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08/17/2006 10:38:58 PM · #101 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by Fromac:
You wanna talk about expensive repairs...I drive an Audi A4! |
Saw this car while driving home from L.A. last Tuesday ... : )
AUDI 2U2
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Cute! |
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08/17/2006 10:44:38 PM · #102 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Something that has NOT been mentioned in the whole preventive maintenance sceanrio is resale value. Do you want to buy a used car that has had all it's preventive maintenance done or one that has no real service history? Selling a vehicle? One that has a good set of service history records will sell faster and at a higher price.
Reliability, tow bills, lost work from breakdowns, etc. all need to be factored into the whole picture.
Makes absolutely no sense to not maintain a car.
I generally don't give customers choices/menu items a la carte, or what brands to use in the repair process. They are not eductated enough to know what really is best, as it is not their area of expertise, but rather mine. |
Brad I agree with most of what you say but I like to get my servicing done as the manufacturer recommends - but by my local independent mechanic. I'm not sure whether that was what you were recommending or if you were suggesting more work should be done. e.g more frequent fluid changes or the mini service half way in between the ones recommended by the manufacturer. Personally I believe that this extra servicing that many mechanics recommend is a waste of money unless the vehicle is being used in unusually harsh conditions.
As I said I used to work for a car dealer. Inspection of the service history consisted of looking in the service book - if it was stamped good, if not the car was considered to have no service history... a pile of reciepts is a PITA as you have to read them and see what was and was not done. A stamped book tells you that the mechanic (claims) he has done the work recommended by the manufacturer. No stamps was seen as shortcuts being taken, non qualified mechanic etc...
There was a brief test drive ('round the block) to identify any major problems. That was it for mechanicals! Only after the car was traded in would the mechanics assess it and decide whether too keep the vehicle or wholesale it. The biggest factor was cosmetic - did the car look good inside and out - thats what buyers pay more for!
If you sell your car privately - I would think most people are more concerned with if the basic stuff was done on time than how often you changed the fluid in the radiator. |
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08/17/2006 10:46:31 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
Hey thanks for the info Brad. That gives me something solid to look at and judge what's worth it and what isn't.
The inspection part is funny though. In New York at least, the yearly car inspection cost $10. Basically it's a chance for the mechanic to find something to do which he can earn money at. I would think most mechanics would want to do that for free in anticipation of possible business. |
Thats a totally different inspection though. Read about it here:
Here |
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08/17/2006 10:46:44 PM · #104 |
I got am estimate for $5000 for routine maintenance on my mercedes. I sold it instead for 5 grand less than book.....
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08/17/2006 10:49:40 PM · #105 |
Originally posted by BradP:
The manufacturer's recommended maintenance MUST BE done in order to maintain the conditions of a lease agreement, manufacturer's warranty and/or extended warranty. Just needs to be done, on time, using the right parts, right fluids, and documented. Using 10W-40 oil in a vehicle calling for 5W-20 can void a warranty - and can get VERY expensive. |
I am not a mechanic Brad, but perhaps you could shed some light on this article Do I really need to use 5W-20 oil?
I am not trying to be difficult, but rather want to make certain I understand the rules.
Ray |
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08/17/2006 10:54:53 PM · #106 |
oops double post
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 22:57:04. |
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08/17/2006 11:00:22 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by RayEthier:
Originally posted by BradP:
The manufacturer's recommended maintenance MUST BE done in order to maintain the conditions of a lease agreement, manufacturer's warranty and/or extended warranty. Just needs to be done, on time, using the right parts, right fluids, and documented. Using 10W-40 oil in a vehicle calling for 5W-20 can void a warranty - and can get VERY expensive. |
I am not a mechanic Brad, but perhaps you could shed some light on this article Do I really need to use 5W-20 oil?
I am not trying to be difficult, but rather want to make certain I understand the rules.
Ray |
Actually you raise a good point Ray, thats a far obscure site as far as the actual details, and completely misleading. No Manufactures use the API rating for grading oil alone. Thanks for pointing that site out, I will point that out to several people in the know, because thats very misleading and wrong... |
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08/17/2006 11:18:49 PM · #108 |
It's very simple.
You buy a car that the manufacturer requires 5W-20 per the climate you live in. Your mechanic says Nah - 10W-30/40 will be fine and do all your oil & filter changes using that. Roll forward 30,000 miles and you are at the dealer for an engine knock on start up. The manufacturer's waranty is still in effect, no problem, and the dealer asks to see your service records. It is dicovered that 10W-30 has been used up until this point, at which point, the manufacturer denies the warranty claim, as the engine has not been maintained per the manufacturer's criteria. At this point you now have the right to take your vehicle back to the mechanic for repairs, at his cost, for not using the proper lubricant.
The Federal Magnusson-Moss Act does come under effect in this, but from a standpoint that you, the consumer, cannot be strong-armed into having to take your car to the dealer to maintain the waranty, and also covers repeated failures, during the time of the warranty that have not been properly repaired (Lemon Law).
If you think I'm blowing smoke on a shop being responsible to use the proper parts and lubricants, guess again - this is MY world. If the consumer does the maintenance, documents it properly in order to maintain the terms & conditions of the warranty (which consumers can do btw), but uses the wrong lubricants, and a failure occurs, the consumer is out of luck.
In layman's terms, the design engineers are smarter than me, mechanics, shop owners and consumers regarding what is needed for a particular vehicle. Best to follow their guidelines. After all, they have done the research and development over years & years and at tremendous costs, and they DO know best.
Be careful of armchair lawyers and commercial nonsense you may read.
By the way, a 5W-20 will get to moving parts quicker on a start-up, in the close tolerance engines that require it, than 5W-30 and 10W-anything. That means less wear on start up, and longer engine life.
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 23:19:40. |
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08/17/2006 11:43:04 PM · #109 |
I was charged $550 for my 30,000 mile service for my Subaru 2003..so don't feel bad. :-) That was done at the Subaru dealers.
$120 was for parts and the rest was labour, what a rip off!!!!
The worst thing was, 2 weeks after that, I gained a flat tyre driving along the highway, thanks to a passing motorist who warned me, as it happend very quickly. As it happens, a piece of metal had pierced the tyre, it was near some construction on the highway.
There went another $500 to replace all the tyres..they were getting a bit worn anyway. Next is brake pads I think. OH the joys of owning a car but I haven't had any problems otherwise with my Subaru Forester.
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 23:48:16. |
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08/17/2006 11:46:17 PM · #110 |
Aw, you guys, just pay the money.
You are paying for expertise, just like people who hire photographers to take better pix than they could do on their own.
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08/17/2006 11:47:04 PM · #111 |
Originally posted by heatherd:
I was charged $550 for my 30,000 mile service for my Subaru 2003..so don't feel bad. :-)
$120 was for parts and the rest was labour, what a rip off!!!! |
What Subaru model was it? Because thats a good deal on alot of them. |
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08/17/2006 11:48:46 PM · #112 |
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08/17/2006 11:50:10 PM · #113 |
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08/17/2006 11:51:20 PM · #114 |
| I was thinking the same thing :) |
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08/17/2006 11:51:28 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
Engine size? |
Opps forget it, in 03 was only a 2.5L
The book time shows 4.6 hours my shop labor rate is $96 an hour, so that $441.60 in labor
Message edited by author 2006-08-17 23:55:12. |
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08/18/2006 12:23:31 AM · #116 |
To be perfectly honest, if someone came in for a service such as this, and they claimed it was 'rape' for the prices. They would be turned away, I have little time for these 'walmart' type customers im not playing lets make a deal with the safety of your car. Your getting bounced to the road, because my time, training, knowledge, tooling, info systems is just not worth it to have you as a customer. Same as the people that want a $19.95 J.C. Penny photography session, you get what you pay for.
Message edited by author 2006-08-18 00:25:36. |
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08/18/2006 12:44:00 AM · #117 |
Originally posted by MQuinn:
To be perfectly honest, if someone came in for a service such as this, and they claimed it was 'rape' for the prices. They would be turned away, I have little time for these 'walmart' type customers im not playing lets make a deal with the safety of your car. Your getting bounced to the road, because my time, training, knowledge, tooling, info systems is just not worth it to have you as a customer. Same as the people that want a $19.95 J.C. Penny photography session, you get what you pay for. |
The problem with the analogy is you know exactly what you are getting with the 19.95 JC penny sale. You see the high schooler behind the camera, you see the shots they took, you know up front how much it's gonna cost and what the pictures are gonna look like.
The reason people fear and hate mechanics is it's all a big black box. People don't understand their cars, people don't see the mechanic at work. It could be a very reasonable price, it could be complete highway robbery. One just never really knows. Combine it with enough shoddy mechanics out there that everybody has their own personal screw story or at least knows someone else with a story, and now you really get people hyperventilating.
I don't mind paying for quality and service at all. I had an entertainment center custom built by a local carpenter rather than get something from a furniture store because I knew exactly what i was getting and didn't have to worry about the quality. I wish I could find a mechanic where I get that feel, but I haven't yet. (at least not here where I currently live) |
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08/18/2006 12:51:06 AM · #118 |
Brad -- You said Originally posted by BradP:
At this point you now have the right to take your vehicle back to the mechanic for repairs, at his cost, for not using the proper lubricant. |
Couldn't the mechanic just say, "hey, he told me to use [insert wrong lubricant here]" and put the blame and responsibility back on the consumer? |
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08/18/2006 01:03:34 AM · #119 |
I've seen (and experienced) rip offs first hand in the auto repair world, and the few (and it's not so few I fear) bad apples do spoil it for the bunch.
Here in PA we have an annual safety inspection. So I take my 88 jeep, in 89, in for it's inspections. at 13200 miles the 'technician' (it's a jeep dealer) tells me the tie rod ends are worn out. And as a 'wear item' are not covered by the warrantly. having been a state inspection mechanic I knew he was blowing smoke (aka lying). I confronted them (tech and service manager) on the issues and they 'let it pass' - umm..12 years and 90,000 miles later (and 11 more inspections) those same tie rods were on the truck. Honesty? 'Factory Trained techs'? State licensed inpectors? not at that dealership apparently as they can't tell a good tie rod from a bad one!
I've seen a service writer tell a woman (her complaint - the brake light comes on when leaving her (steep) driveway - my diag -low fluid causing the sensor to trip on the slope) - the writer tells her 'That lights pretty serious. The technician says your brakes are getting low - we recomend a new master cylinder, rotors, pads, etc - it'll be $1300. (in 1992!!!) and she says 'well, i have to have the car, so go ahead' - I can pretty well damn guarantee she didn't need the work.
I've seen dealer mechanics, when it's slow work wise, call all kinds of borderline things...4 and 5/32 left on brakes so they call them, or tires and aligment and struts at 45k w/ 5/32 tread in july, 30k mile services at 25k 'to get ahead on maintenance'...
I think some diagnose by calling the most expensive part and if that doesn't fix it then they diagnose it! |
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08/18/2006 01:09:25 AM · #120 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The problem with the analogy is you know exactly what you are getting with the 19.95 JC penny sale. You see the high schooler behind the camera, you see the shots they took, you know up front how much it's gonna cost and what the pictures are gonna look like. |
Actually how do ya know? I mean to the average lay person like your assuming the Autoshop is getting? A picture session is a picture session right?
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
The reason people fear and hate mechanics is it's all a big black box. People don't understand their cars, people don't see the mechanic at work. It could be a very reasonable price, it could be complete highway robbery. One just never really knows. Combine it with enough shoddy mechanics out there that everybody has their own personal screw story or at least knows someone else with a story, and now you really get people hyperventilating. |
Can't the same be said of any profession? heck both my parents are PHD's as is my wife. You can't tell me theres not quack doctors either. Its also a big black unknown to the lay person. You didn't start this post off quality or getting screwed it was all about price, just admit that. You compaired it to a price of camera lens. You also automatically assumed what someone had invested and training in the automotive field, based on your education, yet you really don't know.
Im a professional Automotive Tech, always trying to improve myself with constant training, up to date tooling and information systems. You tell me I paid the $450 a the Doctors office the other day for an ear infection no questions asked they are the professional. Sounds like a double standard to me.
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08/18/2006 01:14:34 AM · #121 |
Originally posted by Prof_Fate:
I think some diagnose by calling the most expensive part and if that doesn't fix it then they diagnose it! |
How big is Beaver PA? Cause I know a kick arse tech that owns a shop right in town there, his name is John Gillespie of Gillespie's Auto Service Sure hes not super cheap but the guys an awesome tech and would never rip anyone off. I can give you his number if you wish.. |
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08/18/2006 01:26:12 AM · #122 |
Originally posted by karmat:
Couldn't the mechanic just say, "hey, he told me to use [insert wrong lubricant here]" and put the blame and responsibility back on the consumer? |
If a customer requests something, out of the normal recommendations or maintenance schedules, like using a different grade of oil, it should be documented, and signed on the invoice, by the customer, saying something to the effect of "...as per customer request".
If it was not noted, and it came under legal proceeedings, a shop should know better, and would lose, being they should be knowledgeable and should know better.
This thread reminds me about an occurance at the end of 1999, when I championed a campaign against Heineken for a radio commercial that really bashed the auto repair industry. I don't know if it was a national radio commercial or just local (national I suspect).
Amstel Light Beer was broadcasting the radio ad with the "Watered Down just doesn't cut it" message. I thought they were kinda' cute at first. The basics of those ads was about substituting harsh or cuss words with a "Watered Down" word, and how it just doesn't cut it.
The ad I heard several times a day, was about a lady getting really pissed concerning her car repairs.
"You want to charge me $749 dollars for a set of *&%$$^^ wiperblades?"
"Everytime I come in this %@&$%# place you guys are trying to F%@&$%# rip me off....Parts and Labor? Who in the %@&$%# installed them? The F%@&$%# Queen?" (The %@&$%# were dubbed over with gentle words)
And so on...and so on...and so on.
Through some well-written feedback messages to Heineken from myself and members of our online auto repair community, they contacted the site's administrator and said they appreciated the feedback and agreed to pull the ad. I'm sure it wasn't cheap to produce, then pull, but at least they agreed it could only negatively impact our industry. |
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08/18/2006 01:53:23 AM · #123 |
Never, Ever go to the dealer... they're know to rip you off. Thats why I go used, and have a machanic i trust, who doesnt screw you. He has told me that that is the standard charge for a glorified dealer check up!
I feel for u Doc, i really do! |
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08/18/2006 01:56:26 AM · #124 |
Originally posted by BradP:
Through some well-written feedback messages to Heineken from myself and members of our online auto repair community, they contacted the site's administrator and said they appreciated the feedback and agreed to pull the ad. I'm sure it wasn't cheap to produce, then pull, but at least they agreed it could only negatively impact our industry. |
Individually we are invisible, collectively we are a force :) |
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08/18/2006 01:59:11 AM · #125 |
Originally posted by brimac:
Never, Ever go to the dealer... they're know to rip you off. Thats why I go used, and have a machanic i trust, who doesnt screw you. He has told me that that is the standard charge for a glorified dealer check up!
I feel for u Doc, i really do! |
Hmmm, The dealer told him $425 for the 30k on his Subaru, Tell me just how thats a rip off? |
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