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10/05/2006 01:16:15 AM · #51 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
this just triggered a rehash of an old issue. |
It sure did. Maybe mk's FAQ should tackle these too. |
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10/05/2006 02:11:03 AM · #52 |
Originally posted by stdavidson:
Personally, I find the supposition that voters are so shallow that they cannot be objective because they've seen or read discussions about a picture that was intended for a challenge during voting insulting. I give voters more credit than that. |
Discussions do normally persuade my opinion on photo's in challenges, but your comment has persuaded me otherwise.....JOKE.
Just trying to lighten the mood.
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10/05/2006 10:10:30 AM · #53 |
GeneralE,
Outtakes and "Others", too.
I totally agree with your recent comments. But if a film, video, or still shot was not produced or submitted (on time), there is nothing to "outtake" from. They may just as well be "studies" or practices.
That's why I suggested, for furthur clarification the rule, by also explicitly mentioning those types of photos. Photos that are not taken-out of any submission. They just plain DNMD, "Did Not Meet Deadline".
Meriam Webster:
2 : something that is taken out: as a : a take that is not used in an edited version of a film or videotape |
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10/05/2006 11:28:49 AM · #54 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Yes, it should be called "out-takes or alternates."
The issue is not just one of vote influencing, it is one of fairness to the entries. We have a call for people to post a certain type of photo, with a deadline.
If you miss that and post what you would have entered, you are (literally, in the case of this thread) saying "don't look at the actual entries which were submitted on time, look at me instead!"
If you've already entered, and post an "out-take" then you are essentially asking for everyone to look at your two entries, when everyone else limits themselves to one.
The key is to let people concentrate on the entries during the voting period, without selfishly calling attention to your photo -- I don't get to specify which is mine, so why should anyone else.
After the voting, post away; that's the time when the question "how would my picture have done" can be answered, in the context of having some actual results. To ask it during the voting is a meaningless distraction, which we prohibited after much earlier discussion closely resembling this thread. |
Then it sounds like the real issue is one of consuming voters time as being unfair. I think such should be stated as it is the only valid reason I see. And most of the people who comment when this is done give tons of non-valid points. Which causes people not to understand the issue.
The issue is, there are a lot of photos entered in a challenge. It is unfair to distract voters from reviewing entries that were submitted in a timely fashion. This is a valid consideration. But not the one usually given as an explanation. Therefore it leads to great confusion and bruised shoulders.
Message edited by author 2006-10-05 11:30:06. |
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10/05/2006 11:43:49 AM · #55 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
... Then it sounds like the real issue is one of consuming voters time as being unfair. I think such should be stated as it is the only valid reason I see. ... |
Posting an image that was stated as "should have been" submitted to a challenge isn't a good idea while that challenge is active. The person should wait until the challenge has finished.
I've seen it too many times when conversations (threads) get started while a challenge is active and strong opinions get posted that can influence others' perception of what the challenge theme/content should be or not be.
For example - You have a shot of a grasshopper in a challenge with the theme of 'Green'. Someone posts an image in a forum and says I was too late - missed the deadline, how would this have done? Someone (innocently) makes a comment about how grasshoppers are too easy for this challenge and wouldn't have voted it very high. Well one thing leads to another and before you know it you have a full blown conversation knocking the use of bugs (grasshoppers, praying mantis, etc...in particular) for a 'Green' challenge. Now your grasshopper (insert any green bug here) shot starts tanking real fast after this "didn't meet the deadline" thread gathers steam. How would you feel?
It's more than consuming voters' time IMO. |
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10/05/2006 12:18:18 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
For example - You have a shot of a grasshopper in a challenge with the theme of 'Green'. Someone posts an image in a forum and says I was too late - missed the deadline, how would this have done? Someone (innocently) makes a comment about how grasshoppers are too easy for this challenge and wouldn't have voted it very high. Well one thing leads to another and before you know it you have a full blown conversation knocking the use of bugs (grasshoppers, praying mantis, etc...in particular) for a 'Green' challenge. Now your grasshopper (insert any green bug here) shot starts tanking real fast after this "didn't meet the deadline" thread gathers steam. How would you feel?
It's more than consuming voters' time IMO. |
DISMISSED
(Sorry, I see this as uber-lame argument and a deflection of the real issue. It's been stated by quite a few that we do not accept the validity of above argument and see no difference between that and the posting of examples, the discussion of previous incarnations of similar challenges, etc.
The fact that in the end. Most who like grasshoppers still vote high. And most who do not. Still vote lower. And very little changes.
In fact, I'd go so far as to say that such discussions are greatly beneficial. And the only times I've found issues regarding it which has affected my entry in voting or how I voted on entries was when I realized that I had mis-read a challenge or lacked the knowledge of a technical method.
(ie: there was a challenge called "Deep DOF". In truth, many new people, myself included had this confused with shallow DOF. Did it affect voting. Darn right...)
Had I not participated in said discussion I'd have likely been voting all the Shallow DOF higher and the valid entries lower. It's a good thing that I was, thru the discussion and talk of examples, able to learn the proper meaning of said technical term.
As for personal tastes. Hey, one can say "there are too many flowers" and "too many waterfalls". That does not essentially equate to low votes. Those who have not seen too many will vote according to their appeal. Those who've seen too many will have lesser appeal. Yes, I think often there are too many flowers and waterfalls. Yes, I often get board with them. Where I have a base score of 5 for most entries. A flower or waterfall will often score a 4. This is cause they lose a point for lack of originality. That said, this does not prevent me from scoring some flower and waterfall entries exceptionally high because they were exceptional takes on those entries.
So I, and many others do not have any issue and in fact feel strongly enough to oppose, counter-point, and strive against this thought. As many of us find it beneficial.
The only point of reason I've seen that I personally view as valid is the one I posted in regards to earlier that addressed the issue of distracting voters from those who had in fact submitted their entries in a timely fashion. And that to me is valid.
So if you want me not to post outakes you better go with that. Because, I see no validity in the other points nor do others. And I see no rule explicit in this regard. People posting the rule that anything done to affect voting will result in being banned from DPC. Are gravely taking that rule out of context and mis-applying it. Said rule is regarding deliberate vote manipulation. Second, those who feel as I do, do not believe that your example indeed affects voting except in the potential to clarify an understanding in defining meanings. And THAT is a GOOD THING! |
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10/05/2006 12:31:49 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
... And I see no rule explicit in this regard. ... |
Forum Rules
"Please do not discuss specific challenge entries or outtakes until voting has ended. Doing so can affect voting and commenting, so please save these discussions for after the end of the voting period. Please report any posts discussing these, and do not reply to them. Outtake threads posted early will be removed."
While the rule exists, it should be enforced. Otherwise, it should be removed. That argument has gone back and forth for some time now.
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10/05/2006 12:39:02 PM · #58 |
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10/05/2006 12:44:30 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
I don't particularly agree or disagree with the "out-takes rule", but it is a rule. A poll was taken and it seems this is what DPC wanted. So, there ya have it :-)
Although D&L have every right to make this site a monarchy, they do well listening to the users and running this place more like a democracy. |
Well, actually - since they took the poll and the rule follows what the VAST majority of people here at DPC want - isn't that the very definition of democracy?
Personally, I think it's a great rule. Not only do I think it's unfair that some people are such attention seekers that they need to get feedback on their pictures instead of entering in the challenge and taking their hard knocks or lack or comments like the others; I also know from experience that someone posting a picture very similar to yours in the challenge CAN affect how people vote on your picture.
I had a picture of a Redwing Blackbird sitting on some cattails in one challange quite some time ago - it wasn't doing too badly. Another person posted a picture (not even a challenge outtake) just asking what sort of bird it was sitting on the cattail. The picture was SO like mine that everyone who looked at it assumed that it was taken by the same person who entered the picture in the challenge. The votes on my picture were lower after that and some people even left comments that they thought it was the person who posted the picture in the threads for comment.
For the life of me, I don't know why people get so wound up over this rule. A poll was taken and the VAST majority of people wanted this. It amazes me that some people can't see how incredibly rude it is when most people have worked hard on their challenge shots and entered them in a timely manner, for them to jump into the threads and say LOOK AT ME, LOOK AT ME - why, should you, if you haven't managed to enter a challenge on time, get MORE attention than people who do. I guess some people have an amazing sense of entitlement.
Well, that's my opinion anyway - I don't usually get up on a soapbox but I'm so tired of people knocking this rule and saying it doesn't matter. It DOES. It matters from the point of fairness and also the point of influencing votes. Even though you think you might be hard minded enough that YOU won't be influenced by seeing outtakes - most likely you should think again.
Message edited by author 2006-10-05 18:58:42. |
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10/05/2006 01:23:01 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by Sammie:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
I don't particularly agree or disagree with the "out-takes rule", but it is a rule. A poll was taken and it seems this is what DPC wanted. So, there ya have it :-)
Although D&L have every right to make this site a monarchy, they do well listening to the users and running this place more like a democracy. |
Well, actually - since they took the poll and the rule follows what the VAST majority of people here at DPC want - isn't that the very definition of democracy?
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Actually, no. A democracy is not only majority rule, but also the protection of the minority voice. The second part is more important than the first. |
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10/05/2006 01:30:09 PM · #61 |
Such a shame people have to tip-toe around, worrying that they didn't seek legal counsel before posting something or discussing something. Not pointing any fingers here, but it never seems to fail that no matter what, somebody's gonna' get pissed-off about something around here.
The title could have easily been changed on her behalf or the thread moved over to the individual photograph forum and mention of it beeing late would have been fine.
Had I missed the deadline with a great shot, (like I can take one anymore - Ha!) I may have, in the heat of the moment of frustration, done exactly the same as Blue Moon did. It's not like there are tens of thousands of dollars at stake in the challenges here.
Before pointing a loaded shotgun at someone for being human, ask yourself if you have even made a mistake here or anywhere else and remember what it felt like to be looking down a few barrels.
ugh. |
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10/05/2006 02:00:38 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Such a shame people have to tip-toe around, worrying that they didn't seek legal counsel before posting something or discussing something. Not pointing any fingers here, but it never seems to fail that no matter what, somebody's gonna' get pissed-off about something around here.
The title could have easily been changed on her behalf or the thread moved over to the individual photograph forum and mention of it beeing late would have been fine.
Had I missed the deadline with a great shot, (like I can take one anymore - Ha!) I may have, in the heat of the moment of frustration, done exactly the same as Blue Moon did. It's not like there are tens of thousands of dollars at stake in the challenges here.
Before pointing a loaded shotgun at someone for being human, ask yourself if you have even made a mistake here or anywhere else and remember what it felt like to be looking down a few barrels.
ugh. |
Brad, there are many brands of coffee that offer a decaf product that is just as tasty as the regular coffee.
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10/05/2006 02:12:46 PM · #63 |
Wan't offered as a tongue-in-cheek or humorous opinion.
Those that have been around here a number of years know EXACTLY what I am saying.
Many good & inspirational photographers & helpful members have left this site because of it all. |
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10/05/2006 02:37:57 PM · #64 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Wan't offered as a tongue-in-cheek or humorous opinion.
Those that have been around here a number of years know EXACTLY what I am saying.
Many good & inspirational photographers & helpful members have left this site because of it all. |
I know and I agree for the most part. Feeble attempt on my part to lighten things up a little. I'll go back to hitting the update button now.
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10/05/2006 03:02:27 PM · #65 |
A great example how words without tone, inflection & body language can be read wrong.
Wanna' share your update button? I don't have one. *sniff*
(jk on the sniff - was the horseradish) |
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10/05/2006 06:40:30 PM · #66 |
This thread is amzing, with the different opinions on show and tell of an image.
If you have entered a challenge go with the natural flow of voting, and try to understand why some see your image as a 10, and others as a 1.
If you have not entered the challenge, butt out and let those that have score fairly within the system.
And your image that missed the deadline show after the challenge has finnished, and then ask how do you think this would have gone.
IMO this is a great challenge site, so let the challenges run on thier merit for all.
Message edited by author 2006-10-05 18:43:20.
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10/06/2006 12:48:28 PM · #67 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by theSaj:
... And I see no rule explicit in this regard. ... |
Forum Rules
"Please do not discuss specific challenge entries or outtakes until voting has ended. Doing so can affect voting and commenting, so please save these discussions for after the end of the voting period. Please report any posts discussing these, and do not reply to them. Outtake threads posted early will be removed."
While the rule exists, it should be enforced. Otherwise, it should be removed. That argument has gone back and forth for some time now. |
Ah, but as some have said, repeatedly. These are neither entries. Nor outtakes (as entries were not made). |
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10/06/2006 12:51:09 PM · #68 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Ah, but as some have said, repeatedly. These are neither entries. Nor outtakes (as entries were not made). |
The english language is a beautiful thing. :D |
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10/06/2006 12:52:17 PM · #69 |
Originally posted by scarbrd:
Brad, there are many brands of coffee that offer a decaf product that is just as tasty as the regular coffee. |
2 Thessalonians chapter 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:" |
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