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11/28/2003 10:06:20 AM · #51 |
Some of my thoughts:
There is a HUGE difference between images intended to be art (i.e. not created for a contest but created by the artist for the pleasure of creativity) and images created for entry in a themed challenge/ contest where voters will take theme into account.
In the first case, where there is a theme at all it's literally nothing more than a starting point for the artist, something to kick start their creative process but without the need to worry about their thought processes wondering "off topic".
The artists don't need to worry about how the starting topic comes through in final image as for them it's not about that.
On DPC it's about ensuring that your image communicates challenge theme to the voters (well, if you want a high score, that's what you need to ensure, in any case) at the same time as being a good, appealing image that can stand on it's own, outside of the challenge; by that I mean that it's an image people will find interesting and appealing when viewing it without knowledge of/ outside the context of the challenge.
I often see wonderful images on DPC that I think are absolutely as good as anything that has won ribbons, when judged without reference to the challenge theme. I see some that I could see hanging in galleries next to work by some of the great photographers, without suffering from the comparison. But they suffer either because they don't communicate the challenge theme or because they appeal to a smaller section of the audience.
The more unusual images tend to appeal to fewer people but, to the people who do like them, are every bit as striking and appealing as the more mainstream (for what of a better word) images.
I don't understand either why people are down on the concept of stock photography. To be accepted into the better known (and more highly paid) stock libraries images have to be pretty damn good, with strong visual appeal to a broad audience. I don't think that's a bad thing at all.
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11/28/2003 10:45:46 AM · #52 |
What I don't get is why Ursula's complaint was turned into a discussion about Kiwi's wins (not by Ursula, but by others) ? ? ?
Looks like some people are a little obsessed / carrying sour grapes about someone else's success.
And Ursula, if you need to take a little break, it's ok. I'm in the process of taking a little break myself, as I shift priorities for a little while.
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11/28/2003 10:52:13 AM · #53 |
No sour grapes here. I just used the photo as an example to make a point to support Ursula's statements.
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11/28/2003 10:53:35 AM · #54 |
Wasn't directed at you, you seemed to just be jumping on a bandwagon that drove up earlier in the thread- with, in fact, the first responder to Ursula.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
No sour grapes here. I just used the photo as an example to make a point to support Ursula's statements. |
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11/28/2003 11:10:49 AM · #55 |
Ursula,
Please, if you leave, it is not for long.
When people like you stop submiting then the group suffers as a whole.
I feel, as you do, that far to much emphasis is placed on the viewer's concept "meet the challenge" at the time of voting. But I feel equally strongly that an image (Like yours called "nursing a beer") transcends the challenge and lives far beyond it.
The images I cherish the most are those that I never tire of looking at regardless of their score or whether they got a ribbon.
You supply everything I look for from this group. I will be sad if you stop submiting for very long.
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11/28/2003 11:38:50 AM · #56 |
If the folks who are complaining don't like the rules here, why do you participate?
The Challenge Rules, which you agree to have read and understand every time you check that little box when you submit an entry, spell it out clearly:
While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly.
The challenge theme is what makes DPC what it is. If you want to get feedback on any old thing you happened to take a picture of, there are plenty of other sites on the 'net for you to do that. Here at DPC, the competitions are theme-based, and those who "meet the challenge topic" should be rewarded for doing so.
It really bothers me when people say "I don't even take into consideration the challenge topic when voting, I just vote on the picture itself". Because to me, that is like saying "the rules don't apply to me". And it makes me wonder... what other rules have they decided don't apply to them? Do they submit pictures taken outside of the challenge dates? Spot edit? etc.
Nobody is forcing anybody to submit to the challenges here. If you don't like the rules, don't participate. Simple as that. |
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11/28/2003 11:42:52 AM · #57 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
If the folks who are complaining don't like the rules here, why do you participate?
The Challenge Rules, which you agree to have read and understand every time you check that little box when you submit an entry, spell it out clearly:
While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly.
The challenge theme is what makes DPC what it is. If you want to get feedback on any old thing you happened to take a picture of, there are plenty of other sites on the 'net for you to do that. Here at DPC, the competitions are theme-based, and those who "meet the challenge topic" should be rewarded for doing so.
It really bothers me when people say "I don't even take into consideration the challenge topic when voting, I just vote on the picture itself". Because to me, that is like saying "the rules don't apply to me". And it makes me wonder... what other rules have they decided don't apply to them? Do they submit pictures taken outside of the challenge dates? Spot edit? etc.
Nobody is forcing anybody to submit to the challenges here. If you don't like the rules, don't participate. Simple as that. |
I'm one of those who doesn't consider the challenge topic. I'm also one of those who gets frustrated with the 'take your stuff to some other site' concept. I have been to all those other sites and NONE of them come close to having the community element that DPC has. There is room for everything here.
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11/28/2003 11:57:07 AM · #58 |
I'm one of those who doesn't consider the challenge topic. I'm also one of those who gets frustrated with the 'take your stuff to some other site' concept. I have been to all those other sites and NONE of them come close to having the community element that DPC has. There is room for everything here.
I find it disturbing to realize this is your view since you wear the purple shirt and are supposed to be following the "rules & regs" or so I thought. |
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11/28/2003 11:58:12 AM · #59 |
Originally posted by sonnyh:
I'm one of those who doesn't consider the challenge topic. I'm also one of those who gets frustrated with the 'take your stuff to some other site' concept. I have been to all those other sites and NONE of them come close to having the community element that DPC has. There is room for everything here.
I find it disturbing to realize this is your view since you wear the purple shirt and are supposed to be following the "rules & regs" or so I thought. |
Everyone has their own methods of voting. Am I not entitled to mine?
However, I think you are right. I'll start dishing out a vote of 1 if I can't see how it meets the challenge in the future. There are a LOT of photos here every week that I can't see any tie-in to the challenge theme.
Message edited by author 2003-11-28 12:03:00.
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11/28/2003 12:09:30 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Everyone has their own methods of voting. Am I not entitled to mine?
However, I think you are right. I'll start dishing out a vote of 1 if I can't see how it meets the challenge in the future. There are a LOT of photos here every week that I can't see any tie-in to the challenge theme. |
I like your other voting method better!
And I don't believe you really don't take the topic into consideration at all ... anyone who has tried any form of meditation will tell you that NOT thinking of something is a skill learned with difficulty and patience. I think it is more likely you start from the assumption that the photographer DID see and capture a connection to the topic, even if it's not immediately obvious to you, and then vote on the merits of the picture.
Message edited by author 2003-11-28 12:09:56. |
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11/28/2003 12:15:36 PM · #61 |
The point isn't whether or not I abide by the site rules. It is that while abiding by the site rules I (and seemingly many others) keep getting comments such as, "This doesn't fit the challenge topic." Now, if the topic is to take a picture of red polka dots on a black background and I turn in a picture of a reflection or a couple trees, then I can live with that comment. But, if my picture represents something very much within the challenge topic and I get that note, I find it frustrating. At least phrase it "I can't see or smell the connection", not just "It doesn't fit".
And nobody should get down on John's voting - he's considerate and makes kind and helpful remarks (and takes very good pictures).
Ursula
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11/28/2003 12:16:32 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by sonnyh:
I'm one of those who doesn't consider the challenge topic. I'm also one of those who gets frustrated with the 'take your stuff to some other site' concept. I have been to all those other sites and NONE of them come close to having the community element that DPC has. There is room for everything here.
I find it disturbing to realize this is your view since you wear the purple shirt and are supposed to be following the "rules & regs" or so I thought. |
I, on the other hand, find it refreshing and exemplary. |
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11/28/2003 12:17:52 PM · #63 |
im gonna go out on a limb here and say that alot of people dont seem to have an eye for subtlety. for many, things are BLACK or WHITE.
makes it harder for those of us who see shades of GRAY. . .
But that's part of 'making it' at dpc...
Originally posted by uabresch:
The point isn't whether or not I abide by the site rules. It is that while abiding by the site rules I (and seemingly many others) keep getting comments such as, "This doesn't fit the challenge topic." Now, if the topic is to take a picture of red polka dots on a black background and I turn in a picture of a reflection or a couple trees, then I can live with that comment. But, if my picture represents something very much within the challenge topic and I get that note, I find it frustrating. At least phrase it "I can't see or smell the connection", not just "It doesn't fit".
And nobody should get down on John's voting - he's considerate and makes kind and helpful remarks (and takes very good pictures).
Ursula |
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11/28/2003 12:17:53 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by sonnyh:
I'm one of those who doesn't consider the challenge topic. I'm also one of those who gets frustrated with the 'take your stuff to some other site' concept. I have been to all those other sites and NONE of them come close to having the community element that DPC has. There is room for everything here.
I find it disturbing to realize this is your view since you wear the purple shirt and are supposed to be following the "rules & regs" or so I thought. |
I, on the other hand, find it refreshing and exemplary. |
Same here (I'm trying to think of a more elegant way to say "same here", but can't think of anything right now :))
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11/28/2003 12:19:07 PM · #65 |
maybe the site needs to be different then .. instead of theme based challenges, they should all be open challenges? otherwise, what relevance is the assignment?
Answer: None.
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by sonnyh:
I'm one of those who doesn't consider the challenge topic. I'm also one of those who gets frustrated with the 'take your stuff to some other site' concept. I have been to all those other sites and NONE of them come close to having the community element that DPC has. There is room for everything here.
I find it disturbing to realize this is your view since you wear the purple shirt and are supposed to be following the "rules & regs" or so I thought. |
I, on the other hand, find it refreshing and exemplary. |
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11/28/2003 12:23:00 PM · #66 |
Ursula, there is nothing wrong with taking time off. I do that about once a month at least (I usually skip three to four challenges).
Personally, I would miss you if you leave. So please take a rest and come back.
When I get frustrated by certain knuckleheads here on DPC, I just go out and photograph just for myself. I shoot and shoot and then enjoy editing without limits and rules. Then when I start missing DPC, come back and enjoy again.
I know this site can be very addictive, but if you just concentrate on DPC than you will miss on other fun stuff in the meantime. So don't give up just yet.
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11/28/2003 12:28:32 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
maybe the site needs to be different then .. instead of theme based challenges, they should all be open challenges? otherwise, what relevance is the assignment?
Answer: None.
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That would be great :)
I'm not asking anyone to change anything. I'm sorry that you don't like the way I decide to vote. My vote is one vote of many. I don't ask anyone to vote the way I do and I don't ask anyone to take anything in particular into consideration when they vote.
I will not post my opinion on how I vote here again. If you don't like the way I vote, just ignore my vote and any comment I may leave as worthless.
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11/28/2003 12:44:27 PM · #68 |
my opinion is sort of in the middle on this one. first of all dpc really is a great learning tool. i have grown immensely in photography since i joined and if it wasn't for the ability to submit whatever i like in any challenge, i would have been gone long ago and never would have won a ribbon. the problem i have with people not meeting the challenge is that when we have a challenge like landscapes and someone posts a picture of a dog, it doesn't anger me that they posted a picture of the dog, it's that the photo is off challenge and photo really just sucks, i.e. blurring, compression artifacts, general ugliness. i have nothing against people for going against the grain and trying to be artistic in their own futile delusional ways, but over the last few months there has been an increasingly large amount of crap entering the challenge. challenge topic matters, and should definitely be taken into consideration. if you plan to veer from the challenge, you better have a damn good photo of a pet or a rock or a pet rock or else you will be sadly disappointed and continue to live in a world where you are never pushing yourself to a higher standard of photography.
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11/28/2003 12:48:09 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
...I will not post my opinion on how I vote here again... |
Your opinion was needed here, John. Without it, the thread would be less representative of the presences here.
I also want to steer attention to the possibility that the sensibilities of those with a recognized artistic accomplishment are not made of steel. I'd say, the opposite is the probably the case. Just because one suffers a passionate relationship with the things one does and is affected by, often makes for a solitary path and stance, one quite easily squelched.
I think it is vital, that the sensible voice be heard, no matter how thick (pun intended) the crowd. |
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11/28/2003 01:03:57 PM · #70 |
I just tend to agree with opinions that have been expressed that, in accepting this role as helpers of the site, and upholders of the rules,
our public stance should be to support those rules, not flaut them.
By taking on the role of Site Council, your stance publically should be in support of the site's rules, which have been determined by consensus altho in some cases, unilaterally by the site's owners - which is THEIR perogative.
Yes, you can have opinions, but when you actually act, you should act with respect to those rules.
You can share the opinions with others, and you can advocate, suggest, and otherwise entreat other SC members and admins to change the rules -- but while they are in effect, they are the rules and your job is to support them.
If you - or anyone else - finds that the conflict of interest between your personal and public stance is too great to endure, then it should be incumbent on you to STEP DOWN.
Please don't take this personally, this is the general way I would feel towards anyone in this situation.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[quote=magnetic9999] If you don't like the way I vote, just ignore my vote and any comment I may leave as worthless. |
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11/28/2003 01:07:04 PM · #71 |
im gonna go out on a limb here and say that alot of people dont seem to have an eye for subtlety. for many, things are BLACK or WHITE.
makes it harder for those of us who see shades of GRAY. . .
But that's part of 'making it' at dpc...
Originally posted by achiral:
my opinion is sort of in the middle on this one. first of all dpc really is a great learning tool. i have grown immensely in photography since i joined and if it wasn't for the ability to submit whatever i like in any challenge, i would have been gone long ago and never would have won a ribbon. the problem i have with people not meeting the challenge is that when we have a challenge like landscapes and someone posts a picture of a dog, it doesn't anger me that they posted a picture of the dog, it's that the photo is off challenge and photo really just sucks, i.e. blurring, compression artifacts, general ugliness. i have nothing against people for going against the grain and trying to be artistic in their own futile delusional ways, but over the last few months there has been an increasingly large amount of crap entering the challenge. challenge topic matters, and should definitely be taken into consideration. if you plan to veer from the challenge, you better have a damn good photo of a pet or a rock or a pet rock or else you will be sadly disappointed and continue to live in a world where you are never pushing yourself to a higher standard of photography. |
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11/28/2003 01:10:46 PM · #72 |
Originally posted by magnetic9999:
I just tend to agree with opinions that have been expressed that, in accepting this role as helpers of the site, and upholders of the rules,
our public stance should be to support those rules, not flaut them.
By taking on the role of Site Council, your stance publically should be in support of the site's rules, which have been determined by consensus altho in some cases, unilaterally by the site's owners - which is THEIR perogative.
Yes, you can have opinions, but when you actually act, you should act with respect to those rules.
You can share the opinions with others, and you can advocate, suggest, and otherwise entreat other SC members and admins to change the rules -- but while they are in effect, they are the rules and your job is to support them.
If you - or anyone else - finds that the conflict of interest between your personal and public stance is too great to endure, then it should be incumbent on you to STEP DOWN.
Please don't take this personally, this is the general way I would feel towards anyone in this situation.
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
[quote=magnetic9999] If you don't like the way I vote, just ignore my vote and any comment I may leave as worthless. |
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You probably should start a movement to have me removed then.
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11/28/2003 01:12:31 PM · #73 |
> magnetic
Should there be no room and liberty to question the sense (as opposed to the 'letter') of a rule as a matter of personal opinion (so qualified as one in John's post)? |
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11/28/2003 01:16:41 PM · #74 |
the whole point is someone who sees in shades of gray is probably not going to win 9/10 times, maybe there is a trend here? i just have to echo the idea that dpc is totally about being able to definitely and strongly portray your message. i.e. things need to be dumbed down in terms of subject matter in order for many to understand what is going on or appreciate it. i'm not saying i agree or disagree, i'm just going by what has worked in the past and what i think will be the same in the future.
let me just also say i have nothing against art photography and actually that is something i am interested in. because dpc doesn't really produce a ton of those types of shots i am kind of at a loss about where to begin in that area. i like gordon's statement in his bio. He says he is quite good at the technical side of things but is working on developing his artistic eye. i think that sums up how dpc is to a certain extent
80-90% of people who believe technical excellence and conveying a clear message is primary
vs.
10-20% of people who feel expression and ambiguity yields the best photos
how can we combine the 2 and learn from each other? i think that's the key.
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11/28/2003 01:28:51 PM · #75 |
Originally posted by achiral:
80-90% of people who believe technical excellence and conveying a clear message is primary
vs.
10-20% of people who feel expression and ambiguity yields the best photos
how can we combine the 2 and learn from each other? i think that's the key. |
Expression (?) and ambiguity? Ambiguity, certainly, is not a characteristic of what makes a piece 'artistic'. Art instead, like science, insists on fact and struggles to achieve its particular facts with 'clarity' and articulation.
Message edited by author 2003-11-28 13:29:17. |
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