Do you struggle with white balance?

12/11/2006 12:07:20 PM · #51

Originally posted by Gordon:

I just think this is a good example of the problem that custom white balance or photoshop filtering doesn't fix easily, which could be fixed at the time of shooting (if I was worried about getting the colour right)

Remember - the window light here is just daylight. It shouldn't be 'blue' at all. There's nothing funky reflecting or anything like that. In fact, the column in the left of this shot is the same thing that is showing as 'blue' in the indoor shot. It is a pretty much neutral stone grey colour.

Definitely a time when gelling the window would have made this shot a lot easier to correct.

12/11/2006 12:08:31 PM · #52

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Definitely a time when gelling the window would have made this shot a lot easier to correct.

Gelling the other light sources is probably a bit easier :)

12/11/2006 12:10:14 PM · #53

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Definitely a time when gelling the window would have made this shot a lot easier to correct.

Gelling the other light sources is probably a bit easier :)

Or using a strobe to light the model :-)

12/11/2006 12:12:12 PM · #54

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Or using a strobe to light the model :-)

I should probably have gone to Australia with more than a 50mm lens and a gold reflector, in retrospect. A couple of assistants and a lighting crew at least.

I actually quite like the cold/warm relationship in this simple grab shot anyway :)

12/11/2006 12:16:49 PM · #55

Originally posted by Gordon:

I should probably have gone to Australia with more than a 50mm lens and a gold reflector, in retrospect. A couple of assistants and a lighting crew at least.

LMAO Yeah, you definitely should have at least taken 3 or 4 assistants :-) Hey, I would have volunteered (for free expenses paid, ofcourse).

Originally posted by Gordon:

I actually quite like the cold/warm relationship in this simple grab shot anyway :)

This sort of WB mismatch doesn't bother me at all. It really adds to the shot IMO.

12/11/2006 12:19:11 PM · #56

a real world example maybe.

a wedding reception - in a large tent - starting in overcast daylight fading to dark - cool spot lights on the dance floor - warm incandescent bulbs above - multi color LED christmas lights all around -need to use a flash - tent ceiling ranges from 8' at edges to 20+ feet at peak - grass for flooring - shooting with two cameras and an assistant.

goals:
nice candids of people having fun
drag the shutter for dramtic motion blurred fun photos

best approach shooting color digital?

12/11/2006 12:21:44 PM · #57

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

LMAO Yeah, you definitely should have at least taken 3 or 4 assistants :-) Hey, I would have volunteered (for free expenses paid, ofcourse).

Well, I'm sort of lying. I had one assistant to hold the reflector. But I don't call her that, or she hits me.

Originally posted by Gordon:

I actually quite like the cold/warm relationship in this simple grab shot anyway :)

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

This sort of WB mismatch doesn't bother me at all. It really adds to the shot IMO.

Yup, I liked the 'warm inside' 'cold outside' sort of mood it creates. That's also quite commonly used for architectural shots, where tungsten balance makes the window light look really blue, particularly if you shoot around twilight so they don't blow out. Makes people feel warm and cozy indoors in the 'warm' scene.

But to the original point, I don't believe there is a custom white balance or good place to put the paper to take a custom white balance to fix this up front. Custom white balance is useful but it took me a while to grasp the fact that lights are different colours and custom white balance only works for one colour at a time. I'm just slow on the uptake ;) After paying enough attention I've found I can actually start to see the colour temp of lights, at least in these sorts of mixed situations - again your eye does auto white balancing, but only for one colour at a time.

Where I find it most visible is on the edges of window shutters, or in the shadow of window shutters, where you have indoor tungsten light on one side and daylight from the other - you can see the blue/orange split with your eye, once you start trying to look for it.

12/11/2006 12:21:47 PM · #58

Originally posted by soup:

best approach shooting color digital?

RAW :-)

I'm going to expand on that:

1) Shooting weddings it is easy to find a white point in almost every photo to set WB to in conversion.

2) If you set the WB to the bride's dress, she'll always be happy :-)

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 12:24:41.

12/11/2006 12:22:53 PM · #59

;}

12/11/2006 12:23:58 PM · #60

set WB to FLASH... ;}

12/11/2006 12:27:22 PM · #61

Originally posted by soup:

Weddings are a bitch ;) But let's trying thinking this through and no doubt someone will point out where I went horribly wrong:

RAW will help you recover from mistakes later - but as we've seen, doesn't help you fixed mixed colour temps.

If you are shooting in the tent:
some assumptions. Late overcast daylight to dark - so you can almost ignore the outdoor light colour. You are in a tent. It is getting dark. So that isn't the strongest source.

Multi-coloured LED xmas lights. You can probably assume two things about these: One, they aren't providing much light. Two, you actually want any colours from those to look like the actual colours. So again, you can mostly ignore them.

The main light sources you have, particularly if you are dragging the shutter, are going to be the warm tungsten/ incandescent light sources.

Cool dance floor lighting you can probably get away with 'funky' colours from too.

So you really need to balance your flash to the warmer lights, with something like an orange gel. Then your dragged shutter shots will have flash and ambient that mixes correctly.

Set the white balance to tungsten. Shoot RAW if you like. Test all this out ahead of time as I'm just talking out loud. Haven't tried this out in a real wedding situation. Perhaps some of the wedding pros can explain how they deal with this sort of mixed light too.

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 12:29:07.

12/11/2006 12:27:41 PM · #62

Originally posted by soup:

set WB to FLASH... ;}

Or that ;-)

12/11/2006 12:28:07 PM · #63

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

2) If you set the WB to the bride's dress, she'll always be happy :-)

True that - that's the maxim for all good (successful) wedding photography. Make the bride look good. Who's that guy that keeps hanging around her ?

12/11/2006 12:30:10 PM · #64

I've always said I'm shooting my own wedding if I get married again. Stand-in grooms are easy to find :-) I can PS my head in later.

12/11/2006 12:34:36 PM · #65

Originally posted by Gordon:

So you really need to balance your flash to the warmer lights, with something like an orange gel. Then your dragged shutter shots will have flash and ambient that mixes correctly.

That is the best way to do it if you don't like mixed lighting look. I personally like the warm atmosphere caused by tungsten ambient light when dragging the shutter.

I'd be more likely to gel in florescent ambient light... green looks icky.

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 12:35:40.

12/11/2006 12:35:23 PM · #66

this is what i do. but i am going to look into these color correcting super cheap gels you mention.

set WB to FLASH - shoot in RAW

you use the flash to light the subject - photos of people mainly here.
you want the subject to be color correct. the flash will light the subject and the camera will color temp correct for the flash. the rest of mixed lighting should cast their colors around the subject and be a non-issue. and after dark alot of the back drop will be leaning toward black anyway.

the example earlier sort of follows this idea. correct the color for the subject - and let the rest do as it may.

12/11/2006 12:43:39 PM · #67

Originally posted by soup:

this is what i do. but i am going to look into these color correcting super cheap gels you mention.

So that example with an orange gelled flash would have the people looking the same, but the background and lights would lose the orange cast that they have - least that's the concept.

In any case where you are using flash as the main subject illumination, the white balance should balance that flash (or in general, your white balance should mostly be set for the main source of illumination)

But if you gel the flash, then you set the white balance correctly for the flash - you still get the right subject colour, but the ambient gets balanced more effectively.

Again - there's still a further step of doing it for creative or mood purposes, over and above simple correction.

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 12:47:11.

12/11/2006 12:44:43 PM · #68

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

True. There's a big difference between 'correcting' colour casts and using them for a creative purpose. But it all starts with being aware of them and not just expecting a custom white balance to be able to fix it all. I wish it hadn't taken so long for me to understand that.

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 12:47:39.

12/11/2006 12:59:52 PM · #69

i was a big custom WB user for awhile. and still do in the studio sometimes, but in a situation where the subjects are moving and/or the lighting is changing it doesn't really work - or to make it work requires too much time and thought. better off to balance the color for the subject and main light source, and go from there.

outdoors at sunset - portrait - with fill flash - WB = cloudy or sun&shade - capture the warm glow.

outdoors at sunset - portrait - with flash as main light - WB = flash - capture proper skin tones.

the gels i think would be more suitable for a controlled enviroment than on the fly as above - though i suppose there are exceptions.

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 13:04:22.

12/11/2006 01:07:32 PM · #70

how about a tool like a light meter that measures color temp. aim and get the average color temp reading then dial that in on the camera...

then use it in 'spot' mode

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 13:08:43.

12/11/2006 01:10:55 PM · #71

Originally posted by soup:

how about a tool like a light meter that measures color temp. aim and get the average color temp reading then dial that in on the camera...
then use it in 'spot' mode

Same problem in mixed light sources though. If one light source is red and the other is blue, you can either fix one, or the other. The one you fix will look white, the other will go either more blue or more red.

There just isn't one global adjustment that works if you have mixed light.

Otherwise in single or strong main light sources, people use exactly the sort of tool you just described. It's called a color temperature meter (which is effectively what you are doing with a white card and custom white balance in the camera) or an expo disk. E.g., a Gossen Color-Pro 3F - Digital Ambient Incident and Incident Flash Color Temperature Meter from BHPhoto ($1200 !)

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 13:13:38.

Sigma 24-70mm f/2.8 EX Aspherical DF for Canon

12/11/2006 01:11:17 PM · #72

Custom WB (or shooting RAW and fixing the WB in conversion) to fix WB issues in mixed lighting... It just won't happen. It can get rid of most of the color casts on the subject, but the real issue isn't with the subject (most of the time).

Anyone that has to work in mixed light atmospheres (wedding photogs for example) need to understand relationships between light sources and a) correct them or b) use them creatively.

You can't go through a wedding chapel and gel all the lights (although I've shot at a few places where I desperately wished I could), so you make compromises.

Here are your options:
1) Deal with WB mismatches in Phtoshop... troublesome and time consuming.
2) Use the ambient lighting to create mood, works better in tungsten lighting than florescent.
3) Gel you flash to match the majority of ambient lighting (as I mentioned with gelling for florescent lighting).
4) Shoot for B&W :-)

Ther is this one place locally that I've shot at before (and have to shoot at again in February) that is a lighting nightmare. It has very low level tungsten lighting, some window lighting during the day and these freaky blue, very directional spot lights pointed down. And it has very high wood cielings and off-white walls (so bouncing the flash is both ieffieient and causes other color cast issues).

This place is a nightmare in both metering and WB.

RAW saves my butt in this place. I'll shoot for FLASH WB and do minor tweaks in RAW.

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 13:14:43.

hankk

Canon EOS-5D

12/11/2006 01:14:49 PM · #73

Originally posted by soup:

how about a tool like a light meter that measures color temp. aim and get the average color temp reading then dial that in on the camera...

then use it in 'spot' mode

There is one, its over $1,000.

I wish Canon would tell you the way to gel your flash once you do AWB. Can't be that hard to display "1/2 CTO + 1/2 CTG" or whatever the standard filter designations are.

Message edited by author 2006-12-11 13:15:09.

12/11/2006 01:15:49 PM · #74

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

RAW saves my butt in this place. I'll shoot for FLASH WB and do minor tweaks in RAW.

That's basically the same as you said for shooting with film too. Shoot daylight balanced (basically what flash WB is) and have the lab save it ;)