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04/08/2007 04:50:39 PM · #51 |
So I like the idea too and agree something needs to be done, but to play devil's advocate, how does this really help anyone get more votes? You will still have 600 free study entries, just now in different categories of editing. If you say that then you only have to vote an 150 or so per challenge and that is easier for the voter, then why not just break up your voting into 150 image chunks? I don't really see how this would help get more votes, just more ribbon winners. just playing devil's advocate :)
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04/08/2007 04:56:28 PM · #52 |
Originally posted by jdannels:
So I like the idea too and agree something needs to be done, but to play devil's advocate, how does this really help anyone get more votes? You will still have 600 free study entries, just now in different categories of editing. If you say that then you only have to vote an 150 or so per challenge and that is easier for the voter, then why not just break up your voting into 150 image chunks? I don't really see how this would help get more votes, just more ribbon winners. just playing devil's advocate :) |
The problem isn't just getting more votes. It's getting the proper exposure, it's trying to level the field a little, it's trying to do something pro-active to counter a growing concern. There's always going to be a problem with any idea submitted, for sure, and I understand that there are some base problems with the idea as I submitted it. I do feel, however, that *something* needs to be done and I came up with the best solution I felt I could come up with. If ever it is to be considered, it will of course have to be tweaked and arranged so that it works in the best way possible.
Heck.. maybe we should just go back to having free studies once every 6 or so months like we used to.. unannounced and happy surprises. |
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04/08/2007 05:13:43 PM · #53 |
| Wouldn't extending the voting period for the monthly free study to two weeks - or even the entire month - make it more managable? |
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04/08/2007 05:17:34 PM · #54 |
| Other than volume & votes, here's another problem for me anyway. The current Free study is Expert Editing which I'm really not into. So, I wouldn't be able enter this one. Yes, it's my choice. But I like the idea of submitting your best image for the month.....just my 2cents. |
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04/08/2007 05:18:37 PM · #55 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
The problem isn't just getting more votes. It's getting the proper exposure, it's trying to level the field a little, it's trying to do something pro-active to counter a growing concern. There's always going to be a problem with any idea submitted, for sure, and I understand that there are some base problems with the idea as I submitted it. I do feel, however, that *something* needs to be done and I came up with the best solution I felt I could come up with. If ever it is to be considered, it will of course have to be tweaked and arranged so that it works in the best way possible.
Heck.. maybe we should just go back to having free studies once every 6 or so months like we used to.. unannounced and happy surprises. |
I agree that it is tough, and I do like you idea alot, but everyone was getting along and agreeing on something in a DPC thread, that I had to spice things up abit. :P. I am not really looking forward to seeing 453 entries expertly edited this month, but I could handle around a 100. |
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04/08/2007 05:21:37 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by jdannels:
Originally posted by Artyste:
The problem isn't just getting more votes. It's getting the proper exposure, it's trying to level the field a little, it's trying to do something pro-active to counter a growing concern. There's always going to be a problem with any idea submitted, for sure, and I understand that there are some base problems with the idea as I submitted it. I do feel, however, that *something* needs to be done and I came up with the best solution I felt I could come up with. If ever it is to be considered, it will of course have to be tweaked and arranged so that it works in the best way possible.
Heck.. maybe we should just go back to having free studies once every 6 or so months like we used to.. unannounced and happy surprises. |
I agree that it is tough, and I do like you idea alot, but everyone was getting along and agreeing on something in a DPC thread, that I had to spice things up abit. :P. I am not really looking forward to seeing 453 entries expertly edited this month, but I could handle around a 100. |
Well if you dont enter thats one less that i have to vote on! |
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04/08/2007 05:25:57 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by SaraR:
Wouldn't extending the voting period for the monthly free study to two weeks - or even the entire month - make it more managable? |
Yes, and it's a decent solution if that were the only real problem. |
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04/08/2007 05:26:11 PM · #58 |
Originally posted by RainMotorsports:
[
Well if you dont enter thats one less that i have to vote on! |
Ah man I want your vote! your average vote given is sweet! :) |
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04/08/2007 05:44:15 PM · #59 |
I agree that finding someway to "divide" the free studies may be a good idea. I don't think dividing it by editing rules would be the best way to do. I strongly suspect if we allowed 4 editing divisions, (based on a 600 picture field) there would be 25 - 50 minimal entries, 100 - 150 basic, 250 - 300 advanced and 100 or so expert. While the chunks are admittedly smaller, most people would probably gravitate to the smaller challenges to vote, and that wouldn't be good, I don't think.
(and yes, those numbers are pulled out of the air based on 5 years of watching which challenges had the most entries, etc.) |
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04/08/2007 05:51:47 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I agree that finding someway to "divide" the free studies may be a good idea. I don't think dividing it by editing rules would be the best way to do. I strongly suspect if we allowed 4 editing divisions, (based on a 600 picture field) there would be 25 - 50 minimal entries, 100 - 150 basic, 250 - 300 advanced and 100 or so expert. While the chunks are admittedly smaller, most people would probably gravitate to the smaller challenges to vote, and that wouldn't be good, I don't think.
(and yes, those numbers are pulled out of the air based on 5 years of watching which challenges had the most entries, etc.) |
Yes, I've had the same reservations as well over the last few hours thinking about it.. but I also wondered if maybe we could make the minimal/basic as registered users only.. and advanced/expert as members only..
Of course, that brings up its own problems. I like the thoughts that have been bandied about of cycling the editing rulesets in twos.. having two one month, two the next.. that sort of thing. |
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04/08/2007 05:53:51 PM · #61 |
Originally posted by karmat:
I agree that finding someway to "divide" the free studies may be a good idea. I don't think dividing it by editing rules would be the best way to do. I strongly suspect if we allowed 4 editing divisions, (based on a 600 picture field) there would be 25 - 50 minimal entries, 100 - 150 basic, 250 - 300 advanced and 100 or so expert. While the chunks are admittedly smaller, most people would probably gravitate to the smaller challenges to vote, and that wouldn't be good, I don't think.
(and yes, those numbers are pulled out of the air based on 5 years of watching which challenges had the most entries, etc.) |
why not two per month. either a minimal/basic and an advanced/expert. there would probably be close to 300 entries each. with four, people would run away from the least popular (which would likely be minimal) leaving it with very few entries as you suggest. but with two, people will choose their favorite, and there will likely be an even balance. the four possible pairings in a given month are minimal/advanced, minimal/expert, basic/advanced, and basic/expert. i don't think any of them will have a significant imbalance. |
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04/08/2007 06:19:12 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by jdannels:
...how does this really help anyone get more votes? You will still have 600 free study entries |
I don't believe in the 20% thing - it is a bandaid solution at best. Hundreds of entries just turn me off, so I end up never entering or voting on free studies.
If they were split into smaller amounts, I would be much more likely to vote on at least one or even more of them.
I agree that splitting them according to editing level would be at least worth a trial run for a while, and it appears to be a pretty popular idea.
If it doesn't work out very well, we can always come up with plan B at that point. |
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04/08/2007 06:20:16 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
.. but I also wondered if maybe we could make the minimal/basic as registered users only.. and advanced/expert as members only.. |
I'd have to cancel my membership if we did that! :-) |
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04/08/2007 06:41:20 PM · #64 |
Well ... erm ... one FS with 800 entries and 4 FS with 200 entries each are going to amount to the same amount of voting in the end ...
I don't understand how "too many entries" to vote on would be a reason to split up the FS into 4 categories ...
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04/08/2007 06:45:43 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by Melethia:
Originally posted by Artyste:
.. but I also wondered if maybe we could make the minimal/basic as registered users only.. and advanced/expert as members only.. |
I'd have to cancel my membership if we did that! :-) |
It's already basically what is done with the open vs. member challenges now anyway ;)
And oops.. I didn't mean registered users *only*.. just that registered users could join in on them. lol
Message edited by author 2007-04-08 18:46:20. |
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04/08/2007 07:08:36 PM · #66 |
| Although I appreciate the OP's original post and agree to a point, I don't think that dividing the FS into seperate groups really accomplishes much. There are just as many entries to vote on and Karmat I believe is right in feeling that voting selectively on challenges would be a bit wrong. To me, all it accomplishes is a dividing of the community. The idea of the free study is to submit what you feel is your best image of the month regardless of technique and let the voters decide placement. We all have a preference and if one firmly believes in their 'style' of photography, they should shoot and submit accordingly to please themselves. In theory, I believe the expert editing rule is the best for free study anyway. It allows for complete freedom of choice giving everyone a full range of options... if they opt to use them or not. A good image is a good image, bare bones or edited to the hilt. |
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04/08/2007 07:16:19 PM · #67 |
| Four choices but ya can only enter one of them. Then make it so you can only vote on the other three that you did not enter. Therefore you are not voting against your own entry but in the other three categoroes. Doing this will not make the total number of entries much larger than a single contest but spreads them out giving more opportunities to ribbon. |
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04/08/2007 07:26:11 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by Qart:
In theory, I believe the expert editing rule is the best for free study anyway. It allows for complete freedom of choice giving everyone a full range of options... if they opt to use them or not. A good image is a good image, bare bones or edited to the hilt. |
It's a good theory, but in practice, it has been proven quite faulty so far. I'd need a lot more expert editing challenges with a lot less "crazy photoshopped artwork" results in the top 20 before I can ever put any kind of myself behind that ruleset being the best, on this site, for free studies.
Anyway, my original point wasn't really to separate them specifically because I felt that different editing styles were being lost in Free Studies. It was a combination of all the problems that result from having too many entries in *one* challenge. We had that problem with open challenges, and we split them up, and it has worked. It's been a good thing. I was trying for something similar.
Agreed, my initial idea was rough and obviously needs some discussion and tweaking, but I still think.. if we're going to continue to have monthly free studies.. something needs to be done. Whether or not it's simply for psychological reasons (much easier to vote on 300 in one challenge, and 300 in another, than 600 all at once... blame it on the brain), I think enough people believe it's a problem |
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04/08/2007 07:41:16 PM · #69 |
| Artyste your point's well taken and yes, the sheer volume is a problem. I think most are in agreement with that. I do however have some reservations seperating the challenge based on editing preferences. Yes more ribbons are awarded... which was mentioned by Phantom... but the end result seems a bit watered down to me. I do agree that there was a very real 'run with the ball' mentality when the expert challenges were introduced, hell I'm as guilty as anyone but I do think that in time things will settle in a bit and the excessive photoshopping will taper off. If it's done poorly, it won't pass unnoticed anyway... :) |
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04/08/2007 07:50:11 PM · #70 |
Originally posted by Qart:
Artyste your point's well taken and yes, the sheer volume is a problem. I think most are in agreement with that. I do however have some reservations seperating the challenge based on editing preferences. Yes more ribbons are awarded... which was mentioned by Phantom... but the end result seems a bit watered down to me. I do agree that there was a very real 'run with the ball' mentality when the expert challenges were introduced, hell I'm as guilty as anyone but I do think that in time things will settle in a bit and the excessive photoshopping will taper off. If it's done poorly, it won't pass unnoticed anyway... :) |
As I said, it was an idea and suggestion. I have no problem whatsoever with the dissection of it, if, in the end, something has been fixed.. or, a majority general consensus that it is all ok as it is is reached. |
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04/08/2007 08:03:17 PM · #71 |
600+ entries is unwieldy. Perhaps we could impose other restrictions that would tend to reduce the number of entries. The term 'study' implies more than one image of the same subject. In that regard, suppose we require that each entry consist of four (non-identical) images of the same subject. This would be uploaded as a single 640 X 480 consisting of four quadrants, each containing a separate image. So four 320 X 240 images that still look appealing would be the real challenge! But think of the possibilities, four images to truly explore your potential as a photographer, the sequence could even tell a short story. Studies of faces, nudes, etc. would more adequately portray the photographers talent.
Well maybe just a one time challenge. But 600 entires is difficult to deal with. |
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04/08/2007 08:44:08 PM · #72 |
Another down side to the large number of submissions is the average number of comments received.
The last free study averaged less than 8 comments per submission compared to the last open challenge which averaged almost twice as many comments per submission.
For newcomers, new members and those who wish to improve their scoring, the feedback received from comments is one of the big attractions of participating at a site like this.
cheers,
bazz. |
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04/08/2007 08:48:00 PM · #73 |
I like the idea of them being split....maybe only break it into two categories instead of four
basic editing and advanced....or advanced and expert....etc
Like some people say it's turing out to be a contest of who can photoshop the best which is fine for those that want and are willing to spend the extra time doing that....but for the rest of us it's about capturing the image and not having to do a bunch of editing to it! |
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04/08/2007 08:53:54 PM · #74 |
Originally posted by sir_bazz:
Another down side to the large number of submissions is the average number of comments received.
The last free study averaged less than 8 comments per submission compared to the last open challenge which averaged almost twice as many comments per submission.
For newcomers, new members and those who wish to improve their scoring, the feedback received from comments is one of the big attractions of participating at a site like this.
cheers,
bazz. |
That's why you limit which category each photog can submit to. It would actually reduce the number of entries in each making voting easier. Maybe just two categories, basic and advanced. |
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04/08/2007 08:56:39 PM · #75 |
Would there be anything to the idea of limiting the number of submissions to any particular free study? Say a cap of 300 and then when the cap is reached, it moves on into voting.
I'm just playing with the idea, so say:
1. a free study is announced, and stays open for submissions until the cap is reached
2. at the cap, the free study moves into voting
3. one week must elapse after that free study closes before the next free study is announced
and so on... |
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