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08/03/2006 11:49:11 PM · #126 |
I hope this helps,
I work in a reletivly small city (125,000 pop)in the state of Florida. In my city alone there are 127 spots that are designated as high priortity terrorist targets that have higher levels of security. This would include water treatment plants, fire, police, airports, pool stores (thousands of gallons of liquid chlorine), power plants, power sub-stations, sewer and wastewater lines and on and on and on.
Prior to 9-11 no one thought anything about these areas and no, I really don't think that Osama is sitting in a cave somewhere thinking about my mid-size town. Then again, the six Jewish women attacked last week in the northwest probably never thought they we be attacked by a terrorist, but they were.
You do have to realize my city (and most others) did not make these designations but are following the guidelines as set for by the Federal Department of Homeland Security. Following the guidelines gets you federal money. (We just got a $50,000 robot?????)
Now for the photography problem. As with any job, the peon is told what his bosses want him to know and is told to enforce it. He wants a paycheck so he does what he is told and he is covered. Think about your job and some of the things people give you sh*t about and you reply with something like "I don't make the rules but you can talk to my boss" Now as a means to an end, the bosses do things the easy way. 99% of the people these peons talk to will leave with no fight, no argument and no problem. Remember, most of the complaints the security guards are answering from the public who are afriad. The other 1% of the complaints are handled on a case by case basis.
I have never had a problem either approaching a police officer or security guard and handing them a card and saying something to the effect of "I'm a photographer and and going to take some photographs of (enter your unique subject). I know some idiot will think it's illegal and call you and I didn't want to waste your time by making you come out to me. I'll be in a (make or model of car) and won't be long at all. If you need any additional information you know where to find me."
I have gone to Tampa International Airport and called the airport police on the way in and never had a problem. I did have one cop who is also a photographer came out and chat with me. I have never been approached as in the incident that started this thread but I found that this works with me. Realizing that you are dealing with a $7.50 per hour security guard might make things easier for you.
Just my 2 cents worth |
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08/04/2006 10:08:41 AM · #127 |
This morning I followed my husband to work and shot some photographs of him along the way to work for a portrait assignment.
He works across the street from Independence Hall. After leaving his workplace I went into the park behind Independence Hall and walked around and took a few photographs. When I sat down on a bench, a park ranger came over and we played "20 questions" about what I was up to.
It was ironic that near of a national symbol of freedom and independence I was not truly free. |
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08/04/2006 10:20:00 AM · #128 |
If a terrorist wanted to blow up the outside of a terminal, where there is absolutely no security present...
All they need to do is roll up with any kind of car, filled with explosives and push the button. It would create their intended effect of scaring the bejeebus out of people and would cause Congress to erase even more of our freedoms in order to "make us safer". |
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08/04/2006 12:01:44 PM · #129 |
Originally posted by Baron152:
Now for the photography problem. As with any job, the peon is told what his bosses want him to know and is told to enforce it. He wants a paycheck so he does what he is told and he is covered. |
This is all well and good if in actuality it was the case, however in my case to get the cops to come they lied after I had introduced myself to the "guard" and told him what I was doing he called the Port Authority Police and said "A middle eastern looking man is taking pictures of the bridge after we told him he can't." So that argument is out the window.
Originally posted by Baron152:
99% of the people these peons talk to will leave with no fight, no argument and no problem. Remember, most of the complaints the security guards are answering from the public who are afraid. The other 1% of the complaints are handled on a case by case basis. |
Where do you get your figures for this assumption? I doubt even 10% are from people calling in I would say that we are told "Somebody saw you we don't know who" is a line given to the cops just to show they have cause to break the law and harass me.
Originally posted by Baron152:
I have never had a problem either approaching a police officer or security guard and handing them a card and saying something to the effect of "I'm a photographer and going to take some photographs of (enter your unique subject). I know some idiot will think it's illegal and call you and I didn't want to waste your time by making you come out to me. I'll be in a (make or model of car) and won't be long at all. If you need any additional information you know where to find me." |
This is a crock.
IN 1972 I had the pleasure to visit Romania and Chezkslovakia and met a student who spoke English very well, he asked where I was from and I told him I was from New Jersey, he said "That is very close to New York." He knew his geography, I said yes. He then asked a question that changed my life. "How long before you go to New York do you have to tell the police?" Like if I said three days he would have thought what freedom I have. When I told him I didn't have to ask, I could drive anytime I wanted, or take a bus or train, he almost cried, he had no idea what freedom was. Both countries were behind the iron curtain at the time and they never were taught what freedom is.
You can't have a little freedom. You are either free or not.
I fear people are so screwed up about terrorism that they are willing to little by little give up what is an inalienable right ordained by God for a slight measure of so called security. Well you are then no longer free.
Mike
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08/04/2006 12:40:31 PM · #130 |
Originally posted by MPRPRO:
Originally posted by Baron152:
Now for the photography problem. As with any job, the peon is told what his bosses want him to know and is told to enforce it. He wants a paycheck so he does what he is told and he is covered. |
This is all well and good if in actuality it was the case, however in my case to get the cops to come they lied after I had introduced myself to the "guard" and told him what I was doing he called the Port Authority Police and said "A middle eastern looking man is taking pictures of the bridge after we told him he can't." So that argument is out the window.
There is nothing anyone can do if someone is going to lie to try and jam you up. Obviously the PA Police didn't arrest you, so you have to deal with lying idiots on a case by case basis.
Originally posted by Baron152:
99% of the people these peons talk to will leave with no fight, no argument and no problem. Remember, most of the complaints the security guards are answering from the public who are afraid. The other 1% of the complaints are handled on a case by case basis. |
Where do you get your figures for this assumption? I doubt even 10% are from people calling in I would say that we are told "Somebody saw you we don't know who" is a line given to the cops just to show they have cause to break the law and harass me.
I get this figure because I have been a cop for almost 30 years and know that people call in 24/7 about these things. If it's on television they will call in. I have been dispatched to two calls in my city aboout photographers and both were cleared up without a problem. On guy was taking photos of a 25,000 gallon tank of liquid chlorine at the water treatment plant. He was a supervisor for a water treatment facility in New York and was taking photos of how our system was different then theirs. The other was taking pictures of a new bridge, just because he wanted to. Two minutes and I was on my way. If I had refused to respond to either of these, they would have sent someone else and then fired me.
Originally posted by Baron152:
I have never had a problem either approaching a police officer or security guard and handing them a card and saying something to the effect of "I'm a photographer and going to take some photographs of (enter your unique subject). I know some idiot will think it's illegal and call you and I didn't want to waste your time by making you come out to me. I'll be in a (make or model of car) and won't be long at all. If you need any additional information you know where to find me." |
This is a crock.
IN 1972 I had the pleasure to visit Romania and Chezkslovakia and met a student who spoke English very well, he asked where I was from and I told him I was from New Jersey, he said "That is very close to New York." He knew his geography, I said yes. He then asked a question that changed my life. "How long before you go to New York do you have to tell the police?" Like if I said three days he would have thought what freedom I have. When I told him I didn't have to ask, I could drive anytime I wanted, or take a bus or train, he almost cried, he had no idea what freedom was. Both countries were behind the iron curtain at the time and they never were taught what freedom is.
You can't have a little freedom. You are either free or not.
I fear people are so screwed up about terrorism that they are willing to little by little give up what is an inalienable right ordained by God for a slight measure of so called security. Well you are then no longer free.
Mike |
This is only a crock becuase you want it to be. When I am working as a photographer, I do not identify myself as a cop. But I do have a good attitude, don't look for a fight and never have a problem. you do the math.
As for "you can't have a little freedom" try yelling fire in a crowded movie house or walking into a restricted area of a courthouse or carrying a legally licensed firearm onto a plane. All of this has been restricted due to things that have happened during the history of this country. There were never any security checks on aircraft till the late 60's and early 70's when planes first started getting hijacked. Until then you could carry what you wanted onto any plane without a check. Courthouses first started searching people in the early 80's after several courthouse shootings.
These are "freedoms" that have been lost due to changing times. Make no mistake about it, as soon as the government gets proof of terrorists planning then carrying out an attack and using photos to plan where to place the devices, there will be a law that will forbid photography of any infrastructure and probably require written permission for private property owners.
As for now I am just suggesting that you can catch more flies with honey then with vinegar.
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08/15/2006 04:38:03 PM · #131 |
Interesting story here
What caught my eye:
"Meanwhile, Michigan officials kept three Texans locked up even after Michigan state police and FBI officials said they were apparently wide-eyed tourists rather than would-be terrorists when they photographed the Mackinac Bridge.
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The FBI questioned them for several hours after their arrest, then released a statement saying that "there is no imminent threat" to the bridge, which links Michigan's Upper and Lower peninsulas."
Now also interesting is the fact that on CNN last night, as they discussed the fact that we are not secure from terrorism, they showed video/stills of a lot of sensitive areas and places that we would be hassled photographing. But it was ok for them, and basically, they've already given the terrorists a digest form of all those photographs--they just need a VCR or to find the clip (if it exists on the web).
So now that all those pictures are out, can't they just leave us alone?
They also showed a lot of clips of people saying: "if we don't live our lives without worrying about the terrorists, then the terrorist have won"
Affected me: last night, around sunset time, I was on my bike with my camera near my favorite briges, and I thought, should I take another pic? No, some idiot will report me as suspicious and I'll be hassled--again.
So I guess the terrorists have won. I'm not afraid of the terrorists, I'm afraid of the police. I can't even take pictures in this so called free country anymore.
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08/15/2006 04:44:24 PM · #132 |
I didn't click the link, but I believe I saw the same story. Apparently if you are middle-eastern, have a picture of a bridge on your camera, and are part of some scheme to sell 1000 cellphones you can be thrown in jail.
It makes me pretty sick. I think we should just get it over with and start painting the interment camps in anticipation of new arrivals.
I like the part in the story where the Shurrif said it just doesn't make sense that they had separated the batteries from the phones (unless you want to sell them separately). That must mean they will be used as detonators. However, nobody pauses to ask if one reasonably needs 1000 phones to blow up the Mackinac bridge...
This is something else that makes me sick...
"U.S. prosecutors have dropped terrorist charges against two men arrested after they purchased 600 cellular phones."
followed by...
'Authorities say the men remain in custody in Michigan."
Message edited by author 2006-08-15 16:45:42.
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08/15/2006 04:53:42 PM · #133 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Affected me: last night, around sunset time, I was on my bike with my camera near my favorite briges, and I thought, should I take another pic? No, some idiot will report me as suspicious and I'll be hassled--again.
So I guess the terrorists have won. I'm not afraid of the terrorists, I'm afraid of the police. I can't even take pictures in this so called free country anymore. |
Keep in mind, Neil, you chose not to shoot. You let them win. I think if enough people stand up for their rights without acting like the police have nothing to be concerned about, things might settle into common sense procedures.
What are organizations like the PPA or other photographers groups doing on this issue? Seems like they should be lobbying or something. I would recommend that they take a positive stance and publicize a program where photographers who are out shooting bridges & things can report suspicious activities or things they find in the photos. Authorities should consider the positive advantages of having photos taken by law abiding citizens sow when something does happen, photographers will come forward with their photos and may help in tracking down terrorists or criminals. Look at the JFK assassination - where would they be without all the privae citizens photos and film? Well, bad example, but you see what I mean. :) |
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08/15/2006 04:57:54 PM · #134 |
Originally posted by DrAchoo:
I like the part in the story where the Shurrif said it just doesn't make sense that they had separated the batteries from the phones (unless you want to sell them separately). That must mean they will be used as detonators. However, nobody pauses to ask if one reasonably needs 1000 phones to blow up the Mackinac bridge...
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The plan was fiendishly clever. They were going to hand them out at either end of the bridge for free leading to a massive pile up as all those people called their friends to say "Hey, I just got a free phone.
Once you take away the cell phones what's next. Then they'll just be left to buy huge boxes of nails and throw them out of cars at 74 mph.
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08/15/2006 04:59:55 PM · #135 |
Originally posted by maryba:
This morning I followed my husband to work and shot some photographs of him along the way to work for a portrait assignment.
He works across the street from Independence Hall. After leaving his workplace I went into the park behind Independence Hall and walked around and took a few photographs. When I sat down on a bench, a park ranger came over and we played "20 questions" about what I was up to.
It was ironic that near of a national symbol of freedom and independence I was not truly free. |
And I of all people know how much you look like a model terrorist. |
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08/15/2006 05:07:02 PM · #136 |
As a small Asian female college student who looks like an artist, I am probably unlikely to be stopped for security reasons. I've brought my Maxxum 5000i past security (this was last winter) and took pictures all over the inside of the terminals, of people walking by, of attendents standing around desks, out the window at planes being loaded, etc. If it could be seen, chances are I have a picture of it, and I wasn't being sneaky about it at all. No one said a word (except my boyfriend, who was like 'wtf why are you taking so many pictures of everything).
I should try doing this again in the company of one of my 'suspicious-looking' friends and see what happens :)
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08/15/2006 05:09:52 PM · #137 |
Originally posted by _eug:
And I of all people know how much you look like a model terrorist. |
Speakin' of model terrorists, anyone want to strap on a bomb and pose for my "Stupid, Stupid!" entry?
j/k ofcourse *runs from FBI agents*
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08/15/2006 05:17:28 PM · #138 |
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by _eug:
And I of all people know how much you look like a model terrorist. |
Speakin' of model terrorists, anyone want to strap on a bomb and pose for my "Stupid, Stupid!" entry? j/k ofcourse *runs from FBI agents* |
DOH! And here, I'm feeling like I should be looking over my should for even using the words "model terrorist". You added the word bomb. You're going to a secret prison. |
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08/15/2006 05:21:30 PM · #139 |
Originally posted by _eug:
Originally posted by fotomann_forever:
Originally posted by _eug:
And I of all people know how much you look like a model terrorist. |
Speakin' of model terrorists, anyone want to strap on a bomb and pose for my "Stupid, Stupid!" entry? j/k ofcourse *runs from FBI agents* |
DOH! And here, I'm feeling like I should be looking over my should for even using the words "model terrorist". You added the word bomb. You're going to a secret prison. |
Yup, some red light is going off over the desk of some peon. DPC has now been added to The List...
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08/15/2006 05:25:34 PM · #140 |
| Thank god my government and yours are fighting to give freedom to the rest of the world! |
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08/15/2006 05:28:27 PM · #141 |
"Local prosecutors charged them with collecting or providing materials for terrorist acts and surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes."
Anybody wanna look up what that exactly means? Is surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes a real crime? It seems like it may be all the "reasonable cause" some police may need to get huffy...
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08/15/2006 05:31:55 PM · #142 |
I've taken a lot of shots of and from our airport, but after reading this thread I decided to do a little test. I had to deliver my mother to a flight last week, so while we waited I watched until a security guard was heading my way then pulled out the camera and started shooting, including through the glass doors into the restricted areas.
Nothing... if he even noticed he never gave me a second glance. |
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08/15/2006 05:35:42 PM · #143 |
Originally posted by LoveSpuds:
Thank god my government and yours are fighting to give freedom to the rest of the world! |
There is only so much freedom, if we're going to give some of ours to the rest of the world- we'll just have less.
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08/15/2006 05:38:12 PM · #144 |
So I looked up the phrase "surveillance of a vulnerable target for terrorist purposes" in google. I could not find one link (although I obviously didn't look through them all) not related to the story.
Seems like a phrase that was just "invented" and passed on into the collective consciousness so now we believe it's illegal...
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08/15/2006 05:40:56 PM · #145 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I've taken a lot of shots of and from our airport, but after reading this thread I decided to do a little test. I had to deliver my mother to a flight last week, so while we waited I watched until a security guard was heading my way then pulled out the camera and started shooting, including through the glass doors into the restricted areas.
Nothing... if he even noticed he never gave me a second glance. |
Yes, but you have a point and shoot. Try it with an SLR. Everyone knows terrorists shoot with SLRs.
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08/15/2006 11:09:04 PM · #146 |
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
I've taken a lot of shots of and from our airport, but after reading this thread I decided to do a little test. I had to deliver my mother to a flight last week, so while we waited I watched until a security guard was heading my way then pulled out the camera and started shooting, including through the glass doors into the restricted areas.
Nothing... if he even noticed he never gave me a second glance. |
Yes, but you have a point and shoot. Try it with an SLR. Everyone knows terrorists shoot with SLRs. |
That, and the fact that I'm in Canada... |
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08/15/2006 11:24:05 PM · #147 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Yes, but you have a point and shoot. Try it with an SLR. Everyone knows terrorists shoot with SLRs. |
That, and the fact that I'm in Canada... |
Damn Canucks and their lack of terrorist or enemies... lol |
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08/15/2006 11:33:10 PM · #148 |
Originally posted by _eug:
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Originally posted by nshapiro:
Yes, but you have a point and shoot. Try it with an SLR. Everyone knows terrorists shoot with SLRs. |
That, and the fact that I'm in Canada... |
Damn Canucks and their lack of terrorist or enemies... lol |
Yup! While looking for "transportation" entries, Becky-Lee and I went down to the area where the cruise ships dock and Helijet has their terminal, right next door to the Coast Guard. We snapped pics everywhere, Beck got to sit in a fire truck and on a police motorcycle, the mechanic at Helijet told us what was happening flightwise, and a security guard gave me a nice smile as he commented in passing on my taking pictures. Folks couldn't have been LESS suspicious! :D |
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08/15/2006 11:36:19 PM · #149 |
Originally posted by BeeCee:
Yup! While looking for "transportation" entries, Becky-Lee and I went down to the area where the cruise ships dock and Helijet has their terminal, right next door to the Coast Guard. We snapped pics everywhere, Beck got to sit in a fire truck and on a police motorcycle, the mechanic at Helijet told us what was happening flightwise, and a security guard gave me a nice smile as he commented in passing on my taking pictures. Folks couldn't have been LESS suspicious! :D |
Excellent! So our plan is working! Muwahaaahaaaaa *cough* ha! |
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