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08/08/2006 02:20:31 PM · #26 |
i'm going to leave the comments in this thread as they are, but i am going to move it into the rant forum. feel free to continue this as a level-headed discussion there.
play nice! |
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08/08/2006 02:23:59 PM · #27 |
93 minutes - good guess, sammigurl
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 14:25:09. |
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08/08/2006 02:59:54 PM · #28 |
Looking breifly through this thread, I see a lot of opinions of Christians, by Christians. As background for my comments, I'm not a Christian, though my parents were devoutly Catholic, and tried diligently to keep me in the fold. I'm an agnostic, acknowledging that neither atheists nor theists can prove their stance. My personal experience with Christians is really no different than with those of other faiths... there are all kinds of Christians, and I don't feel that someone's proclamation of being a Christian makes them different (better or worse) than any other individual. There is no secret to Christianity that makes adherents more (or less) moral or ethical, or behaviorially superior/inferior to those of any other faith. It's all up to the individual.
I'm a strong proponent of the idea that one's religious beliefs are intensely personal. It's wonderful to discuss, in a non-confrontational way, but any attempts to evangelize/proselytize should be avoided. Religion and government in all cases are a horrible mix. We're currently seeing the negative effects of this mix in the Mideast, Asia, the US, and elsewhere. History is littered with conflicts driven by the idea that one religion is the "correct" one, or by retaliation for alleged wrongs perpetrated thousands of years ago.
Where am I going with this? Simply put, it's the idea that outsiders' perception of any faith is ultimately the responsibility of the individual adherents, and it is the individual's responsibility to ensure that the power to guide their faith stays in the hands of the constituents, not in the hands of a few, powerful leaders. In this respect, religion is no different than govenrment. Blind adherence to anything, without free and independent thought, is a prescription for disaster.
In summation:
- Religion is a very personal, private individual matter, and individuals should not evangelize/proselytize others. An exception would be the bringing up of children in the faith of their parents.
- Religion should not be used to influence or govern a political entity
- Government should not influence, direct, support or prohibit religious belief or practice, unless that practice is found to violate basic human rights.
- Laws should not be based on religion. Ever.
- Religion and science are not mutually exclusive, but science and religion should remain separate in the educational process.
So in the end, how do I view Christians?
As Individuals.
I offer the foregoing purely as personal opinion. This is my philosophy, arrived at through nearly five decades of observation of my fellow humans. Take it for what you feel it is worth.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 15:02:08. |
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08/08/2006 03:09:26 PM · #29 |
Thank you to all who have posted so far. I consider this a most civil discourse. Thank you to the ones who included the Ghandi quote. I thought about it a couple of times, but kept forgetting to type it because I had so many thoughts "dancing in my head."
To those who are angry about your experiences with Christians: You should be! I am angry about mine!!!! Sometimes I become so ashamed that I don't even want to call myself a Christian, but I have never been ashamed of knowing & loving Jesus as Someone Who genuinely seems to live what I feel & what I believe on the inside. All my experiences tell me that Jesus (if nobody else) seems to care about me just as I am, even before I become a better photographer or a better anything else for that matter.
Since I don't have a better name for who I am regarding my beliefs, I will keep calling myself a Christian. I am personally grieved for all of your bad experiences with Christians. I hope that I will be one good experience. I hope one day to be the kind of photographer whose photos will lend the credibility of quality to his words, not just some hack who "tries" so that he can "spout off" in member forums.
One thought I read in the Bible years ago became "burned" into my heart because it was a forceful warning made by the LORD to His followers. They are words that appear to have anticipated Ghandi's words as well as the words many of you Friends have written today.
"My ways are not your ways! My thoughts are not your thoughts! As the heavens are high above you, even so are My thoughts above your thoughts!" Loosely translated in my vernacular, they have always meant to me, "Be careful how you represent Me because if you start to copy each others' 'good works,' you are going to misrepresent the essential message I am wanting to tell the world!"
Setting standards horizontally rather than vertically reminds me of a joke I heard when I was a kid. (I will, of course, clean it up a bit so as to maintain my commitment to being as inoffensive as possible.)
"It seems that two foolish men were in the same boat fishing. Toward the end of the day they began to bring in fish one right after another since they apparently drifted over a school of fish.
"One fisherman said, 'Hey, Guy! This is great! We need to remember this place. So we don't forget, I'm going to mark the side of the boat with a big X.'
"To that his buddy replied, 'Don't do that, Fella! That is Dumb! How do you know we are going to have the same boat next time? Just mark a big X in the water!'" ;)
Finally, a rare kind word for the atheist & the agnostic who wrote. Thank you for offering me your insight!
I would much rather talk with one honest, thinking atheist who challenges my beliefs rather than talk to 100 non-thinging Christians who typically shame me for thinking.
For my part I would walk away from the conversation a better man because the atheist or agnostic would have sharpened my mind, even if my beliefs remained unchanged. (I would like to think the atheist or agnostic could say the same thing about me.)
Remember, "A weak belief cannot stand up to a challenge, and an unchallenged belief is not worth the gray matter!" (SCH)
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 15:24:41.
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08/08/2006 03:15:30 PM · #30 |
well written, kirbic ... my only question (and there's no need to answer if you don't wish to) is how do people decide what is, and what is not a "basic human right"?
Originally posted by kirbic:
- Government should not influence, direct, support or prohibit religious belief or practice, unless that practice is found to violate basic human rights.
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08/08/2006 04:02:59 PM · #31 |
Anyway, to be a Christian to me, is believing in the bible and reading it for yourself. Don't rely on someone else to tell you the words or a movie that is someone else's interpretation. Read it for yourself. When you pray, pray silently, not in front of others just so they see that you are a Christian. Don't run around spreading the Word of God and let those same people see you doing evil things. Don't ever think that you are good enough. The Bible says that God thinks more of the person who sins all the time and knows he needs to improve than the person who only sins 'a little bit' and thinks everything he does is holy. Don't go to church just to give your money to the pastor that drives a BMW. don't go to church just to give your money infront of others so they see you giving your money. If you truly want to give money to someone that is in need of the money, then give the money privately and don't expect a reward. It will be given to you later when you aren't expecting it.
Anyway, the moral of the story is that people that just do stuff so other people see them doing these 'Christian' acts are not doing the right thing in my eyes. Although I have no authority to judge anyone or anyone's intentions.
--
I was brought up Christian. I was dragged to church every Sunday and to children's bible school where I didn't fit in with a single other kid there. They all came from upper class families and I came from a poor neighborhood with only my Mother as a parent. They looked down on me because of that. I don't know why.
Later in life, I returned to that same church. Many of the 'kids' who were there when I was younger were still going to the same church, some of them with kids and families of their own. I felt so unwelcomed it wasn't funny. So I left.
--
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08/08/2006 04:06:10 PM · #32 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Anyway, to be a Christian to me, is believing in the bible and reading it for yourself. Don't rely on someone else to tell you the words or a movie that is someone else's interpretation. Read it for yourself. When you pray, pray silently, not in front of others just so they see that you are a Christian. Don't run around spreading the Word of God and let those same people see you doing evil things. Don't ever think that you are good enough. The Bible says that God thinks more of the person who sins all the time and knows he needs to improve than the person who only sins 'a little bit' and thinks everything he does is holy. Don't go to church just to give your money to the pastor that drives a BMW. don't go to church just to give your money infront of others so they see you giving your money. If you truly want to give money to someone that is in need of the money, then give the money privately and don't expect a reward. It will be given to you later when you aren't expecting it.
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It's like a modern day translation of the Sermon on the Mount. :)
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08/08/2006 04:10:43 PM · #33 |
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by deapee:
Anyway, to be a Christian to me, is believing in the bible and reading it for yourself. Don't rely on someone else to tell you the words or a movie that is someone else's interpretation. Read it for yourself. When you pray, pray silently, not in front of others just so they see that you are a Christian. Don't run around spreading the Word of God and let those same people see you doing evil things. Don't ever think that you are good enough. The Bible says that God thinks more of the person who sins all the time and knows he needs to improve than the person who only sins 'a little bit' and thinks everything he does is holy. Don't go to church just to give your money to the pastor that drives a BMW. don't go to church just to give your money infront of others so they see you giving your money. If you truly want to give money to someone that is in need of the money, then give the money privately and don't expect a reward. It will be given to you later when you aren't expecting it.
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It's like a modern day translation of the Sermon on the Mount. :) |
Not sure what that is, but I'd also like to recommend everyone that is interested in Christianity to read the Bible for themselves and interpret it for themselves. Don't just go off what my interpration is. I could be way out in left field.
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08/08/2006 04:12:57 PM · #34 |
Originally posted by deapee:
It's like a modern day translation of the Sermon on the Mount. :)
Not sure what that is, |
The Sermon on the Mount is in the 5th, 6th, and 7th chapters of Matthew.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 16:13:13. |
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08/08/2006 04:25:40 PM · #35 |
There are 158,000 Christians over there ---> //www.christianforums.com/
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 16:25:48. |
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08/08/2006 04:27:44 PM · #36 |
Geez, don't these people know that the internet is no place to discuss Christianity? The internet is mainly for porn, fighting, making fun of people, and chatting with babes (who just might happen to be other guys).
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08/08/2006 04:28:37 PM · #37 |
i hate to tread in dangerous waters, and i have only skimmed this thread, but i will offer my opinion -
Being a Christian is a matter of faith. Christians belive that God is God and the Bible is Truth. Whether we are right or not is a matter of faith. If you believe otherwise, that's your belief, and you have faith that that is correct. Everybody gets to make their own decisions. At the end of our lives, we may see who is right, and we might not. No one knows for sure! Kinda blows your mind, doesn't it!! |
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08/08/2006 04:44:27 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by gayle43103:
A Christian has no image, they have faith. |
Originally posted by boomtap:
You don't have to do anything but believe. |
I'll agree with those 2 statements and add my take...
My path: Catholic >> Atheist >> Agnostic >> Born again believer (sorry if you don't like that term, but if you've been through it, you know it fits).
The most common mistake people make is dismissing the message cuz they don't like the messenger. Another one is generalizing and saying "Christians are like this or that" or "I don't believe in God because look what people do in his name" (like what people do has any effect on whether he exists or not).
I know this: A Christian cannot argue or debate someone into believing. It is a personal experience and one that cannot be fully understood unless it IS experienced. I believe everyone comes into this workd with a sort of "homing device" - looking for God - and there are forces that rule this world who are doing everything they can to keep us from Him.
As far as "narrow-mindedness" - this one always cracks me up. People readily admit they stop listening to a Christian once they find out they are a Christian because "Christians are narrow minded" - hard not to see the irony or hypocrisy in that. ;-)
The fact that people think they don't know any decent Christians or Christians are all this way or that way, means you haven't opened your eyes. I thought the same things and have racked my brain trying to figure out why I could not see then what I am able to see now.
One last interesting observation is that whenever the discussion of God comes up, many folks who don't believe seem to have an irrational reaction to the subject even being discussed. I've argued politics and technical things civilly with people I know but when it comes to debating God, they start foaming at the mouth. But I can relate to it because you should have seen the fits of rage I went through when my wife started pressuring me to go to church before I was a believer. I couldn't even understand why I had that kind of reaction. Even as a non-believer, two hours in church was much more bearable than 2 hours at the mall. LOL
Ok don't know if any of that helps, but thought I'd throw it out there.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 16:48:52. |
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08/08/2006 04:50:10 PM · #39 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
My path: Catholic >> Atheist >> Agnostic >> |
Err you forgot
Catholic >> Atheist >> Agnostic >> NI >> USM
:p |
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08/08/2006 04:56:34 PM · #40 |
Thanks for the link, John. There's also an "Ignore" feature here:
But thanks for illustrating one of my points.
edit to add: You might want to go find a deodorant forum and post a link to that here: //www.dpchallenge.com/forum.php?action=read&FORUM_THREAD_ID=442544
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 16:58:36. |
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08/08/2006 05:01:08 PM · #41 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Thanks for the link, John. There's also an "Ignore" feature here:
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No problem.
The question was 'what does a Christian look like' - I thought a Christian forum would be a good place to research it.
I just couldn't find any good images of Ned Flanders. |
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08/08/2006 05:04:02 PM · #42 |
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08/08/2006 05:05:45 PM · #43 |
Originally posted by jhonan:
I just couldn't find any good images of Ned Flanders. |
Not all Christians look like Ned Flanders...
;-)
ps: sorry if I misunderstood the intent with your post. :) |
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08/08/2006 06:35:39 PM · #44 |
They look and sound like these guys.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 18:35:48. |
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08/08/2006 06:59:08 PM · #45 |
Too bad there are factions of all religions who believe that everyone should convert their religion so all the fighting would stop.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 18:59:51. |
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08/08/2006 07:07:16 PM · #46 |
There are some great posts here. I really like what deapee says. Read the Bible for yourself. Look for answers to questions you have.
9"So I say to you: Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. 10For everyone who asks receives; he who seeks finds; and to him who knocks, the door will be opened. âLuke 11
This verse means a lot to me. I was first âsavedâ at about 15. But later, as a young adult, I got pretty much wrapped up in my life and I wandered away from Christ. I never really stopped believing in God, but without even knowing it, I wasnât at all firm in my faith. Sure, I came up with things I said I felt to justify, to rationalize the way I felt. âThere is too much hypocrisy in the Church.â âThese âSundayâ Christians just arenât sincere.â âI donât need a Church, or any organized religion to define my own spirituality.â Etc.
But to look back at that time in my life now, I think that for me, it was all just a cop out. I did not want to make a commitment to God, I couldnât make the sacrifice and give my life to His will. A way to try and straddle the fence and think, âWell, I am a good person, I believe, but in my own way, and I donât want to stop living life for me.â
Well, I got older, and really started looking at my life. I went through bouts of depression, fear, anxiety, doubt, all kinds of stuff. I was finding my life to be really empty and meaningless. There has got to be more to life, I thought. You know, all that deep philosophical stuff about purpose and everything. J Obviously, I was familiar with Christianity, so I was pondering my beliefs, and where I stood in life. I found that I had serious doubts in my faith. I felt I was floundering like a ship lost at sea.
So, I prayed. I decided to be honest in my prayers. âIâm gonna be honest with you God (if you do exist), I thought I was a believer when I was younger. But I donât know where I am now for sure. I want some meaning in my life. I want a better life. If you are there, I want to know you. But, I donât want to just blindly say ok, I believe in you, and Iâm going to be a âchristianâ. If you want me God, give me something to go on. I donât even know for sure what I am asking for, but You do.â I actually prayed many times along these lines.
Well, Iâm a reader, and I like reading, studying, and learning about things. What happened next, happened slowly over a course of time. For some people, they have the âmomentâ, of âseeing the lightâ, but for some it is different. For me, I didnât even realize the significance of seemingly small things that were happening in my life until later, looking back upon them. Some things were even already in the works, I just didnât know it. For one thing, I married Sheila, a believer. And her family are people of great faith, and they set a new example that I was not used to seeing. I deeply respect and admire them. A couple of years ago, Sheila told me she had found this Church that sounded interesting, and she was going to start going there. She told me I might like it, that it was âcontemporaryâ, and asked if I would like to go with her some time. Well, I love my wife, and treasure anything we can do together, and remember, I was kind of âlookingâ anyways, so I agreed to go. I enjoyed it. They had this really cool band, and Noel, the pastor is a very dynamic, and very interesting speaker. So, I kept going, and kept liking it. My wife had an interactive Bible study cd, I started using it. I started reading some cool books, actually a lot of C.S. Lewis, and Lee Strobel and other stuff. I had some great conversations with people. I had all kinds of things that seemed like they were just being thrown directly at me. I didnât even realize it happening, but I became like an addict. The more I got a taste of, the more I wanted. I couldnât get enough. Somewhere along the line, I finally started to actually see what was happening. I had asked, I was receiving. I really was in a relationship with Christ. So at some point in time, I told God that I believed in Him. That I wanted Jesus to come into my life, that I believed that he died on the Cross so that I could be saved. That I was willing to give up my life for Him. I also told Him (and I still do sometimes) that ok, weâre stuck together now Lord, you sure got your work cut out for you with me J
As Art said, it is being âborn againâ. It is hard to understand until you have been through it. But it is a rebirth. And just as in our physical life, after we are born, as a child we experience life and start seeing all the wonders that the world has to offer, and we grow and learn, so too in our spiritual rebirth, we start out in our infancy, and starting to see all the wonders, and joy and hope that God has to offer. And we grow and learn, and mature as Christians. Am I perfect? NO, far, far from it. To put your faith in God, to be a follower of Christ, is not at all an easy road to travel. I still wrestle with things. I still have moments of doubt and frustration. I apologize, but I am definitely sometimes not a very good example at all. But I have a friend to turn to. And I believe He hears me and understands, and that He will help me through it all. When I fall, He is there to give me a hand and help me get back up.
In the end, it still comes down to being a matter of faith. But in all that I have experienced, and read, and felt and seen, I come back to that verse from Luke. Seek and you will find.
taterbug
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08/08/2006 07:09:40 PM · #47 |
Originally posted by deapee:
Geez, don't these people know that the internet is no place to discuss Christianity? The internet is mainly for porn, fighting, making fun of people, and chatting with babes (who just might happen to be other guys). |
AMEN :-)
edit: bolded, LOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 19:10:12. |
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08/08/2006 07:37:03 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by hopper:
well written, kirbic ... my only question (and there's no need to answer if you don't wish to) is how do people decide what is, and what is not a "basic human right"?
Originally posted by kirbic:
- Government should not influence, direct, support or prohibit religious belief or practice, unless that practice is found to violate basic human rights.
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That, kind sir, is the $64000 question. This is prolly the best definition we've got, and I doubt that it can be considered "universally agreed-upon." Nonetheless, it's a damn good start. |
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08/08/2006 07:59:11 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
One last interesting observation is that whenever the discussion of God comes up, many folks who don't believe seem to have an irrational reaction to the subject even being discussed. I've argued politics and technical things civilly with people I know but when it comes to debating God, they start foaming at the mouth. |
I'll talk about Christianity with you, as long as we don't have to discuss your interpretation of "turn the other cheek"...
re the $64,000 question: what IS the belief in basic human rights if not a religious belief?
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08/08/2006 09:01:56 PM · #50 |
I am not sure of the purpose of this thread, but I thought I would chip in.
I have a lot of experiences with Christianity. The people I have met who claim to be Christians have varied from being some of the most kind and pleasant people to spend time with when I was a counsellor on Christian holiday camps, through to the mad person with a megaphone at Oxford Circus (now served with an Anti Social Behaviour Order!). I would not suggest that there is any such thing as a typical Christian person.
However, there are some tendencies among people I know who claim to be Christians that seem (to me) to be fairly common. Many take a conservative approach to life. Hypocrisy is common, and religion is selectively practised. Many "Christian" values are in fact modern Western conservative socio-philosophical values.
The impact of Lutheranism cannot be understated. It has fundamentally altered the nature of the religion into a weak religion, demanding almost nothing of its adherents. Thus, it is a default option in the West for many people who are, at best, deists of some kind.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 21:02:22.
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