM · #36 |
| This photo had 234 votes. There was only one vote less than 4. You would think if you read this thread, that people who post in threads don't ever vote. |
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08/09/2007 12:09:23 AM · #37 |
It's a nice shot with a cumbersome title, which refers to the photographer and says nothing about the image. If I had awarded the image a generous 6, I'd have to take away 1 for the title and another 1 from that total (for the damage the title did to the whole of it/presentation). I'd have it a 4.
But it won. Ok.
My voting average is lower than that.
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08/09/2007 12:42:01 AM · #38 |
Careful Zeus, you're a few clicks away from being labeled a troll!
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08/09/2007 12:54:11 AM · #39 |
Originally posted by Rebecca:
Originally posted by mileskea:
A challenge sets down the guidelines for the week. I don't hold with "take-a-picture-of-anything-add-the-challenge-in-the-title" type shots. |
Aye - I'm of the school of thought that believes the challenge title should never be mentioned in the title if one can at all help it. The photo should speak for itself; the title is merely an enhancement and should not have to tell you what the subject is supposed to be.
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I have dealt in photojournalistic photography pretty much over 30 years now. I am a firm believer that the picture should tell the story and that titles are there to enhance 'after' the photograph has been understood... for the most part anyways. But in this case, I sincerely believe the title is needed.
When I first saw this photograph, the first thought in my mind was "Why can't I be lucky enough to get a shot as wonderful as that?" I have been trying to get a humdinger shot since I got my first camera...a Brownie. I have gotten alot of shots...most are blurry. Alot of the shots are of tails only... little buggers are quick. None of the pictures I have taken of the hummers are in a class to where I would enter them here.
So, when I saw this picture... I knew the 'tographer had felt the triumph even before I read the title. To me, Triumph was there, title or not. To others who may not have wasted hundreds of rolls of film trying to get such a shot... the title is an integral part of the shot.
Congrats again on the blue. IMHO...well deserved!!!
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08/09/2007 01:05:26 AM · #40 |
One thing I will point out. In my local photography club the challenge definition is pretty much law. If you don't follow it you either get hammered by the judges or outright DQ'd. That said the topics offer a lot of latitude. In the case of the hummingbird? I think that the challenge itself was pretty ambiguous however that also left the door open for a lot of creativity as well. I had strongly considered entering a picture of a high rise with the title "Climbing the Corporate Ladder". It may have done alright but it may have bombed too.
A couple of points to remember:
- No one on this site wants rigid guidelines that result in cookie cutter images
- It is sometime hard to provide a challenge topic that allows creativity yet leaves little doubt what the challenge topic is and what images shouldn't be submitted
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08/09/2007 01:27:34 AM · #41 |
If you don't think a photo meets the challenge vote it down if you believe that it's a must. I certainly vote harshly on photos I can't see meeting the challenge. But the problem is that you might not get what the photo is about every time. Now, sometimes there's an obvious photo that just has nothing to do with the challenge, and I'll vote that a 1. Personally I wouldn't mind if you could be DQ'd for not meeting the challenge, but I would beg that the person be able to defend their photo to the SC.
I also don't believe the title should be the only connection to the challenge. But let's be honest, I think a lot of people stretch a photo to meet a challenge with cunning use of titles. |
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08/09/2007 01:34:54 AM · #42 |
| It is impressive that the hummingbird ribboned in spite of it's gossamer connection to the challenge topic. Personally, I like something to hit the challenge dead on, and I dislike titles that justify the photo. But these are primarily matters of my own greatest pleasure and displeasure. |
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08/09/2007 06:41:40 AM · #43 |
The only challenge at DPC is to get a high score from voters.
Meeting the challenge is only one way to do this. Taking an exceptional photo is another, and photographing something unusual or inventive is one more.
In a small challenge (74 valid entries) with a vague and hard to represent theme, this exceptional photo did very well (perhaps because of, probably despite, the long title) - kudos to Jeff.
Personally, I think that a more elusive title would have been more satisfying - something like "One Shot in Ten Thousand", but that is a personal preference.
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08/09/2007 07:21:38 AM · #44 |
In meeting the challenge at DPC there are multiple things one has to look for. Voters on DPC want a technically well done photo regardless of the challenge that is vibrant and contrasty, has a good tonal range and is well in focus. A photo meeting these guidlines whether it meets the challenge or not well normally score in the 4.5-5.? range. Then if it also meets a loose interpretation of the challenge the score will normally go higher from their. That is, as long as the entry is defined by the voter to fit into the particular challenge even loosely.
Just my 2 cents,
Rich |
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08/09/2007 08:01:50 AM · #45 |
My thought is:
If you worked as a photographer for a newspaper and your boss said, get a picture the shows "Triumph" for an article we're doing, would he/she be happy with that image? |
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08/09/2007 08:16:47 AM · #46 |
Originally posted by Matthew:
The only challenge at DPC is to get a high score from voters.
Meeting the challenge is only one way to do this. Taking an exceptional photo is another, and photographing something unusual or inventive is one more.
In a small challenge (74 valid entries) with a vague and hard to represent theme, this exceptional photo did very well (perhaps because of, probably despite, the long title) - kudos to Jeff.
Personally, I think that a more elusive title would have been more satisfying - something like "One Shot in Ten Thousand", but that is a personal preference. |
If a high score is the only challenge why bother with setting a challenge in the first place? Why not just have every member submit a photo that can be judged by on its own merit.
If I read what you are trying to say correctly the weekly issue of challenges is irrelevant and any shot will do. I'm not sure that I agree with that concept - the challenges are designed to make you apply what you can do to what is required. If you are asked to deliver to a requirement you should deliver what is required.
Again a photo in a challenge should be able to convey the challenge without the use of clever title. If it needs the words the photo has not done the deed.
I am not proposing that a challenge should be so strict so as to leave no latitude in interpretation - everybody views the world differently after all - but a structure is required if a contest is the object of the excercise. |
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08/09/2007 08:35:47 AM · #47 |
Originally posted by Citadel:
One thing I will point out. In my local photography club the challenge definition is pretty much law. If you don't follow it you either get hammered by the judges or outright DQ'd. |
I've been to a photography club like that. Once. |
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08/09/2007 08:38:29 AM · #48 |
Originally posted by mileskea:
Again a photo in a challenge should be able to convey the challenge without the use of clever title. If it needs the words the photo has not done the deed. |
and that's just one way to view the challenge. If it were strictly true though, why would there be a box that asks for a title and why is it shown during voting ? Why do all your entries have titles if your pictures don't need words ?
Originally posted by mileskea:
I am not proposing that a challenge should be so strict so as to leave no latitude in interpretation - everybody views the world differently after all - but a structure is required if a contest is the object of the excercise. |
The structure is already there - there's a box for a title so a title is part of the structure. Now if you think it should be different, then that's a distinct discussion to have - but the way things are set up, the title is an integral part of the submission & voting. |
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08/09/2007 09:28:11 AM · #49 |
| I think to meet the challenge is the most important thing (you would not enter a cat in a dog show )If you cannot find a image to fit the challenge do not enter.I did not know so many members aggred with me ,so in future I will vote any image that does not meet the challenge very low ( 1 ) |
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08/09/2007 10:07:11 AM · #50 |
the voters have decided, the title helped a lot ... voters did see this as triumph, and as the challenge description said : "Take a photo representing triumph or success."
it does.
yeah ... i "shoehorned" it also :-) ... and ended @ 41% LOL
umm... thinking more about it, my photo clearly visualize triumph :-) ... errm, nevemind ... going home
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