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08/08/2006 11:32:26 AM · #1 |
If you are reading this thread, please allow me to congratulate you for your courage!
It's just that I need some facts for a research project that I am doing for a follow-up magazine article that I intend to format as a lengthy Letter to the Editor in a local community-style magazine.
Please, allow me to give you some needed background on myself. I am the first-born son of a Southern Baptist preacher. (I still cherish my first King James Version Bible that Dad presented to me a week after I "got saved" [i.e. became a Christian."] However, I am not a KJV only adherent, even though I still do most of my personal reading in the KJV.)
Now, let me rush to my point lest the Site Council begins to "sweat bullets" over a member who appears to be getting a little "out-of-hand" with his recent forum posts. I have no intention of proselytizing on DPChallenge, even though that appears to be the impression we Christians seem to give when we open the subject of Faith.
As I have stated in my Bio, I know that I am "in the minority & always will be." It's just that I didn't realize how obnoxious I was about my Faith in my early twenties, and have spent the past quarter of a century trying to work on the presentation of my beliefs.
It is my hope that I have improved to the point that anyone can read what I write and identify me as a person who believes my beliefs without a doubt (i.e. I know consistently what I believe & I can articulate my beliefs understandably, even if the reader doesn't choose to believe them himself or herself.)
This entire preamble is just one description of a Christian. Here in the southeastern part of the U.S. we Christians seem to be noxious and notorious in our "narrow-minded, angry believer" presentation of ourselves. People who appear to believe that even non-Christians should "act like Christians."
From all I have read that appears to be consistent the world over. That is so not who Jesus describes Himself as being in the Bible (at least as I read it.) Jesus always had religious leaders angry with Him, not "your average Joe on the street."
Finally, this is where you come in...as I have tried to hone my presentation I have found myself increasingly opposed by the very people I would expect to be my friends (i.e. Christian leaders.) I still have great compassion for these, my friends. They are not intentionally bad people. They are simply afflicted with an appalling case of "religious myopia."
I have come to believe that what Jesus taught & lived is of such high quality...it doesn't need to be defended by me. Also, if I ever hope to have friendships with others based on shared beliefs...that... maybe they accepted from me...because something I said actually made sense to them, I have to become a person that can be believed in BEFORE one of my beliefs can be believed in.
This question is being posed exclusively to members because I have come to believe in the clarity of thought represented by this august assemblage. What does a Christian look like to you? Does anyone have positive experiences with Christians? I am especially interested in international perspectives. If you are a Christian in some country other than the U.S., how would you describe a "Good Christian"? Even if you aren't a Christian, how do Christians in other countries seem to portray a consistent walk of faith?
Note to Site Council: As my commitment to you and the interest of genuine research, there will be no rebuttal from me in response to any person's religious beliefs. Any slip-up in this area by me and you may mark my membership with a DQ, and I will leave the site "NO QUESTIONS ASKED!"
Note to Everyone: I would like to request that in this civil discourse we watch our language a little more than usual because some responses to my thread about "Codifying PC" kicked in the Child Internet Filter making them rather difficult to be read. Thanks. :) 777STAN
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08/08/2006 11:46:31 AM · #2 |
If I understand, you are asking what a Christian should act like or how a person that claims to be Christian would or should be perceived by others.
So I will answer this, and the cynicism that drips from my answer is that born of life in a Christian home as son of a Christian minister, surrounded for the entirety of my childhood by Christians.
A Christian is someone who leads their life in such a way that it follows the tenents of proper living as laid down in the Bible. How those tenents of good living are interpreted, how they are applied in real life, and what motivations exist for following them vary based on situation. As in all other religions, Christians pick and choose what portions of their religion to observe based on the inconvience it introduces into their life. If it were any other way, everyone claiming to be a Christian would sell all their worldly possessions and use the money and the rest of their life on the planet in the sole pursuit of helping the less fortunate.
So, a Christian is the same as a follower of any other religion. A life spent in the pursuit of balancing faith and hypocrisy in an attempt to find spiritual solace in a physical existence. |
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08/08/2006 11:48:36 AM · #3 |
Hmmm...what does a Christian look like? I don't think you can put an image on what a Christian looks like. We are all different and what matters is our image to God and not anyone else. You have to believe in your heart that God is real and if God sees that, which he does and no matter what you look like on the outside, God still loves you. Maybe your outward stance on religion may not be like others, the conversation that one day you will have with God, he'll answer all the questions.
I myself, don't belong to a church. Some see that as being a bad Christian. I don't. I don't need a church to tell me about God. I have my Bible and what I believe in my heart.
I whole heartedly believe that when I die and get to heaven, God will be there and the big bright light bulb will go off and I'll have my answers to all my questions. And hopefully I'll see my Dad again.
A Christian has no image, they have faith.
g
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 11:49:42.
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08/08/2006 12:08:43 PM · #4 |
Christianity is simple. If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins, then you are Christian, a willing bondservant of Christ made into His image (how God sees you). No strings attached.
It doesn't matter how much you read the bible, or how often you go to church, or how you behave. If you believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died for your sins, you are saved by grace through your faith in Jesus.
With that said, when you become a bondservant of Christ you have the Holy Spirit in you which helps guide your decisions, and grieves your indiscretions. And although we all will fall short of its guidings a change in your behavior is a common side effect of willingly giving yourself to God.
You don't have to do anything but believe.
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08/08/2006 12:11:36 PM · #5 |
christian by name, if not by nature. sorry, i just couldn't resist! ;-)
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08/08/2006 12:12:36 PM · #6 |
I wrote this on my blog over a year ago. It only answers your question indirectly, but I think it does show what I see a Christian should strive for...
...The quote comes from Micah 6:8 which says, "He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God." The core of Christianity involves our relationship with God, but another very important part of Christianity is the application of our faith in the world. Micah 6:8 speaks to the latter more than the former.
Justice - Perhaps the most misunderstood virtue of Christianity in our time. Many people concentrate on the idea of, "getting what you deserve". The cynic in me sometimes thinks we have mangled it into, "our enemies getting what they deserve". But this leaves out a larger and much more important part of Justice. For Christians, one reading of the book of Isaiah should make it fairly clear that God's Justice involves seeking equality and protection for those who cannot seek it for themselves. In Isaiah's day it was, "the fatherless and the widow"; in our society it is the poor, the minority, the uneducated, and, I believe, the unborn. Unfortunately, I often see the Religious Right espousing a strong Puritan ideal of, "God helps those who help themselves." The poor and uneducated are looked down upon because they just aren't trying hard enough. What they needs to see is that the system is stacked against them. How can you raise your kids "right" when you are a single mom working two jobs at minimum wage? Personally, I don't know how it ever gets done (although it does). To put it another way, the difference in the effort required for "success" between my son and a four-year-old poor, inner-city child is immense. My son will practically have to try to fail. The inner-city child may try her hardest and still not succeed. We, as Christians, should be painfully aware of this and strive to seek Justice for these people. When one takes a global view, we become even more guilty. Why does it take a tsunami which kills 200,000 to invoke an outpouring of charity from our government and ourselves?
Mercy - Often described as the opposite of Justice, "not getting what you do deserve". (This leads to a common question, how can God be both Just and Merciful? The answer, to me, often seems convoluted; one simply needs to look at the question with the definition of Justice mentioned above and then suddenly the two seem to be synonyms rather than antonyms.) While this idea comes closer to Mercy than the opposite came to Justice, it still seems that the Religious Right misses the application. Why do I always see the most conservative to be in staunch support of harsher prison terms and the death penalty? They often point to their ill-defined Justice, but even if we accept that definition, what happened to Mercy? The only example I find of Jesus confronting the death penalty led to the famous line, "Let him without sin cast the first stone." If Jesus wasn't down with the death penalty, why should I be? Mercy should involve second-chances instead of "three-strikes and you're out".
Humility - This is a virtue, I think, not to be understood by the non-Christian. Our society values the absolue opposite of humility. I won't dwell on it too much, but simply stated we should never have the phrase, "there, but for the grace of God, go I" far from our lips. Those of us who are successful (by whatever standard) should realize we had very little to do with it. Did I pick when I was born? Where I was born? Who my parents were? What my genetic potential was? Did I have one iota of input in those four questions which probably dictate 90% of my life? The obvious answer is no and we should never forget it. As a country, we should not be proud of the blessings heaped upon us. Too often we look at it as a reward for our actions. (I often hear we are "God's favored nation".) In reality, we should be a little overwhelmed and slightly apprehensive because in truth it is a sign of our immense responsibility. "To those who have been given much, much will be asked." Once Christians have been accepted into heaven, the poor and destitute will be welcomed straight to the banquet while the rest of us will be pulled aside to "settle up accounts". (That's a paraphrase...) Am I going to be able to offer God more than my 2004 Outback and my 42" plasma TV (which I don't even have yet)??
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08/08/2006 12:32:46 PM · #7 |
I'd be one to be brave enough to say what I think on this subject, but in all honesty, with the majority of people I'm guessing on this site being Christian, and me being an Atheist, it would not blow over too well. So I won't really comment on the matter.
But I will say this--the reason why I won't post what I think is that, in my opinion, Christians are close-minded when it comes to those outside their faith. But especially to those who have no faith, and choose not to have a faith. |
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08/08/2006 12:39:04 PM · #8 |
The short answer is: a Christian is pretty much anyone who says s/he is a Christian.
Most Christians have rules for their faith. These rules don't necessarily match the rules that other Christians have. Sometimes these Christians deny that other people are Christians. But there is no definitive authority to decide this. The Bible is not clear enough. The Pope can claim only Catholics. And what about before the Popes? The early Church was in some ways even more diverse than what we have now. Eventually a hierarchy of bishops was settled into and this hierarchy banned people who didn't believe the same way (the most famous example being the Gnostics), and their variants were lost to history. But this took hundreds of years. And even the bishops themselves ended up splitting into East and West.
There is no Core Belief that is held by every variant of Christianity throughout its history. "Jesus is my Saviour. He died for my sins." Nope. Not every Christian believes or believed that. The whole reason Christians have creeds like that is because other Christians didn't believe them, and this way those Christians could be called heretics.
I consider myself a Christian. I know more about the New Testament and how the Bible was written than most Christians. Christ is my ultimate model of behavior. But I don't think Christ used his blood to buy me a ticket to Happy Forever Place. I don't even think Christ was trying to start a new religion. I think he was a Jew who probably thought the world was going to end. Heck, I'm not even sure that he's not a fictional character. But I'm still a Christian if I say so. You can't make me a non-Christian by saying I am.
As a result, I have no preconceptions about a Christian. Instead, I listen for code phrases, like "born again" and "saved." Then I get an idea of the "flavor" of that Christian.
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08/08/2006 12:40:39 PM · #9 |
so what? if you believe you're right, why does it matter that some will accept your point of view and other will not?
Taking a stand on a belief, religious or not, means closing your opinion off to a differing belief. Everyone is close minded ... not just Christians.
Originally posted by sammigurl:
But I will say this--the reason why I won't post what I think is that, in my opinion, Christians are close-minded when it comes to those outside their faith. But especially to those who have no faith, and choose not to have a faith. |
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08/08/2006 12:41:20 PM · #10 |
p.s. I forgot a very important point. The Bible itself took hundreds of years to write and compile. There were Christians before there was a Bible, so how can it define Christianity?
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08/08/2006 12:41:28 PM · #11 |
Originally posted by routerguy666:
As in all other religions, Christians pick and choose what portions of their religion to observe based on the inconvience it introduces into their life.
So, a Christian is the same as a follower of any other religion. A life spent in the pursuit of balancing faith and hypocrisy in an attempt to find spiritual solace in a physical existence. |
I'm only using the part of the quote I'm replying to...
I personally know a Christian minister who made his 18 year old daughter have an abortion because the baby was of mixed race. Yet, this same minister protests at abortion clinics on a revolving basis. This same minister threw his underage son out of his home for cutting school. The boy stayed with us for over a month before the mother finally talked the father into taking him back. Sooo... it's really about the individual, not the religion IMHO. |
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08/08/2006 12:46:59 PM · #12 |
| I predict this thread will be in rant within 5 hours of my posting this message. |
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08/08/2006 12:48:37 PM · #13 |
that long?
Originally posted by strangeghost:
I predict this thread will be in rant within 5 hours of my posting this message. |
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08/08/2006 12:49:40 PM · #14 |
| I'm guessing 90 minutes, tops. |
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08/08/2006 12:52:07 PM · #15 |
i think a Christian is a person who lives and loves to their very best ability. . . i think that makes Jesus smile :) :) :)
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 12:58:09.
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08/08/2006 12:56:28 PM · #16 |
Originally posted by sammigurl:
I'd be one to be brave enough to say what I think on this subject, but in all honesty, with the majority of people I'm guessing on this site being Christian, and me being an Atheist, it would not blow over too well. So I won't really comment on the matter.
But I will say this--the reason why I won't post what I think is that, in my opinion, Christians are close-minded when it comes to those outside their faith. But especially to those who have no faith, and choose not to have a faith. |
In my humble opinion, a true Christian will accept anyone's ideas and personal preference, anyday, anytime, anywhere. Perhaps not AGREE with it but certainly not write that person off because of their beliefs or background. It is certainly true that some people who call themselves Christians have not grasped that concept yet and unfortunately those are the ones that stand out to those outside of the Christian religion... and it scares many people away from the religion. But we've gotta have love for those individuals as well and hope they will open up their hearts!
And heck, if everyone was the same religion things would be pretty boring... the variety of all the beliefs and ideas can only help us all grow stronger and become more insightful.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 13:11:08.
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08/08/2006 12:59:14 PM · #17 |
Christian by definition is one who is like Christ. To me that is one who just, merciful, humble, strong and sacrificial. Putting others before one's 'self' in all things reasonable.
That said, Ghandi pretty much sums up my feelings regarding those who call themselves Christians in his following quote "I very much like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are nothing like your Christ."
This spoken by someone who has been a christian for over 25 yrs. Christians have the tendency to be some of the biggest hypocrites ever. That said, I've encountered a lot of criticial atheists and non-religious who criticize Christians but are just a hypocritical, mean, unkind, etc.
This leads me to believe that such behaviors and actions are a human trait and know no prejudice to color, race, gender, sexual orientation nor intelligence.
*shrug*
Humanity = one big dysfunctional family
That said, I truly have met Christians who are people radically changed from what they once were. It is a beautiful thing to see a life which has allowed God to re-shape it in beautiful ways. |
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08/08/2006 01:05:49 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Humanity = one big dysfunctional family
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INDEED! that's the beauty of it! :)
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08/08/2006 01:13:28 PM · #19 |
I was brought up to believe that you should view people based on what they mean to you. Not what they look like dress like, Who they Pray to etc.... So I have no real way to define what anyone should look like.
I was baptised a catholic but in 38 years I have only gone to actual Sunday church services a handful of times. I have attended 100's of weddings but I am usually operating a video camera or checking a mic level so I do not have time to take a knee and worship. I pray when I need to and try my best to respect everyone else. Not sure if that makes me a christian or not. But hopefully it is enough.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 13:14:05.
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08/08/2006 01:24:52 PM · #20 |
I'd also like to add that I consider myself a follower of Christ even though I rarely attend Church or read the Bible. I have my own church sessions... whether it be a Sunday morning full of thought on the beach or a long winded chat with the Big Guy in which I thank Him over and over again with all He has blessed me with... or a ride with my horse amongst beautiful scenery... or a photo shoot in which I am obsessing over the splendor of a landscape or a person whom is a work of God. My "church" congregation sometimes only last a couple seconds when I give someone an unexpected smile on the street or hold back from yelling at my younger sisters. :) I have nothing against those that do attend church by the clock every Sunday... I even attend from time to time and feel very enlightened afterwards. As Christians, I think the most important thing is that we make a conscious effort to open up our souls and let Chirst in as often as we can!
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 13:31:00.
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08/08/2006 01:35:25 PM · #21 |
I to was baptised as catholic, but as i've grown up I dont believe in most of what they preach. I do what I wanna do and as long as I am happy I dont need people telling me how to live my life. I do right by God and everyone around me. I choose not to go to church but thats just because i'm lazy. I recently went to a catholic wedding and it was like 2hrs long! Most of the time I was daydreaming or fighting to stay awake. Then we had to go eat bread, but it tasted like a stale ass cracker to me. Anyway to the OP, I dont think you can pin point what a Christian looks like. I work with girls who sleep around, treat people like shit, have 3 or 4 kids by different fathers and they talk about how they are "Christians" I also work with some Catholic girls who sleep around every other week, curse, drink, take birth control, and backstab...but yet every year they are determined to do that Lent thing. One of the girls even gave up sex for Lent. HAHA! Isnt that pathetic? but like the Saj said they can be some of the biggest "hypocrites" ever. So for my point, you cant say they have a similar look, because IMO we all look, act, and display different characteristics.
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08/08/2006 01:39:02 PM · #22 |
You mean the Christian who slaughtered millions of infidels in the various inquisitions and crusades? The same that has killed lots of fellow christians because they had a different idea of subbordination? The same that turned his religion into a number of the world's biggest businesses and profits from the poorest fellow men and evades being taxed? The same that lobbies and influences the world politics on the large scale? I could go on, but this is enough to illustrate the point: of course, I think of a prototypical Christian as a very kind, fluffy kind of personality whose only thoughts are obedience and 'self'-enlightenment through the readings of the scriptures. :)
Edti: spelling.
Message edited by author 2006-08-08 13:42:15. |
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08/08/2006 01:45:46 PM · #23 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
... Ghandi pretty much sums up my feelings regarding those who call themselves Christians in his following quote "I very much like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are nothing like your Christ." |
Got to love Gandhi, always got to the heart of the matter.
You ask what a Christian looks like. It is hard to think of Christians (or most other 'believers" in most any religion) and not think of hate and intolerance. Throughout history (including today) how many wars have been fought in the name of God? How many times do our political figures invoke the name of the Lord in their rhetoric? Yup, too many. Gandhi had it right. Unfortunately people who emulate the true spirit of Jesus are lost in the hypocrisy of the masses (pun intended).
One more quote from Gandhi:
"I will give you a talisman. Whenever you are in doubt, or when the 'self' becomes too much with you, apply the following test. Recall the face of the poorest and the weakest man [woman] whom you may have seen, and ask yourself, if the step you contemplate is going to be of any use to him [her]. Will he [she] gain anything by it? Will it restore him [her] to a control over his [her] own life and destiny? In other words, will it lead to swaraj [freedom] for the hungry and spiritually starving millions?
Then you will find your doubts and your 'self' melt away."
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08/08/2006 01:55:54 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by gayle43103:
A Christian has no image, they have faith.
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And faith without works is dead.
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08/08/2006 02:03:18 PM · #25 |
okay, honestly what in the world is this thread about? It seems to me to be a religous zealot trying to drum up support or controvercy. The question "what does a christian look like" is barely addressed in your post, and it doesn't make any sense anyway. You don't need an online forum to solidify your beliefs, and if you do... I'm very sorry for you.
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