Some basic questions about Christianity

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02/01/2007 01:02:06 AM · #51

Originally posted by nemesise1977:

God refers to Christ as his Son many times and Christ prays to God. I also dont know of any place where Christ says he is God, if anyone can show me a refrence I would like to see it...

//www.probe.org/content/view/90/77/

//www.godonthe.net/evidence/said_god.htm

//www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/jesus_claims.php

//www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/jesusclaimshub.html

Message edited by author 2007-02-01 01:05:27.

rjkstesch

Nikon D700

02/01/2007 01:04:43 AM · #52

Originally posted by levyj413:

Christianity contains many sects and versions with differening beliefs, however, all Christian groups hold Jesus Christ as center of their worship. Among the many differences, the concept of God, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit has some of the most variation. However, as I see it, the variations range from one physically to three separate and distinct individuals with a single purpose, therefore being one.

My personal understanding and knowledge is based on the belief that God has a physical body and is the literal spiritual and physical father of Jesus Christ, and that the Holy Spirit is a separate member of the Godhead with only a spirit form. These three entities work together to guide and direct us on this earth.

Under God's direction the earth was created and populated. Jesus the Christ is the hands that provide guidance and direction in the times of the Old Testament(in spirit form), while he was earth, and now after his resurection. He came to earth and gained a body, paid for our sins through the atonement and then overpowered death through the resurection. Jesus Christ continues to provide guidance and direction to the earth in his resurected state. The Holy Ghost, in spirit form, assists God and Jesus Christ. Because He is in spirit form, his spirit can speak to our spirits. Our spirits can then communicate with our physical bodies.

We do worship Jesus Christ and God. Their purposes are the same. Their actions are in synch. As Jesus Christ provides the hands that guide us, we pray to God through Him, much that way that we go to our direct supervisor instead of the CEO.

Becky

nemesise1977

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02/01/2007 01:13:38 AM · #53

Originally posted by klstover:

Originally posted by nemesise1977:
God refers to Christ as his Son many times and Christ prays to God. I also dont know of any place where Christ says he is God, if anyone can show me a refrence I would like to see it...

//www.probe.org/content/view/90/77/

//www.godonthe.net/evidence/said_god.htm

//www.biblestudylessons.com/cgi-bin/gospel_way/jesus_claims.php

unfortunatly we will have to disagree here, in none of these refrences does Christ say he is God, but the Messiah or the Son of God. the forgivness of sins is that man can forgive ect, most of what is stated there is people inferring that Christ is God. Not Christ saying he is as I do not think he would make it cryptic for us to try and find. I do think you for giving me the refrences and hope you continue your journy in faith and realise that because I do not agree with the infrences made here that I doubt your faith because I do not and truly do value your opinion as I hope you do mine.

//www.tektonics.org/jesusclaims/jesusclaimshub.html

wavelength

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02/01/2007 01:17:36 AM · #54

Originally posted by klstover:

Whoa! I just got through the Probe one, that was pretty thorough already!

levyj413

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02/01/2007 01:19:18 AM · #55

Jews are also divided in our understanding of a million details, so the concept isn't new to me. I really appreciate you each emphasizing what you believe as opposed to speaking for everyone; I try to do the same when people ask me about Judaism.

I've learned so much about various beliefs within Christianity, and I've also come to realize that even the word "monotheism" can mean different things to different people.

So again, thanks so very much to all of you! :)

02/01/2007 01:23:11 AM · #56

Originally posted by nemesise1977:

unfortunatly we will have to disagree here, in none of these refrences does Christ say he is God, but the Messiah or the Son of God. the forgivness of sins is that man can forgive ect, most of what is stated there is people inferring that Christ is God. Not Christ saying he is as I do not think he would make it cryptic for us to try and find. I do think you for giving me the refrences and hope you continue your journy in faith and realise that because I do not agree with the infrences made here that I doubt your faith because I do not and truly do value your opinion as I hope you do mine.

No, I am not taking anything negative from you disagreeing with me. :-)

Did you look here? It was from a link off of the last page I posted so it might have been very overlook-able. If you read the stuff in English (or other translated languages) it *does* look like we have to infer stuff, but in the original language the Bible was written it makes a big difference.

From that page:
I AM [meaning when Jesus says "I am..." in John] thus provides a powerful self-identification in which Jesus identifies himself with the roles and person of YHWH in the Old Testament.
...
In Isaiah ani hu is "always attributed to Yahweh" and is a statement only he can make. Anyone else making the same statement would be guilty of "an attempt to claim equality with God or displace him."

Message edited by author 2007-02-01 01:24:32.

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02/01/2007 01:25:50 AM · #57

Originally posted by levyj413:

I've learned so much about various beliefs within Christianity, and I've also come to realize that even the word "monotheism" can mean different things to different people.

So again, thanks so very much to all of you! :)

Yay! Learning stuff like this is pretty neat I think. :-)
And thanks to you, for sparking such a great discussion.

eschelar

Canon EOS-7D

02/01/2007 01:26:34 AM · #58

Oy. I can't believe I'm posting to this.

I am glad that someone mentioned the later verses of John. I've always seen those verses as referring to purpose. It certainly doesn't make sense that Jesus is referring to a triune presence if he is including all of his disciples as well.

Indeed, there are many parts of the Bible which speak of them as having similar qualities, but there are others which speak of their separateness. 1 Corinthians 15 is loaded with Paul's references to them being separate. Indeed much of Paul's writings lend support to indicate (to me at least) that Jesus is not his Father.

I don't want to go into it as this isn't really the place for me.

As for the validity of Jesus sacrifice, indeed, that for me is probably the strongest indiciation that he is NOT God. Read Romans 5, specifically 12-17.

Jesus is there equated with Adam. He had to die because ADAM had sinned. Therefore, Jesus had to be equal to Adam. Adam certainly is not God. An equal sacrifice demands both that Jesus is equal to Adam (hence a man) and that he must have died. If he was part of a triune entity, then he is God. Who resurrected him then? If God resurrected Jesus and Jesus is God, then Jesus didn't really die and the sacrifice in his death is really like paying monopoly money for a ransom. Or more accurately, like paying a ransom with a bad cheque.

I believe that this is why Paul speaks as he does in Chapter 15 of First Corinthians.

Later on this is also clarified in Philippians 2:5-11

I have not seen scriptures that give a personal quality to the Holy Spirit.

I like the way Nemesise put it where so many religions have been formed, but were done so by men. The purpose is to try to please God in the best way they can. So motive is vital. Accuracy is a lot harder to define because of a number of factors - not least of which is the massive lopsidedness of the beliefs of those who are taking the lead in setting up these religions and studying texts which the common person has great difficulty doing himself (I don't read ancient Hebrew).

Sure seems like Nem has given this matter some thought and put a number of issues quite eloquently.

Lastly, the issue of the Genesis 18 is a quirk of English.

In the first verse which refers to the LORD/YHWH/however you wish to translate...., the 'you' and 'your' are in the singular. The following verses indicate a shift in who is being addressed. Note Vs 1, vs 3 and vs 4. In vs 1 and 3, he is addressing the LORD. In vs 4, he is addressing the 3 individuals. I don't have a problem with that though.

Let's not forget that Jesus himself said that no man has seen God. This would apply to Abraham and to those who were viewing Jesus at the time. Indeed, like Nem said... Jesus stated that he is the WAY to God.

wavelength

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02/01/2007 01:30:26 AM · #59

Originally posted by nemesise1977:

Justin, I hope that you did not feel attacked in any way, but you're right, we DO disagree on that ;)

I disagree with my Dad on many other things doctrinal (and the fact that he thinks James shouldn't be in the Bible), but I think this one is a bit too important to let go. I hope that you take in the reading that Kelli put up, and make a decision based on the scripture contained within. God bless.

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02/01/2007 01:35:50 AM · #60

Originally posted by eschelar:

As for the validity of Jesus sacrifice, indeed, that for me is probably the strongest indiciation that he is NOT God. Read Romans 5, specifically 12-17.

Jesus is there equated with Adam. He had to die because ADAM had sinned. Therefore, Jesus had to be equal to Adam. Adam certainly is not God. An equal sacrifice demands both that Jesus is equal to Adam (hence a man) and that he must have died. If he was part of a triune entity, then he is God. Who resurrected him then? If God resurrected Jesus and Jesus is God, then Jesus didn't really die and the sacrifice in his death is really like paying monopoly money for a ransom. Or more accurately, like paying a ransom with a bad cheque.

So the only just penalty in our society is an eye for an eye? We have penalties that can represent atonement without making something equal...

I'm too tired to make sense. Argh.

What I am trying to say is: He didn't make himself *equal* to Adam / equal to a man but instead became *like* us in some ways (physical form) so that he could physically die. The concept is that God hates sin so much (because he is perfect) that blood has to be shed when sin is committed (eg the animal sacrifices in the Old Testement). But the love that God had for us was enough that he himself would rather die than see us not be redeemed.

edit: I'm going to bed so I hope this does make sense... :)

Message edited by author 2007-02-01 01:37:37.

nemesise1977

Canon EOS-300D Rebel

02/01/2007 01:39:50 AM · #61

Originally posted by wavelength:

Originally posted by nemesise1977:

unfortunatly we will have to disagree here, in none of these refrences does Christ say he is God, but the Messiah or the Son of God. the forgivness of sins is that man can forgive ect, most of what is stated there is people inferring that Christ is God. Not Christ saying he is as I do not think he would make it cryptic for us to try and find. I do think you for giving me the refrences and hope you continue your journy in faith and realise that because I do not agree with the infrences made here that I doubt your faith because I do not and truly do value your opinion as I hope you do mine.

Justin, I hope that you did not feel attacked in any way, but you're right, we DO disagree on that ;)

I disagree with my Dad on many other things doctrinal (and the fact that he thinks James shouldn't be in the Bible), but I think this one is a bit too important to let go. I hope that you take in the reading that Kelli put up, and make a decision based on the scripture contained within. God bless.

No attack felt :) I actually have read these befor and there is a great deal of infrences made in them and the translation agrguements ect seem to much to be an excuse to keep in line. I may be wron but I accept Christ as the Son of God and my savior and the Holy Spirit as being from God and worship him so think no matter what I am not so far off base that He would condem me for beliving in Him and the teachings of his Son as I understand them.

eschelar

Canon EOS-7D

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02/01/2007 01:47:47 AM · #62

Originally posted by klstover:

Originally posted by eschelar:
Read Romans 5, specifically 12-17.

Jesus is there equated with Adam. He had to die because ADAM had sinned. Therefore, Jesus had to be equal to Adam. Adam certainly is not God. An equal sacrifice demands both that Jesus is equal to Adam (hence a man) and that he must have died. If he was part of a triune entity, then he is God. Who resurrected him then? If God resurrected Jesus and Jesus is God, then Jesus didn't really die and the sacrifice in his death is really like paying monopoly money for a ransom. Or more accurately, like paying a ransom with a bad cheque.

So the only just penalty in our society is an eye for an eye? We have penalties that can represent atonement without making something equal...

I'm too tired to make sense. Argh.

What I am trying to say is: He didn't make himself *equal* to Adam / equal to a man but instead became *like* us in some ways (physical form) so that he could physically die. The concept is that God hates sin so much (because he is perfect) that blood has to be shed when sin is committed (eg the animal sacrifices in the Old Testement). But the love that God had for us was enough that he himself would rather die than see us not be redeemed.

edit: I'm going to bed so I hope this does make sense... :)

No worries. I think that if we see this thread as a place to make suggestions for people to read things and make their own decisions, we can avoid arguing. I have no desire to argue with anyone here. I am glad of those who have spent time trying to find out the truth.

[/eschelar]

wavelength

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02/01/2007 01:50:05 AM · #63

Originally posted by nemesise1977:

heh, if it doesn't matter, why take the effort to make the denial of it?

I guess for me, the clencher is that the Sanhedrin ultimately tried, convicted, and crucified Jesus for claiming to be God. They apparently inferred the same things into his speech that I infer now. When Jesus said I AM, to them, they tore their clothes to hear it. Seems an extreme reaction if they didn't actually think he was saying that he was THE "I AM"

Good night guys, and thanks for the lively discussion. Later. :-)

02/01/2007 01:56:50 AM · #64

Originally posted by levyj413:

Christianity says it's monotheistic. But everything seems to be done in Jesus' name. If that's not worship, what is it? And if Jesus doesn't have all of God's powers, why pray to him instead of God? Also, how does the Holy Spirit fit in? Finally, how do you reconcile three deity-like beings with monotheism?

On both questions, I'm assuming I'm missing some easy reference, since I'm Jewish. But I'm genuinely asking in an attempt to learn about another religion, not trying to poke fun, so I look forward to your answers.

Hey, I've asked a lot of these questions myself over the years and it really wasn't 'til recently in my 51 years span that I have what I can live with for a religion.

I am a Unitarian Universalist.....that means one God, and universal salvation.

UUs believe in the inherent worth and dignity of all human beings regardless of age, race, sexual orientation, yadda, yadda.....I irreverently call us the "Liberal Democrat Wackos of the God Biz".

Catholicism, as it was explained to me by a very reasoned lay person, is Trinitarian.....Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

God is God, Jesus is the Son of God, and the Holy Spirit is the "essence" of the Christian way of life.

I'm sure that may be an oversimplification of it, but up 'til less than a year ago, nobody had ever seemed to be able to give me a clear understanding of how the Trinitarian system works, so this one works just fine for me.

Me, I'm happy being a UU 'cause we don't have any creeds or dogma to get hung up on.....and I like the idea that we are presumed to be good and decent 'til we prove otherwise, and then that's on you.

Ya does yer best to be a good and decent human being, help and love your fellow man, and try not to kill the earth.

I can live like that!

02/01/2007 02:00:56 AM · #65

I read every post (even Slippy's) and what it sounds like to me is mostly semantics. I don't believe it would be accurate to say they are "physically" separate, since only one of them was ever physical at all (far as I know) and I do believe they act as one and that is not possible for them to "disagree" with each other.

I liked the cherry pie reference, but the water reference seems to be most accurate in my mind. I might frame it in physical, human terms and use the body as a metaphor. Your right hand and your left hand behave in accordance with your mind - with the occasional exception of the involuntary slap in the forehead. ...but that's probably the devil. ;-)

02/01/2007 02:12:22 AM · #66

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I'm sure that may be an oversimplification of it, but up 'til less than a year ago, nobody had ever seemed to be able to give me a clear understanding of how the Trinitarian system works, so this one works just fine for me.

Me, I'm happy being a UU 'cause we don't have any creeds or dogma to get hung up on.....and I like the idea that we are presumed to be good and decent 'til we prove otherwise, and then that's on you.

Ya does yer best to be a good and decent human being, help and love your fellow man, and try not to kill the earth.

I can live like that!

I had a similar philosophy prior to my fervently reluctant Christianity. And it all sounds good and comforting until you realize that eternal truth may not turn out to be relative. It defied logic to me that there could me more than one truth. If you believe there can be, you are betting everything on it, if you believe there can't, but yours IS the truth, again you are gambling everything on it. I could never "pick" a religion because it sounded good or because it was in line with what I like to believe. If it hasn't convinced me beyond all doubt that it IS THE truth, I have no use for it. And yes, I am also gambling everything on it as well - however, Christ's message is one of grace, so although I strive to do good, it's ok if I fail occasionally. :)

02/01/2007 02:12:24 AM · #67

Originally posted by eschelar:

Yeah, I hope I don't come across as too pushy or preachy, because I totally agree with what you're saying here.
(so much for going to bed.. silly insomnia)

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02/01/2007 02:14:44 AM · #68

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Umm....the only thing is that, and this is probably guaranteed to annoy some folks though it is not intended to, some do not believe in Jesus as a diety.

In my case, I have doubts. Personally, I do believe that he lived as a man on earth and was the quintessential model for love of humanity, spirituality, and decency. And his teachings as recorded, which is a whole other can of worms, biblical interpretation, are certainly wonderful guidelines to live by.

Where I differ, and this has always been a sticking point is that God or man, I personally think that Jesus would have been mortified at his deification....I can just hear him saying, No, no, no! You're missing the point entirely, it's not about me, but what I've tried to teach you about how to live in harmony, love and understanding.".

What we have done to our species over the last two thousand years in his name and others is just plain sad and I know, man or God, that he is severely sad and disappointed in us.

Take care....be good to each other.

777STAN

Pentax K10D

02/01/2007 02:20:23 AM · #69

You know,...Jesus Himself admitted that eternal spiritual matters would never be easily understood by those who rely totally on meager human logic for spiritual comprehension.

Jesus told the Jewish teacher, Nicodemus, in John 3 that physical wind is a picture of the Holy Spirit's manner of relating to humans (i.e. unseen, but making a very real impact.)

Jesus told His disciples in Matthew 13 that word pictures were reserved for humanistic thinkers, but believers are given more because light begets light.

The first book of the Torah (Genesis) gives us humans a vivid Earthly picture of the Trinity's being. Genesis 2:24, "The man shall leave his father & mother, and cleave unto his wife, and they twain (i.e. 'two') shall be one flesh."

Here we see that one man & one woman are obviously seperate while being judicially united. In a perfect world the married couple would be one every way just as the LORD is who left marriage as His calling card.

God's calling card reads, "Three-As-One Construction,...Building World's Out of Nothing...Before The Other Guys Can 'Monkey' With The Process!" :)

Human wisdom is impotent to conceive of the type of unity that exists in the Godhead as a matter of His unique character. Philipians 2:13, "For it is God which worketh in you to will & to do of His good pleasure."

No, this doesn't mean that God takes from us our Free Will. It does mean that the more we know/understand/embrace Who God is...the more He gets "inside our head" to the point that Who is He is who believers are becoming with the exception of divinity, of course. :)

KevinRiggs

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02/01/2007 02:23:25 AM · #70

I'll post very little further as

wavelength &

klstover accurately depict my understanding of the theological constructs

levyj413 asked about. While I subscribe to a single entity who exists in three manifestations (ever read the Elric of Melnibone chronicles wherein the "hero" character has different facets or existences or presentations?) I'll concede quite quickly that there is not didactic passage of scripture that defines or delineates this theory. That isn't to say that this is just "out of someone's head" as wavelength's statement about the attempts to kill Jesus based on his claims at being YHWH have always seemed accurate and more than circumstantial to me.

I'm sure if you (levyj413 or anyone else) are looking for something to dig into in your downtime you've probably gotten quite a bit of fodder from previous posts in this thread but I'll toss in one more construct that has historically given Christians problems with the concept of Jesus' equality or equanimity or equivilency with our traditional understanding of Jehovah (or God, the Father as described previously in this thread).

In Philippians 2, Paul exhorts his target audience with the following passage:

Originally posted by Paul, the Apostle:

Phl 2:5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, (verse 6) who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped, (verse 7) but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, {and} being made in the likeness of men. (verse 8) Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.

I've underlined the part that has caused consternation in historical attempts at concensus on the deity of Jesus. Laying aside all the other text in this passage (I added it for context 'cause induction was drilled into me and context is the key for understanding), I intend to point to you that you can probably find volumes of rhetoric intended to "illuminate" the nature of Jesus deity (or lack depending on your interpretation and application) based on treatments of this passage alone. For me, given the relatively infrequent use of the Greek word "kenosis" in the Koine period, almost anything one comes up with from this passage would be suspect and should be highly informed by other passages that use more common language to discuss whether Jesus was or wasn't exactly the same God that the Torah, the Nevi'im and Ketuvim discuss as the One, True God.

Thanks for asking the questions and thanks to everyone who has responded. Nice to see a non-photography thread that can aspire to levels of our nature that we may tend to feel like hiding or protecting (not that I don't like all the cheese-based joking threads, too).

02/01/2007 02:30:46 AM · #71

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

For me, I have to pick a religion that's in line with what I believe or I'm not being true to my beliefs.

I *do* believe in the inherent worth and dignity of everyone, I believe in universal salvation because I want and need that hope and faith, and I know that there is a good and merciful God who loves me every time I look in my daughter's eyes.

I also believe that your God works for you in your way and as to your needs.....I accept, respect, and ancourage you in *your* search for truth and meaning in your life.

I have a problem with religions that tell me what and how to believe.....how can I wrap my head around that?

What I believe is what I believe and if anyone thinks that they can change that with their version of.....whatever, that's just wrong in my book. Why would anyone even want to? Where's the care and respect for me as another person who shares this short time that we have here on this planet?

So I do not accept what you would try to change in me, yet I do accept you and respect and embrace your faith and beliefs as being right for you.

That may sound ambiguous, but the strength of my faith is unshakeable now that after my lifelong journey I've learned to trust in it, and it has instilled in me a lot more acceptance, tolerance, and understanding of others because of it. And I got there with the love and support of people who believe, not the exact same things that I do, but the same way that I arrive at my faith.....from inside, with all my heart and soul.

I am a man who is at peace with himself and his God, and will do anything I can to love, help, and support the people I cross paths with on this earth. I have been graced with love and forgiveness for being the screwed up, faulty human that I am and that grace comes with the obligation that I just do my best to be a good and decent man.

That's my story, and I'm stickin' to it! Peace out!

02/01/2007 02:39:58 AM · #72

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

What we have done to our species over the last two thousand years in his name and others is just plain sad and I know, man or God, that he is severely sad and disappointed in us.

This is the only part of your statement that annoyed me (annoyed but not offended). I believe it is the biggest, most pervasive myth that the amount of negative things done in Christ's name in the past 2,000 years even come close to the amount of positive things - like 1:1,000,000 or more, if I had to guess. It's a myth perpetuated by people who fail to see, or refuse to see the positives. I never saw them until my eyes were opened - now it seems absurd to make characterizations like that. Absurd, but I can relate to the attitude and while I can give you plenty of examples, if you are not open to it, you still won't see it or agree - I know this from experience.

Not trying to be confrontational in any way - hope you don't take offense. Dontcha love how we tread so lightly around these topics. ;-) I love the discussion though, and hope I've contributed something to it. I'll back off for awhile.

02/01/2007 02:49:22 AM · #73

Originally posted by NikonJeb:

I have a problem with religions that tell me what and how to believe.....how can I wrap my head around that?

Ok - one last thing - for the record, I was not telling you what or how to believe and I don't even consider myself a spokesman for Christianity - in fact I am probably a bad example much of the time - I only speak from my experience for whatever it's worth to you. My apologies if I came off as sounding like I think you should believe what I believe. Again, just thought I'd give you some things to consider that were beneficial to me - even though I acknowledge you didn't ask for advice or indicate you were conflicted about what you believe. :) Peace.

02/01/2007 02:57:24 AM · #74

Originally posted by Art Roflmao:

Originally posted by NikonJeb:
What we have done to our species over the last two thousand years in his name and others is just plain sad and I know, man or God, that he is severely sad and disappointed in us.

This is the only part of your statement that annoyed me (annoyed but not offended). I believe it is the biggest, most pervasive myth that the amount of negative things done in Christ's name in the past 2,000 years even come close to the amount of positive things - like 1:1,000,000 or more, if I had to guess. It's a myth perpetuated by people who fail to see, or refuse to see the positives. I never saw them until my eyes were opened - now it seems absurd to make characterizations like that. Absurd, but I can relate to the attitude and while I can give you plenty of examples, if you are not open to it, you still won't see it or agree - I know this from experience.

Not trying to be confrontational in any way - hope you don't take offense. Dontcha love how we tread so lightly around these topics. ;-) I love the discussion though, and hope I've contributed something to it. I'll back off for awhile.

I don't take what you have to say as confrontational at all....I like the exchange.

That said, please don't think that I don't believe that there has been more good than bad done over these last couple thousand years....I woudn't have my faith if I thought that the bad was moreso than the good. I also believe that good will triumph over eveil in the long run, again, a belief that helps keep my faith and hope alive.

And you jumped to a little bit of a conclusion that I think that there isn't more good than bad; not at all true, I just bemoan all the lives that have been lost and all the havoc we have wreaked,in the name of what we know to be good through intolerance and fear.