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07/08/2006 05:58:25 PM · #26
Originally posted by chaimelle:

There is nothing wrong with making a profit, but when you have pretty much cornered the market it would be nice to admit it and not take such HUGE advantage of it!

When it comes to business ethics in the hardware and software industry, there is no Nirvana.

Apple make plenty money too. Who dominates the online music market? Apple. Not to mention their proprietary approach to Digital Rights Management.

And lets say you make the move to Linux running open source software. What will you be running it on? An Intel-based system. And who dominates the chipset industry? Intel.

Lets say you move to Linux running on a something-other-than-Intel platform... What happens to your CRT Monitor when you upgrade? It ends up leaking toxins into the water supply of some third-world country.
07/08/2006 06:03:29 PM · #27
Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by chaimelle:

My problem with Bill Gates is that he overcharges for his software and won't admit his business is a monopoly. If I buy a pc and want to run any type of decent software I have to buy Windows. If I want to create documents and share them with anybody else, I have to buy MS Office. There is nothing wrong with making a profit, but when you have pretty much cornered the market it would be nice to admit it and not take such HUGE advantage of it!


Not quite true.. you can run BeOs and Linux on PCs.
Macs have a "monopoly" in the same sense as OSX is really the only Mac specific OS out there (as windows is for PC).
You can run Windows on a Mac, but only because Windows is such a huge market share that people pretty much *need* to run it, and so it was made so.. if the demand for OSX on a PC was as large, it would be available.

All major companies have problems.. I don't think it's extremely smart, in the end, to base your purchasing on personal feelings about a company's CEO/Owner/whatever.

In the end, you'll go with what works best for you. You sound like you're just trying to get people to convince you to go with something you already want anyway.


I have never used a mac, but after hearing it is wonderful for graphics I just wanted some users to verify. I use Windows and Office all the time. It just irks me that while I don't have to buy a Dell or a Toshiba to have a computer, I pretty much do have to buy Windows.
07/08/2006 06:05:27 PM · #28
Originally posted by chaimelle:

Originally posted by Artyste:

Originally posted by chaimelle:

My problem with Bill Gates is that he overcharges for his software and won't admit his business is a monopoly. If I buy a pc and want to run any type of decent software I have to buy Windows. If I want to create documents and share them with anybody else, I have to buy MS Office. There is nothing wrong with making a profit, but when you have pretty much cornered the market it would be nice to admit it and not take such HUGE advantage of it!


Not quite true.. you can run BeOs and Linux on PCs.
Macs have a "monopoly" in the same sense as OSX is really the only Mac specific OS out there (as windows is for PC).
You can run Windows on a Mac, but only because Windows is such a huge market share that people pretty much *need* to run it, and so it was made so.. if the demand for OSX on a PC was as large, it would be available.

All major companies have problems.. I don't think it's extremely smart, in the end, to base your purchasing on personal feelings about a company's CEO/Owner/whatever.

In the end, you'll go with what works best for you. You sound like you're just trying to get people to convince you to go with something you already want anyway.


I have never used a mac, but after hearing it is wonderful for graphics I just wanted some users to verify. I use Windows and Office all the time. It just irks me that while I don't have to buy a Dell or a Toshiba to have a computer, I pretty much do have to buy Windows.


And I'm saying that you *don't*.. you can get other OSes.. and if you don't because everyone else uses windows and you want to be compatible with them.. well.. how is that exclusively Bill Gates' fault? People choose to use his software.. they don't *have* to.
07/08/2006 06:07:09 PM · #29
Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

I think I like Ford's Better than Chevy's .......

Oooppppps wrong thread ;)

So far the windows programs are not completely efficient on the Mac windows emulator.

The new Intel-based Macs do not run a Windows "emulator" -- they run Windows.

I've used both in a professional graphic design setting for 15 years ... both will work once you get them set up. But if you have a problem or have to install things, Macs are much easier to set up or troubleshoot. Though many people used to complain about the price difference, it really ends up being only about $2-300 when you compare similarly-equipped machines, and that is more than made up for by eliminating the frustrating hours you spend getting the Windows machine to see your networked laser printer.

Also, while Windows machines typically come with a free calendar program and that virus-bait Outlook, a Mac comes with iPhoto, Garage Band, iMovie, and iDVD to provide you with a complete multimedia studio out of the box.

When you eventually upgrade your Adobe products, you should be able to switch platforms.
07/08/2006 06:10:51 PM · #30
Originally posted by jhonan:

Apple make plenty money too. Who dominates the online music market? Apple. Not to mention their proprietary approach to Digital Rights Management.


They are in the shit with that in Europe. Apple has to open up iTunes to all players in France now, the rest of Europe will soon follow that legislation.


07/08/2006 06:12:04 PM · #31
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Originally posted by PhantomEWO:

I think I like Ford's Better than Chevy's .......

Oooppppps wrong thread ;)

So far the windows programs are not completely efficient on the Mac windows emulator.

The new Intel-based Macs do not run a Windows "emulator" -- they run Windows.

I've used both in a professional graphic design setting for 15 years ... both will work once you get them set up. But if you have a problem or have to install things, Macs are much easier to set up or troubleshoot. Though many people used to complain about the price difference, it really ends up being only about $2-300 when you compare similarly-equipped machines, and that is more than made up for by eliminating the frustrating hours you spend getting the Windows machine to see your networked laser printer.

Also, while Windows machines typically come with a free calendar program and that virus-bait Outlook, a Mac comes with iPhoto, Garage Band, iMovie, and iDVD to provide you with a complete multimedia studio out of the box.

When you eventually upgrade your Adobe products, you should be able to switch platforms.


That's the thing. Photoshop CS2 doesn't have a universal version out, (and from what I've heard, they won't until CS3), so you'll be running it on an emulator if you have a Mac.. which has been hit and miss so far. If you're getting a Mac *just* for photo editing (or primarily), I'd wait until PS CS3 is out.. or unless CS2 gets a universal version.. if ever.
07/08/2006 06:13:55 PM · #32
Originally posted by chaimelle:

Originally posted by PaulMdx:

Originally posted by chaimelle:

My problem with Bill Gates is that he overcharges for his software and won't admit his business is a monopoly. If I buy a pc and want to run any type of decent software I have to buy Windows. If I want to create documents and share them with anybody else, I have to buy MS Office. There is nothing wrong with making a profit, but when you have pretty much cornered the market it would be nice to admit it and not take such HUGE advantage of it!


As an experienced software developer, I would tend to disagree with most of that.

Not sure what you disagree with ...

I took the liberty of bolding the bits above.

As a reminder, I work in the software industry. I'm interested to know what you base your opinion on.
07/08/2006 06:14:43 PM · #33
Originally posted by chaimelle:

Anyone familiar with both? I have heard mac is better for photo processing and graphic design, and would like to know what is better about mac. (Specific comparisons would be most helpful, as I have never used a mac.)

Sorry if there have been other threads on this--I couldn't fine one.


try one. I was hooked in 1 minute. part of that because of the pretty Dock (hey, eye-candy!) and because it's just such an easy machine to work on.. I don't have an Intel-thing, but I gotto say i love it. Don't wanna go back to Windows

:)
07/08/2006 06:15:08 PM · #34
here´s a poll, let's just make the decision for her :)


POLL


Message edited by author 2006-07-08 18:17:14.
07/08/2006 06:20:30 PM · #35
Originally posted by DanSig:

here´s a poll, let's just make the decision for her :)


POLL

I've voted!

But what a complex decision this is turning out to be; We have not only the technical issues of OSX versus WinXP to consider, but also the costs of buying new software, the Open Source option, and the business ethics of Bill Gates.
07/08/2006 06:20:36 PM · #36
PC

Because it will get better.

I am testing Vista Beta II (Build 5384) with Office 2007 Beta II... And, just watch out for them... They are so far so good.

Installed them about a month ago, and I never "shut" my computer down, never crashed. I use Gateway 360 Laptop... Vista's power down option simply keeps your laptop running forever (not kidding). Only software installation needs restart or updates, which after each is done, just use it.

I am a windows programmer, so I can not have Mac at this point. I was going to try once, but I just gave up not to waste my money just to "try" something... Macs are (or were) a lot expensive than PCs.
07/08/2006 06:23:51 PM · #37
I've heard that the code for Vista currently weighs in at over 50 million lines of code ... I'm not sure we won't still be at Beta VIII at the turn of the decade ...
07/08/2006 06:26:32 PM · #38
Vista - Lovely UI, finally catching up to where Apple were about 5 years ago.

Now all you have to worry about is; do you have the 128Mb graphics card needed to run it?
07/08/2006 06:28:51 PM · #39
I've been a freelance graphic designer and animator for 17 years.

I can get a Mac or a PC to whatever I want - I've made lots of money with both. Both machines sit on my desk all the time.

A G5 Mac running OSX 10.3 (or better, I've upgraded now) is THE smoothest, most trouble free computer I have ever run.

The free software that comes with it is only a bonus. I've made so many professional presentations with this software - and charged my rates - it's very good software that is very functional.

I will run my Mac for 4 weeks between any kind of crash - Windows needs a good reboot every 2 - 3 days.

FWIW.

Message edited by author 2006-07-08 18:30:10.
07/08/2006 06:35:00 PM · #40
If you want to separate truth from hype in relationship to graphic arts here it is...

Originally posted by digitalknight:

I've been a freelance graphic designer and animator for 17 years.

I can get a Mac or a PC to whatever I want - I've made lots of money with both. Both machines sit on my desk all the time.

A G5 Mac running OSX 10.3 (or better, I've upgraded now) is THE smoothest, most trouble free computer I have ever run.

The free software that comes with it is only a bonus. I've made so many professional presentations with this software - and charged my rates - it's very good software that is very functional.

I will run my Mac for 4 weeks between any kind of crash - Windows needs a good reboot every 2 - 3 days.

FWIW.

07/08/2006 06:40:18 PM · #41
Originally posted by GeneralE:

I've heard that the code for Vista currently weighs in at over 50 million lines of code ... I'm not sure we won't still be at Beta VIII at the turn of the decade ...


Yes, unfortunately it is resource hungry OS... as of now there are much more lines of code than it supposed to be, because of the testing and logging (Beta).

my computer can't use all Vista's gadgets, because of the requirements, but it runs pretty smooth as is. You will need a better graphic card to see it all.

Beta II is the last beta, then first release will come out about in a few months (hopefully), and I will be the first one in line to use one.

Yes it also competing with Apple's UI. They are not the same but feels MACish. Still Apple done a great job with its OS, although (again) unfortunate one OS version wasn't compatible with the next one. I think they fix that problem though.

So, I'll use PC and Vista for a long while ;) until... I don't know :/

Here is my laptop today

Message edited by author 2006-07-08 18:50:48.
07/08/2006 06:54:00 PM · #42
Originally posted by chaimelle:

..How about actual users? Any "I bought a mac and would not go back to a pc because..." testimonials?


We have 5 Macs: an iMac, a G5 Tower with Apple Cinema Display, an eMac, a PowerBook and a 12" iBook. There are no crashes, no virus or other issues I can think of. Both hardware and OS are as integrated and smooth as they come. OS X is as elegant as it is intelligent and a real pleasure to work with. I couldn't imagine having to work with Windows. To illustrate my point:

I took a PS course a year or so ago, and all the work stations were recent model PCs running XP. Both hardware and OS appeared so stark-ugly retro and cumbersome to navigate (particularly without anything like Exposé), it was beginning to frighten me. Although the PCs were up most of the time, mine was down more often than I care to live with (for reasons inexplicable to either me or IT). This experience was so unpleasant, in fact, that I eventually broke down and bought an iBook to bring to school.

As it turned out, I wasn't the only one...
07/08/2006 07:15:51 PM · #43
I was always a pc user until this year. I got tired of all the updates for windows, runninig antispyware, antivirus and updating those, tired of them making my system slow, tired of never seeing my photo look like I want it to and tired of the crashes. I bought a MacBook Pro 17" and I will NEVER return to windows! Will I run XP on this .. NEVER, I don't want the hassle of windows anymore. Just my honest opinion to throw in the pot. I did vote too :)
07/08/2006 07:20:15 PM · #44
We could say anything we want to each other, as I mentioned before (other posts) MAC could be a better system and all that but I wouldn't care right now, because of my job... and it (windows) has been consisten during the years of my usage, even with bugs and all that.

should a, would a, could a... If Apple did make inexpensive systems, if Apple did make compatible OSs, if Apple did stay with businesses (more).. if , if , if...

We PC users probably would love to try Apple computers (MAC), but we probably don't have time to try things out. Sometime it gets really frustrating to fix PCs, bugs, viruses... but they are not totally MS's fault either. PC has been out there more time, more powerful than MAC, it's OS kept same or similar structure for years so others (bad programmers) could develop such head aches (viruses). MS did change a lot to protect it's systems, and because of that other things started to fall (bugs).

That's why for the last step (hopefully), now they are doing Vista.

My point is, don't blame PC users why they don't use (try) MAC, or MAC users not to try PCs because it is more than users opinion.

Think about it. Do you think we (PC users) all are so stubborn to try MAC? or are there other reasons?
07/08/2006 07:22:08 PM · #45
at the moment 75% says buy mac :)

here´s a poll, let's just make the decision for her :)


POLL

07/08/2006 07:25:26 PM · #46
Originally posted by PaulMdx:

Originally posted by chaimelle:

Originally posted by PaulMdx:

Originally posted by chaimelle:

My problem with Bill Gates is that he overcharges for his software and won't admit his business is a monopoly. If I buy a pc and want to run any type of decent software I have to buy Windows. If I want to create documents and share them with anybody else, I have to buy MS Office. There is nothing wrong with making a profit, but when you have pretty much cornered the market it would be nice to admit it and not take such HUGE advantage of it!


As an experienced software developer, I would tend to disagree with most of that.

Not sure what you disagree with ...

I took the liberty of bolding the bits above.



As a reminder, I work in the software industry. I'm interested to know what you base your opinion on.


Sorry, I took a dinner break! Actually, my opinions were formed about 6 years ago. My husband had a computer at his office and the drive crashed. Billy said to keep legal he had to buy a whole new Windows package. Same box, same peripherals, but due to a hardware failure that was to be replaced he would no longer be "legal" as the license went with the drive. At that time prices seemed very high, and logic would dictate, to me anyway, that if I buy software for my pc and I change a defective part on the same pc my license would still be valid. We have our own business and I used to run Lotus and Word Perfect (around 1998-90). A large client insisted we switch to MS Office so we could pass documents back and forth. Things might be different now, but the negative experiences linger. I have not personally puchased any MS product in several years (fortunately my laptop came loaded.)

07/08/2006 08:28:20 PM · #47
Originally posted by focuspoint:

Sometime it gets really frustrating to fix PCs, bugs, viruses... but they are not totally MS's fault either. PC has been out there more time, more powerful than MAC, it's OS kept same or similar structure for years so others (bad programmers) could develop such head aches (viruses).

Didn't Windows come after the Mac GUI -- wasn't that what the big lawsuit was all about?

FWIW at work I am still using a Mac (a rare Mac clone, actually) running System 7.5.3 to image films for offset printing. I can download it from my dual-1.25 GHz G4 (running OS 9.2) using software we bought in 1993.
07/08/2006 08:30:21 PM · #48
Originally posted by chaimelle:

...A large client insisted we switch to MS Office so we could pass documents back and forth.

Most reviews consider MS Office X for Macintosh to be superior to the Windows version.

Message edited by author 2006-07-08 20:30:42.
07/08/2006 08:37:48 PM · #49
Originally posted by GeneralE:

Didn't Windows come after the Mac GUI -- wasn't that what the big lawsuit was all about?


I don't know exact history. I know that MS distributed their OS to manufacturers to be sold with their products, so it became a "monopoly" problem.

I don't know the history, you don't know the history, we both were not in the same building whenever everything was happening... but again, the question is, if MS, PC is "that" horrible, even though computers came with the MS OS, why didn't people switch over right away to mac systems instead of living with MS? What was the reason for that? That's my point, and I think it is clear that whatever happened those days, still apple (mac) had something to do with it, like being more expensive, not having enough applications, MAC OSs not compatible one and other... etc.

do all that make any sense?
07/08/2006 08:46:58 PM · #50
Originally posted by focuspoint:

do all that make any sense?

It makes sense that corporate types are penny-wise and pound-foolish, and if they "knew then what they know now" Chairman Bill might not be the richest man in the world. That and Microsoft's early partnership with Big Blue (IBM), that Bill Gates wears a suit and skinny tie while Steve Jobs wears jeans, and that the Mac was introduced (in the 1984 Superbowl commercial) as the anti-Big Brother corporate-busting rebel.
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