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09/16/2003 01:50:50 PM · #1 |
I went out at took some shots at a ballgame the other day and I want to sell some of the pictures. Will I be able to do this without editing the images. Do I need to get permission from the league or can I just use the images?
Message edited by author 2003-09-16 13:51:36.
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09/16/2003 02:35:34 PM · #2 |
| Check the back of your ticket, often they have restictions on what can be done. Also there is the restictions about using an image to endorse a product. |
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09/16/2003 04:08:20 PM · #3 |
I'm surprised you were able to get anything of quality worth selling. At our local ballpark, they tell anyone with a decent camera -- or at least a long lens to put the camera away. This happened to me when I was trying to shoot pictures at the game with my E-10 and a TCON-300 (equivalent lens is about a 420mm). Apparently they have people who scan the stands looking for people with the ability to take good pictures and send an usher to shut them down. They want to make sure they make their cut off any image shot, thus no unauthorized "quality" photos.
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09/16/2003 05:47:21 PM · #4 |
Well my camera is a point and shoot type of camera, so it is easier to not look too obvious with, but it is equivalent to a 350mm with the 10x optical. The images are good enough to sell from DPC Prints, so I'm just trying to gauge if I should edit the image down.
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09/16/2003 06:05:31 PM · #5 |
| i had a similar thing happen to me when i shot my sports shot. they weren't going to let me in with my camera at first but then did. however, i have gone to other stadiums and they have said nothing. so i guess you just don't know. |
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09/16/2003 06:18:18 PM · #6 |
Stands at stadiums and arenas are full of cameras -- watch for all the flashes going off when you watch a game on TV.
If you pay for a ticket, I don't see how they can prohibit you from taking a picture of something you can see from your seat or the generally-accessible public areas.
Since these are public figures, you have the right to publish their likeness for journalistic, edicational, or artistic purposes; you should certainly have the right to reproduce them for your own personal enjoyment.
You may not use the image for other commercial purposes (e.g. trading cards) or to imply endorsement of some other product or service you provide.
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09/16/2003 06:27:51 PM · #7 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Stands at stadiums and arenas are full of cameras -- watch for all the flashes going off when you watch a game on TV.
If you pay for a ticket, I don't see how they can prohibit you from taking a picture of something you can see from your seat or the generally-accessible public areas. |
I have never had a problem using my camera with say a 50mm lens or even a 135mm lens. It's when you bring out the big hardware that they talk to you. The only other time I've been approached was when I was shooting video of a world series game. They didn't like that at all. Before I got busted, I got great footage of the crowd going wild all around me, plus a little field action :)
Different places have different standards and copyright issues. I remember once being busted for taking a photo in a theatre of our group in their seats, before the show. An attendant said the entire theatre was copyrighted and I couldn't take pictures even though I was pointed away from the stage -- AND the play hadn't even started yet.
I believe the back of your game tickets or theatre tickets say what you can and cannot do. Check it out -- you'll be surprised.
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09/16/2003 06:30:58 PM · #8 |
| The other alternative to trying to read the micro-print on the back of your ticket is to call the event venue in advance and ask what is, and is not, allowed. So far, I've always been told I was OK to shoot with whatever I asked to bring... |
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09/16/2003 06:46:09 PM · #9 |
Originally posted by Patella:
The other alternative to trying to read the micro-print on the back of your ticket is to call the event venue in advance and ask what is, and is not, allowed. So far, I've always been told I was OK to shoot with whatever I asked to bring... |
A good idea, but it doesn't hurt to have that in writing so when the usher or security person says "Put that camera away" you can whip out your written permission and say, "This says I can shoot."
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09/16/2003 07:03:28 PM · #10 |
Originally posted by hgpayne:
Different places have different standards and copyright issues. I remember once being busted for taking a photo in a theatre of our group in their seats, before the show. An attendant said the entire theatre was copyrighted and I couldn't take pictures even though I was pointed away from the stage -- AND the play hadn't even started yet.
I believe the back of your game tickets or theatre tickets say what you can and cannot do. Check it out -- you'll be surprised. |
Yeah, theatres and concerts often have different rules than sports venues, partly because what is being photographed is already-copyrighted works (play, costumes, sets).
When I took Isaac to Magicopolis in Santa Monica, they had a less than clear "No Flash Photography" sign posted. I asked if non-flash was OK, and they said not during the performance (gotta protect those trade secrets) unless your kid is on stage. |
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09/16/2003 07:20:16 PM · #11 |
I can't recall the exact wording (though I've heard it a million times), but they always have that copyright message they read at the end of broadcast sports games. Doesn't it go something like "This game is the property of *whoever*. Any accounts without the express permission of *whoever* is strictly forbiden." (That's not even close, I'm sure...) I'm pretty sure they at least want a piece of any money made from the existence of that game. After all, they paid the players, the stadium, all the employees, etc. - all the expenses required to make the game happen. (From their point of view) They should benefit from any money made off the game.
But, that's just an observation. As stated above, check with the team first. |
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09/16/2003 08:37:47 PM · #12 |
What scottk brought up is the exact reason I posted the question in the first place. I'm so used to watching games on TV and them saying that all footage of the game is property of the teams or the league or something and can't be used without express written consent by them all. So if I take a picture of a pitcher throwing a pitch, but you can't see the team logo or the name on his back, should I be able to sell them image? Or let's I blank out the team logo and the players name like they do in most commercials when they don't want to pay the team that the specific player is on. Should I be able to sell the image, since it has been made generic?
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09/16/2003 08:50:57 PM · #13 |
Originally posted by alternarule:
Should I be able to sell the image, since it has been made generic? |
It's hard to make something generic -- I mean there are recognizable team colors, logos, not to mention players faces. Maybe its like the need for a model release: If you can clearly see who it is, you need a release, but if you cannot make out the person -- more or less generic -- then you don't need a release. I'm not sure about all the other logos and sign advertisements around that might get in your shot and what those companies have to say. I think your question is actually best suited for your lawyer -- He'll *maybe* have the answers.
Yes, I did shoot generic shots in the ballpark, and actually now that I think of it, our local team said they had NO PROBLEM shooting anything before the start of the game, including batting practice. This shot was NOT using any high powered lens and was definitely before the start of the game. It is, however, rife with product ads and logos.
Message edited by author 2003-09-16 20:55:50.
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09/16/2003 09:20:09 PM · #14 |
Originally posted by hgpayne:
It is, however, rife with product ads and logos.
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Hard to avoid those at the Q, isn't it? :)
Another thought: DPC Prints might also have a problem with this, simply because if your planning on selling it off their site, they could face some liability if the team or MLB became aware of the prints and decided to make waves. (Of course, the silly thing being, the amount of money you might make is miniscule compared to the budgets of a major league baseball franchise. But they have lawyers on retainer who have to justify their existence somehow. And besides, its the principle of the matter. And the principle is money. And money makes lawyers mouths water. Oops, I'm rambling.) |
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09/16/2003 10:03:41 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by ScottK:
Originally posted by hgpayne:
It is, however, rife with product ads and logos.
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Hard to avoid those at the Q, isn't it? :)
Another thought: DPC Prints might also have a problem with this, simply because if your planning on selling it off their site, they could face some liability if the team or MLB became aware of the prints and decided to make waves. (Of course, the silly thing being, the amount of money you might make is miniscule compared to the budgets of a major league baseball franchise. But they have lawyers on retainer who have to justify their existence somehow. And besides, its the principle of the matter. And the principle is money. And money makes lawyers mouths water. Oops, I'm rambling.) |
Gotta go to Wrigley. They don't have very much advertising at all. It's nice.
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09/16/2003 10:05:03 PM · #16 |
Yeah scott that is another reason i posed the question, I don't want the leagues lawyers coming for me. I'll probably make like $10 off the picture and the league will sue me for thousands, ok maybe just a portion of my profit.
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09/17/2003 01:16:50 AM · #17 |
Just because it keeps coming up in the forum here is what the ticket from the game said.....
'This ticket is a revocable license, subject to denial of admission upon refund of face value and subject to revocation and removal without compensation at management's discretion. Tickets obtained from unauthorized sources may be lost or stolen tickets and if so are void. WARNING: Holder assumes all risk incidentalto the game of baseball whether occuring prior to, during or after the game, including (but no exclusively) the danger of being injured by or in connection with any thown bat or thown or batted ball, and agrees that Major League Baseball, the National League, the teams, their agents and players are not liable for resulting injuries. Holder will not transmit or aid in transmitting any picture or discription of the game or act in disorderly manner. Breach of the foregoing terminates this license. Holder allows the Participating Clubs and their designees to use holder's image or likeness in connection with any broadcast or other reproduction of the game.
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09/17/2003 02:45:51 AM · #18 |
Originally posted by alternarule:
Holder will not transmit or aid in transmitting any picture or discription of the game or act in disorderly manner. Breach of the foregoing terminates this license. Holder allows the Participating Clubs and their designees to use holder's image or likeness in connection with any broadcast or other reproduction of the game. |
Well, then. I guess you're not supposed to share any pictures of the game, but they can take and broadcast all the pictures of you they want. Isn't that special?
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09/17/2003 03:16:27 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
When I took Isaac to Magicopolis in Santa Monica, they had a less than clear "No Flash Photography" sign posted. I asked if non-flash was OK, and they said not during the performance (gotta protect those trade secrets) unless your kid is on stage. |
Or inless you're hired as the official show photographer! Turning Darkness into Light
Message edited by author 2003-09-17 03:17:11.
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09/17/2003 03:41:42 AM · #20 |
Originally posted by alternarule:
Holder will not transmit or aid in transmitting any picture or discription of the game or act in disorderly manner. Breach of the foregoing terminates this license. |
I'm no lawyer (and I don't play one on TV), but doesn't that say that they're only threatened action for violating that clause is to "terminate the license". Since the game is over, hasn't the license "expired", and therefore aren't you released? Now I'm on the "go ahead and sell them" side! (Still, my only worry being over DPC Prints liability.) |
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09/17/2003 08:53:11 AM · #21 |
I'm kind of with scott on this one, the license seems to be the ability to be in that seat at the ball park, which terminates once you leave the park. Also it talks about transmitting pictures, isn't that considered more of video taping and showing the game while it is in action. Since the teams typically have multi-million dollar deals with stations like espn, fox sports, or some other local channel that shows the game, they don't want you broadcasting it on your own channel.
Hey there was this whole big law suit in new york between cablevision and the yes network, and most of new york didn't have yankee games for a season all because of what channel the games were being shown on.
But, I'm also for selling (since it is for my profit), but if it's going to cause problems in the future I wonder if I shouldn't.
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09/17/2003 10:29:25 AM · #22 |
The "disclaimer" heard on radio and TV broadcasts refers to THEIR "descriptions and accounts" of the game, and contitutes their copyright notice (can't print a © on radio waves). You are not allowed to videotape the telecast, and then assemble and market your own "Greatest Sports Moments of 2003" tape.
You are not allowed to "transmit" pictures or accounts of the game because the TV/radio rights are indeed assigned to specific stations. That's why you can sometimes hear a sports reporter describing what has just happened at a game, but not giving a play-by-play account.
You are not allowed to sneak in a wireless video camera and transmit your own broadcast. You might have a problem using one of those camera phones to send a running account to your friends in the office. Even then, I think they would have to prove they suffered economic damages to collect anything.
But none of this should have any effect on your rights to take and use still photos for any otherwise legitimate purpose (see my previous post).
Message edited by author 2003-09-17 10:30:26. |
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09/17/2003 01:04:24 PM · #23 |
It must depend on which team you visit. On the back of my Padres ticket it says:
Ticket holder agrees not to transmit or aid in transmitting any description, account, picture reproduction or other depiction in any media now or hereafter existing, of all or any part of the baseball game or related events to which this ticket admits the holder. Breach of the foregoing may result in legal action against the ticket holder.
Funny thing though... this is the last year at the Q. Next year's games will be in the new ballpark downtown. They are doing the whole nostalgia thing this year and one item in particular seems to be contradictory to this: Last year they asked fans to submit a photograph of their favorite Padres memory. 81 of those photos were chosen to adorn the front of each of the home game tickets for this year.
At the game they show the picture on the scoreboard and the submitter gets to change the 'days until the new ballpark' countdown. I wonder if after that, the lawyers show up with the lawsuits against the submitters...
Message edited by author 2003-09-17 13:10:11.
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09/17/2003 03:21:59 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by hgpayne:
It must depend on which team you visit. On the back of my Padres ticket it says:
Ticket holder agrees not to transmit or aid in transmitting any description, account, picture reproduction or other depiction in any media now or hereafter existing, of all or any part of the baseball game or related events to which this ticket admits the holder. Breach of the foregoing may result in legal action against the ticket holder. |
I STILL believe that this refers only to the transmission of contemporaneous descriptions during the event, not to ordinary still images. The "any media" refers to new technology, like that retinal chip which will send whatever your brain sees to your twin in Nebraska (just kidding, sort-of).
Many teams have a "photo" day -- in Oakland, people with cameras are allowed on the outfield warning track before the game. The players and coaches walk slowly around the edge of the outfield so people can take close-ups. I (and many others) also had cameras for recent post-game fireworks.
The easiest way (as was mentioned) to deal with this is to call ahead and see what you can/can't do. |
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09/17/2003 03:25:18 PM · #25 |
The easiest way to clear this up would be to contact whoever it is who sells the tickets and ask them if you are allowed to profit from images you took while at the game. I'm sure they know if you are allowed or not, and they are probably the people who would sue you if you are not, anyway.
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