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Showing posts 51 - 68 of 68, (reverse)
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 09/13/2003 01:01:32 PM · #51
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If there were truly an all-powerful and loving god, Isaac and Ishmael, those two naughty brothers, would have been long ago given a time-out and sent to their room without dessert.

Hmmm ... maybe that's why they ended up in the desert -- even God makes typos!
 09/13/2003 01:25:20 PM · #52
Alot of photography sites ask that members don't get into religion and politics. Frankly, this is supposed to be about photography.

I read the forums hoping to find more to learn about photography.
 09/13/2003 01:53:33 PM · #53
Originally posted by ScottK:
He's wrong in the sense that, IMO, and contrary to popular myth, Christians and Muslims do not worship the same God. In the Torah/Pentatuch, God speaking through Moses identifies Isaac as the chosen line. In the Koran (based on my very limited understanding), Allah speaking to/through Mohammed identifies Ishmael as the chosen line.


Not to take this thread into even deeper water, but Isaac was chosen to inherit the "Promised Land". Not the chosen line to have an exclusive relationship with the Father. I would recommend you look at Genesis 17:20... God is very specific there. Also, Jesus was rather specific in John 14:2...

I would strongly recommend that you (and everyone) read the Koran (It was spelt Quoran when I read it)... We are all cursed to misunderstand each other until we read each other's Holy Books.
 09/13/2003 02:04:08 PM · #54
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If there were truly an all-powerful and loving god, Isaac and Ishmael, those two naughty brothers, would have been long ago given a time-out and sent to their room without dessert.

Hmmm ... maybe that's why they ended up in the desert -- even God makes typos!


LoL! Actually it has to do with "Free Will" :) And remeber that God most likely preceives time in a way we can not imagine. Any good parent gives kids a chance to come around before the spankings begin. (For details on the spankings, I recommend the book of Revelations)

Note to Clues56 : This site has always permitted the free exchange of ideas regardless of topic which is likely what sets it apart from "most photography sites". Those that don't wish to read threads that drift into the murky waters of politics and religion are welcome to not read those threads :)
 09/13/2003 02:11:10 PM · #55
Also, I believe discussions like this are helpful in a lot of areas in my life, including photography.

The discussions on religion make me study and be able to defend what I believe. They also help me to understand where my fellow wo/man is coming from. When done correctly, and rationally, which I am proud to note that this one is doing, I think, the exchange of ideas is awesome.

Yes, it also helps my photography. To me, pictures are more than a shutter speed or f-stop setting. I have recently started trying to include more emotion/human nature in my shots. By knowing how people feel about certain things, I can do this better.

Plus, on a slow Saturday afternoon, it makes for interesting reading.
 09/13/2003 02:16:09 PM · #56
Originally posted by karmat:
The discussions on religion make me study and be able to defend what I believe. They also help me to understand where my fellow wo/man is coming from. When done correctly, and rationally, which I am proud to note that this one is doing, I think, the exchange of ideas is awesome...

Bravo!
 09/13/2003 02:41:42 PM · #57
Originally posted by karmat:
Since this is still on the front page, I will just add to what Scott is saying. Christianity teaches that Jesus Christ is the son of the one true God. For the Muslim's I know, and admittedly I know much less about Islam than Christianity, Jesus Christ was a good man/teacher/prophet, NOT the son of God. Since believing that Christ is the son of God is paramount to the Christian belief, it seems to me that Allah is not the Christian God, and the Christian God is not Allah.


I certainly have no monopoly on truth, in fact I'm not certain that I have an inkling of it :) But I would suggest that Matthew 12:50 would need to be considered when we decide who is our heavenly siblings :)
 09/13/2003 03:39:44 PM · #58
Originally posted by karmat:
Also, I believe discussions like this are helpful in a lot of areas in my life, including photography.

The discussions on religion make me study and be able to defend what I believe. They also help me to understand where my fellow wo/man is coming from. When done correctly, and rationally, which I am proud to note that this one is doing, I think, the exchange of ideas is awesome.

Yes, it also helps my photography. To me, pictures are more than a shutter speed or f-stop setting. I have recently started trying to include more emotion/human nature in my shots. By knowing how people feel about certain things, I can do this better.

Plus, on a slow Saturday afternoon, it makes for interesting reading.

Couldn't agree more!
 09/13/2003 03:59:37 PM · #59
Am I in the right place for Degree in Philosophy Challenge?
 09/13/2003 04:50:49 PM · #60
Originally posted by Fandango:
Am I in the right place for Degree in Philosophy Challenge?

Yep, this is THE place. Except for maybe here or here.

I almost forgot, it's the place for bad humor. Last week I almost submitted a photo with a view of several churches titled Which is the "In" Sect?. But I didn't ....

Message edited by author 2003-09-13 17:52:02.
 09/13/2003 10:36:13 PM · #61
Just a few years ago I was in college, and secular humanism was (and is) hailed as the "in sect." LOL...that was a good one General...lol

Anyway in sociology, physchology, human services, English comp and lit, and even in pottery, every culture seemed to be encouraged except Christianity. Furthermore I was openly rebuked if I attempted to introduce any kind of christian perspective. This is in a rural community college, shared by two counties.

I refrained from evangelizing freely, however I prayed fervently for the school, including the students and faculty. I did get to share my faith, and my testimony with those who admired the way I reacted with love and respect to opposition. Simply put, some asked me about the peace within me.
My point here is there IS an agenda to eradicate christianity. Alternative lifestyles are condoned, and the moral values that I embrace are rediculed.

As a born-again, spirit-filled, Christ-loving woman I think it's best to keep church and state separate....but across the board. Not just a ban on prayer. I don't want the government teaching our kids religion. I don't want to subject impressionable minds to "everything that comes down the pike." Parents, with the aid of extended family, have the responsibility and right to guide their offspring, until they are of an age to decide for themselves. Call it brain-washing, or propaganda if you must, but children need parameters, and guidence, from those who LOVE THEM, not from those who are promoting their own agendas for various reasons.

About freedom and religion: I wouldn't call myself a religious person, but I am a deeply thankful person of faith. Like Karma and Scott, I am free from hopelessness, despair, addictions, shame, and more, because I realized I am loved by a loving father in heaven who sent his son Jesus Christ, as the sacrificial lamb, to pay a debt I could never pay. My response is to love HIM for it. I love him, because HE loved me first. LOVE...it's all about love! Not rules nor rites. :-) Whew! I'm soooooooooo glad! I could never be good enough on my own...lol
09/13/2003 11:09:30 PM · #62
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Part of the problem is that Christianity is the only major religion to encompass a duty to prostlytize and convert the heathens, rather than acknowledge that those practices and beliefs may just be another manifestation of the One True God. I mean, if there's really one OTG, then that must be who Muslims mean when they say Allah; there certainly can't be any other gods around. Same with Jews and YHWH, witches and Gaia, or whatever. I mean either there's one god, or more than one -- can't have it both ways (the Trinity notwithstanding).

Buddhists haven't been trying to set aside time in school to practice their rituals in the classroom. I don't think Hindus, Muslims, Jews, Jains, Zoroastrian, Rastafarians or anyone else is either. I don't support the active practice of ANY religion in the schools, but I think it is the 2000 year history of Christians forcing their beliefs on others which has seemingly singled them out for particular attention in this situation.


I apologize for quoting GeneralE's entire post, but it's a page or so back and I wanted to make the "connection" obvious.

I think perhaps we should clear up a couple of minor issues that are somewhat semantic and somewhat historical. One, my personal definition of Christian does not include a lot of historical people that have fallen under that label. The Crusades, etc, were carried out by people under a "Christian" name with absolutely NO Christian intention and no indication of Christian love. I do not support the nonsense that was done in "the name of Christ" during that time. So, if this is what you mean when you say "2000 year history of forcing their beliefs on others..." I would gently challenge you to separate me from THAT group. Protestantism is BASED in Christianity, but being a member of a Protestant church does not mean one automatically accepts, believes, or personifies the pure command that Christ left us, which was "love your neighbor as yourself."

Now, the semantic part is this.... Proselytizing is not the same as the "forcing their beliefs on others" that you mention. We "proselytize" because we honestly feel that it is helpful, in the long run, to the person we are "proselytizing." We believe that true Christianity is the real answer to the spiritual search that mankind is on. I have NEVER forced anyone to agree with me, and I have NEVER been in support of a law that would force anyone to perform any Christian ritual, whether it be prayer, baptism, communion, or simply church attendance. The state has no right at all to force anyone to do those things. However, the state has no right at all to forbid me to do those things. The state has no right to forbid me to do those things at home, at work, at school, or at play. The state has no right interfering with my religion at all, as long as my religion does not prempt or violate the rights of another human being or, in most cases, an animal.

I also fully understand the legal dilemma that Karmat was under (she's my wife, you see) with "teaching" Christianity. Christianity is the most easily identifiable teaching in the world - everybody knows that Christians believe in God. Thus, Christianity is the easiest religion to "pick on" from the state's point of view. I agree that Karma could be perceived by some student's as being "the state" and thus she should not propose any of her Christian beliefs to be beliefs of "the state". However, we all have beliefs. I feel it is a terrible imposition of "the state" to imply that Karma can express no Christian beliefs while she is in the employ of "the state".

This post has probably taken a severe turn from whatever it was I meant to say when I started out, because it's hard for me to express how I feel about this without bringing up a lot of issues.
09/13/2003 11:35:51 PM · #63
Originally posted by nards656:
Now, the semantic part is this.... Proselytizing is not the same as the "forcing their beliefs on others" that you mention. We "proselytize" because we honestly feel that it is helpful, in the long run, to the person we are "proselytizing." We believe that true Christianity is the real answer to the spiritual search that mankind is on. I have NEVER forced anyone to agree with me, and I have NEVER been in support of a law that would force anyone to perform any Christian ritual, whether it be prayer, baptism, communion, or simply church attendance. The state has no right at all to force anyone to do those things. However, the state has no right at all to forbid me to do those things. The state has no right to forbid me to do those things at home, at work, at school, or at play. The state has no right interfering with my religion at all, as long as my religion does not prempt or violate the rights of another human being or, in most cases, an animal.


Thanks for the clarification on proselytizing; I probably should have said "forcibly convert." Examples which come to mind are the "Mission Indians" of California, and the Jews who were "baptized" in absentia (and I think posthumously) by the Mormons in Salt Lake City.

I'm glad that you can see a distinction between actual Christian values and the extremely large number of horrendous things done "in the name of" Christianity. The vast majority of "problems" I have are with the institutions of Christianity; they are rarely with the individual practitioners.

At the place I work, we at one time had about 18 people working, including Catholics, Protestants, Muslims, Jews, Agnostics and even a Buddhist; countries of origin/heritage included (besides the US) Pakistan, Phillipines, Iran, Vietnam, Mexico, Japan, Thailand, and Venezuela (the Buddhist!).

Although we have the usual workplace stresses, religion or nationality has never played a part in it; everybody takes off whatever holidays are important to them.

The real problems are the institutions, both religious and secular, whose very existence is predicated on the aggrandizement of power and resources by one group at the expense of another -- perhaps the essence of anti-Christianity. That's also why I'm opposed to unbridled Capitalism. It is a system which is based on the idea that the best motivator for human action is greed for material wealth. Somehow, if the Messiah returns, I doubt he will take up day trading ....
 09/13/2003 11:38:17 PM · #64
Originally posted by Gracious:

About freedom and religion: I wouldn't call myself a religious person, but I am a deeply thankful person of faith. Like Karma and Scott, I am free from hopelessness, despair, addictions, shame, and more, because I realized I am loved by a loving father in heaven who sent his son Jesus Christ, as the sacrificial lamb, to pay a debt I could never pay. My response is to love HIM for it. I love him, because HE loved me first. LOVE...it's all about love! Not rules nor rites. :-) Whew! I'm soooooooooo glad! I could never be good enough on my own...lol


Hehehe, my "religion" allows me to do whatever I want, whenever I want, with whomever I want, whereever I want, however I want. My "relationship," however (the love part Gracious is talking about), changed what I "want."

It's funny. So many people see Christianity (and sometimes religion in general) as a list of dos and don'ts. But I have never felt limited in what I could do/say/be. I guess it is all a matter of perspective and experience.

Message edited by author 2003-09-13 23:39:16.
 09/13/2003 11:39:33 PM · #65
Is it just me or do you need a phd to read this thread?
 09/13/2003 11:43:24 PM · #66
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Somehow, if the Messiah returns, I doubt he will take up day trading ....



Hahahah, and on this, GeneralE, we can agree!
 09/14/2003 07:42:57 AM · #67
Originally posted by Fandango:
Am I in the right place for Degree in Philosophy Challenge?

Yes I think so - anyone know a place where we can send in digital photographs and compete for three coloured Gif files?
 09/14/2003 10:44:34 PM · #68
Originally posted by OneSweetSin:
Is it just me or do you need a phd to read this thread?


Nah, just an open heart and an open mind. :)

Hopefully, the original issue has at least been cleared up - the connection in the minds of some members between freedom and religion. Now wait till you see the Life entries!
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