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01/23/2007 11:02:24 PM · #26 |
Originally posted by Cam:
Show me some photos that DNMC and scored high...overall.
I dont think there are many, if any. |
Cam, I asked about individual voters who vote highly even when they themselves decide a photo doesn't meet the challenge, because I'm trying to understand how that fits into what I see as the point of DPC. I'm not suggesting that DNMC entries score highly overall.
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01/23/2007 11:04:00 PM · #27 |
there are different kinds of not meeting the challenge. there's the kind of not meeting the challenge so you can take some standard variety of shot that you're comfortable with. When I suspect this I vote very low. there's the defiant not meeting of the challenge, which is still a reaction to the challenge. I may not deduct at all. There's the re-envisioning of the challenge. I add points. There's forcing a good picture you took that week into the challenge with a title. I will deduct a couple of points. There's forcing a good picture you took that week into the challenge with a really clever title. I will add a point.
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01/23/2007 11:04:55 PM · #28 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I can't, fairly, say whether or not an entry meets a challenge topic. |
As the voter, you are the ONLY one who can fairly say whether something meets the challenge topic. If the photo doesn't convey the meaning to the observer, it failed in its goal of meeting the challenge. If the majority of voters "don't get it", then it scores low. If voters score it highly regardless of its interpretation, just because it's "pretty", it defeats the entire purpose of having challenges.
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01/23/2007 11:10:38 PM · #29 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I can't, fairly, say whether or not an entry meets a challenge topic. |
this isn't the topic at hand right now (for this thread). we are not debating any specific photo on whether it is DNMC or not, but rather, OP was saying that eventho some voter knew/agree that the photo was DNMC, he/she still votes it as if it meets the challenge. with that, i feel is not a healthy action for the site challenges.
crayon |
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01/23/2007 11:11:56 PM · #30 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
there are different kinds of not meeting the challenge. there's the kind of not meeting the challenge so you can take some standard variety of shot that you're comfortable with. When I suspect this I vote very low. there's the defiant not meeting of the challenge, which is still a reaction to the challenge. I may not deduct at all. There's the re-envisioning of the challenge. I add points. There's forcing a good picture you took that week into the challenge with a title. I will deduct a couple of points. There's forcing a good picture you took that week into the challenge with a really clever title. I will add a point. |
You know, Don, that's the best, most inclusive discussion of how someone votes DNMC images I've ever seen. :)
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01/23/2007 11:15:21 PM · #31 |
Having never produced a high scoring image, I feel that I am eminently qualified to comment on this subject!
I often have comments of DNMC, even when the entry clearly does meet the challenge. People will often use the easiest excuse they can think of to justify a low score because they have difficulty articulating their true opinion. Sometimes it is difficult to express what feature of an image is disturbing, you just don't like the picture. In that case, I try to analyze the image for technical merit and overlook the disturbing element(s). In all cases I try to make my comments relevant to the image and/or constructive. |
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01/23/2007 11:15:35 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
there are different kinds of not meeting the challenge. there's the kind of not meeting the challenge so you can take some standard variety of shot that you're comfortable with. When I suspect this I vote very low. there's the defiant not meeting of the challenge, which is still a reaction to the challenge. I may not deduct at all. There's the re-envisioning of the challenge. I add points. There's forcing a good picture you took that week into the challenge with a title. I will deduct a couple of points. There's forcing a good picture you took that week into the challenge with a really clever title. I will add a point. |
No offense, but I would much prefer Zeuzen's though provoking process to that which you advocate in this instance.
While it remains true that you are the ultimate arbiter in the voting process, it would seem that your decisions are based on sheer speculation as to the the intention of the author of the image being proffered.
Do correct me if I misinterpreted your comments.
Ray
Message edited by author 2007-01-23 23:16:27. |
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01/23/2007 11:19:22 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by chimericvisions:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I can't, fairly, say whether or not an entry meets a challenge topic. |
As the voter, you are the ONLY one who can fairly say whether something meets the challenge topic. If the photo doesn't convey the meaning to the observer, it failed in its goal of meeting the challenge. If the majority of voters "don't get it", then it scores low. If voters score it highly regardless of its interpretation, just because it's "pretty", it defeats the entire purpose of having challenges. |
If a photo doesn't convey "the meaning" to the viewer, is it not possible -and in the context of DPC 'culture'- is it not likely that the viewer failed it? If the majority is insensitive or ignorant about a thing, does it mean the work, the image is a failure?
The purpose of having challenges is fulfilled whether or not a majority (or a minority) gleefully hang the image together with the photographer from the first available tree or not. I can only repeat what I've already said about this in my previous post. |
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01/23/2007 11:24:41 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by crayon:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
I can't, fairly, say whether or not an entry meets a challenge topic. |
this isn't the topic at hand right now (for this thread). we are not debating any specific photo on whether it is DNMC or not, but rather, OP was saying that eventho some voter knew/agree that the photo was DNMC, he/she still votes it as if it meets the challenge. with that, i feel is not a healthy action for the site challenges.
crayon |
I feel it is relevant to show why it is that certain voters choose to rate an image based on the facts of the image rather than matters external to itself. I didn't refer a specific image. |
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01/23/2007 11:28:29 PM · #35 |
me thinks threads such as this one can be categorized as vote-swaying.
i think i'm getting too involved, and is feeling guilty about it.
i'm outta here :) |
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01/23/2007 11:31:05 PM · #36 |
Originally posted by crayon:
me thinks threads such as this one can be categorized as vote-swaying. |
Chuckle. I guess we'd better ban every single thread that uses the word "vote," then.
Anyway ... anyone else care to chime in?
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01/23/2007 11:33:24 PM · #37 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
While it remains true that you are the ultimate arbiter in the voting process, it would seem that your decisions are based on sheer speculation as to the the intention of the author of the image being proffered. |
Why yes, yes they are. For me, that's part of the excitement of voting. And I'm certainly not offended if you prefer Zeuszen's beautifully described approach.
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01/23/2007 11:35:04 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by crayon:
me thinks threads such as this one can be categorized as vote-swaying.
i think i'm getting too involved, and is feeling guilty about it.
i'm outta here :) |
I do hope that upon your return you will take the time to educate us as to how you arrived at that conclusion.
A question was asked, which generated input from a variety of players. Not once has anyone made mention of a specific challenge, image or member... and I am curious as to how the comments made could remotely sway anyone.
Ray |
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01/23/2007 11:41:39 PM · #39 |
You shoot, you submit, I vote... end of story!
People is different that is why this place is so special, trolls and anti-trolls just balance the force as someone stated :) at the end everybody will be assimilated, resistance is futile. |
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01/23/2007 11:43:19 PM · #40 |
What I have assumed (I've never received nor given such a comment) is that it is kind of a 'sympathy' or 'token' score.... The giver of such a comment would assume that all the other voters are voting low on the image, so their vote is accomplishing nothing more than conveying a sense of sympathy or some recognition on a good photo. Condolences, maybe?
Just my thought! |
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01/23/2007 11:52:59 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by levyj413:
...Why participate in a site that gives out assignments if you're going to vote highly regardless of whether the assignment is met? What sets our normal challenges apart from free studies with that voting approach?... |
I can't, fairly, say whether or not an entry meets a challenge topic. I may have missed or misunderstood something. I may lack a particular sense or mode of a thing, and the strength of the entry I'm voting on may well be its ambiguity.
Who am I to judge what I cannot understand? I don't even and ever try to understand images. I explore, appreciate, compare, measure and, sometimes, feel a photograph. I can, with some confidence, evaluate an entry by comparing it to other photographic images I've seen, studied or am other wise exposed to. If I consider it a fine work, it will have met definite criteria beyond a purely personal appeal, which is time-consuming and may take nearly as much effort as it may take a photographer to present a decent picture.
My critical approach to voting, commenting and comparing is serious business (it is to me). It is a method, really, which would be entirely incompatible with the kind of mind-set that requires to ignore or, worse, to condemn the very qualities I strive so hard to discover, appreciate and celebrate.
Topical restrictions, after all, benefit the entrants. It is a proven means to stimulate creativity for those who do not easily know how to take or make pictures without such stimuli. If a photographer has attempted to meet the topical requirements, he will know it. If he has not, well, it's his loss isn't it?
I, for one, refuse to superimpose any pre-conceived ideas of what may and what may not meet a challenge. It's hard enough to shed pre-conceptions. I need not reinforce something I consider an obstruction to the creative process and to the critical process, do I?
When I vote (comment/measure), I vote and comment with mind and heart, as an independent, appreciative participant. As such, my obligation is to my own conscience and diligence, and as I am in no one's employ, I will "hold in highest consideration" what I deem to be the most precious. And this, my friends, has more to do with an appreciation of a few photographs than with condemning these for appearing when and where they do. |
What he said. I can't understand why people give quality images a 1 vote because they think it's DNMC. It's rather arrogant in my opinion and often those same people end up being wrong. People act like you can win ribbons by just shoving anything into a challenge. Maybe when a photo of a lovely girl wins an insect challenge I'll change my mind but until then I'll give the photographers the benefit of the doubt.
ETA: This is not to say that I don't take off points for failing to connect well on the theme.
Message edited by author 2007-01-23 23:55:12. |
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01/24/2007 12:10:09 AM · #42 |
Originally posted by levyj413:
Originally posted by dr_timbo:
Possibly because they have different voting criteria than you do |
Of course they do. I'm asking why they vote that way. |
Sorry, I was a bit short with my first answer, but I think that it encompassed all that has come after. Everyone has different voting criteria and some people obviously give a lot more weight to meeting the challenge than others do. Yes this is a challenge site, and the challenge is important. But it is also a Photography site and I believe that rewarding good photography is just as important as meeting the challenge.
My voting criteria has changed considerably since I started coming here. Originally, while not a âDNMC Naziâ, would rarely give more that a 3 or 4 to a photo I thought wasnât in the spirit of the challenge.
But I had a change of heart several months ago. One of my photos had a few comments saying that it wasnât didnât meet the challenge â and I fumed â how did these people think they knew what was going on in my head when I decided to enter the photo?
When I entered the photo I had several valid reasons why I thought the photo fitted the challenge but just because it wasnât what some people had in mind they though that it should be voted lower. Thankfully lots of people âgot itâ and I was happy enough with the score but the thought occurred to me that if I KNEW that my photo fitted the challenge then perhaps some of the photos I had been voting down had been entered by photographers who also thought that their photo fitted the challenge.
So now I vote high for good photos and low for crap. If the photographer thought that their photo fitted the challenge then Iâm willing to take their word for it and vote for it on its artistic merits.
I've gone in the opposite direction to what I used to. Instead of subtracting points for not meeting the challenge, I now add extra points for blatantly meeting the challenge. I donât think a great photo deserves to only get a 3 or 4, but neither does it deserve to get a 10 unless it can convince me that it meets the challenge.
Message edited by author 2007-01-24 00:54:51.
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01/24/2007 12:10:54 AM · #43 |
| When I vote, I start out giving each photo 10 points and then taking points off for dnmc, poor quality etc. thus if a pic is dnmc but is still very nice it can still get 5 from me. However, if it sucks and dnmc, it gets a 1. |
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01/24/2007 12:11:51 AM · #44 |
I vote each image on its own merit. With the challenge description as my first priority. Yet, I have given some 6, 7 & even an 8 knowing it didn't meet the requirements. But I'm not as creative as some, so I given benefit of doubt to a good image.
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01/24/2007 02:19:08 AM · #45 |
edit: (image removed)
if you wish to know, it was linked and discussed from this thread
like i said, it appears that the "who care about challenge topics?" group won.
Message edited by author 2007-01-24 02:32:29. |
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01/24/2007 02:22:52 AM · #46 |
| I don't think I typically do that, but if I do it's simple based on quality and likability. |
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01/24/2007 02:24:41 AM · #47 |
Ok, adding to my post above - I was speaking of challenges with themes (ie exit, entrance) not technical challenges like Mmmmm motion panning for example. No streaks in the background? Then it doesn't meet the challenge - no questions asked. I'm not sure what I would have voted the example Crayon has posted but it sure wouldn't have been above 4.
eidt fro seplling
Message edited by author 2007-01-24 02:25:21.
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01/24/2007 02:44:33 AM · #48 |
Three words. Digital Photo CHALLENGE. This is about how your picture meets a given set of criteria. One of the criteria is the rules. The other is the challenge. If we wanted nothing but open challenges then there's a LOT of sites for that. I find that I learned absolutely nothing from those sites. This site makes me think creatively. It forces me to shoot a variety of topics and some that take me out of my comfort zone. When I get back to "familiar ground" (i.e. topics that I usually photograph) the new insight helps me a lot.
So to get to the point here? The challenge part of this site is important. What I am going to learn if I get nothing but "great shot" and "its okay". The technical part? You can learn that at a school. You can learn out of a book. (Okay...not entirely but anyways). The creative part? Can't be taught. THAT's what the challenges are for. THAT's why its so important to include a significant portion of your voting consideration towards this aspect. So that we can learn the creative part of the art of photography.
Alright...enough of the spiel.
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01/24/2007 03:44:40 AM · #49 |
This thread has been run so many times now it feels like one of those TV channels which loop the same five films for a whole week ;-)
For me the challenge description is only one of the criteria for marking/voting. If the shot is technically brilliant and has the smallest link to the challenge 'topic' then it ususally scores high from me. If its blatantly off topic and a technically lacking image then its going to bomb. I'd say the challenge topic usually weighs in at around 2 marks out of the 10 for me, if I can make a connection then its good enough. The technical aspects on the other hand need to be absolutely on the nail to get a good score, probably worth 6 or even 8 of the available marks.
Message edited by author 2007-01-24 03:45:27.
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01/24/2007 04:17:52 AM · #50 |
Originally posted by yanko:
What he said. I can't understand why people give quality images a 1 vote because they think it's DNMC. It's rather arrogant in my opinion and often those same people end up being wrong. |
By that sort of logic, any low or high vote could be considered "arrogant". After all, it is just an opinion like anything else.
I certainly don't just give an automatic vote based on any one particular thing, but, at the same time, a photo that doesn't meet the challenge is never going to get a great vote from me, because I consider meeting the challenge to be the point.
If you submit a fantastic wide-angle photo of a church into an abstract macro contest, you've not done what was being asked for, so, in my view, arrogant or not, there's no way that that deserves to be ranked highly amongst people who have actually tried to do what was asked for.
Message edited by author 2007-01-24 04:18:17. |
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