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DPChallenge Forums >> General Discussion >> DNMC Consonantal Kneejerk without Research
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 05/16/2006 01:09:28 PM · #76
I am of the belief that you have to give the photog the benefit of the doubt with challenge entries; I am a liberal constructionist. Always err on the side of teh entry meeting the challenge, is my motto, because the judge may not be as smart as the entrant. But that is because the issue is generally not so well defined;

Example: If the challenge is photograph something blue; leeway can be given for the creativity of photographing blue cheese, even though it is white, I suppose.

But suppose we follow Bearmusic, who makes a great point, Environmental portrait is a "term of art" in the photography world strictly applying to people, well then you fit the challenge in my humble opinion if...

1. you photograph a certain person or type of person in their own appropriate environment, or

2. you creatively challenge the rule, by using personification of an animal or object in a way to suggest a type of person in a fitting environment.

Because of this, I would fall on the stricter side, if your photo was a flower without the #2 criteria. Oh yeah, and even though you make it seem like you have to be stupid to say you don't meet teh challenge; whoa now! reasonable minds can differ.
 05/16/2006 01:10:26 PM · #77
Originally posted by eschelar:
...On the other hand, an "Environmental Portrait" also appears to be a 'niche' type of portrait. One that in its exclusivity does not appear to include animals....

So a portrait of a Dalmatian (dog) sitting on a firetruck wouldn't be an environmental portrait in your opinion? I say it would. JMO of course. ;^)

edit to add: I hope there isn't an image like that in the challenge because I'm not referring to any specific photo - just a concept.

Message edited by author 2006-05-16 13:12:13.
 05/16/2006 01:11:51 PM · #78
Originally posted by blindjustice:
I am of the belief that you have to give the photog the benefit of the doubt with challenge entries; I am a liberal constructionist. Always err on the side of teh entry meeting the challenge, is my motto, because the judge may not be as smart as the entrant. But that is because the issue is generally not so well defined;


When you get to my entry, please give me the benefit of the doubt in the score, too. I meant for my entry to be a 10. If that's not clear to you, that's just because you're not as smart as me. :P
 05/16/2006 01:18:26 PM · #79
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by eschelar:
...On the other hand, an "Environmental Portrait" also appears to be a 'niche' type of portrait. One that in its exclusivity does not appear to include animals....

So a portrait of a Dalmatian (dog) sitting on a firetruck wouldn't be an environmental portrait in your opinion? I say it would. JMO of course. ;^)
Before I answer whether that shot would fit the challenge let me ask you if the subject was aware of the camera? If not it may be only an environmental candid. But maybe the dog is smarter than the voters, so who knows?
05/16/2006 01:21:41 PM · #80
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by blindjustice:
I am of the belief that you have to give the photog the benefit of the doubt with challenge entries; I am a liberal constructionist. Always err on the side of teh entry meeting the challenge, is my motto, because the judge may not be as smart as the entrant. But that is because the issue is generally not so well defined;


When you get to my entry, please give me the benefit of the doubt in the score, too. I meant for my entry to be a 10. If that's not clear to you, that's just because you're not as smart as me. :P


I give this instruction as a general rule; I am in fact, always smarter than the entrant, and I do know shit from shinola, pardon the French vulgarity.
 05/16/2006 01:22:39 PM · #81
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by eschelar:
...On the other hand, an "Environmental Portrait" also appears to be a 'niche' type of portrait. One that in its exclusivity does not appear to include animals....

So a portrait of a Dalmatian (dog) sitting on a firetruck wouldn't be an environmental portrait in your opinion? I say it would. JMO of course. ;^)
Before I answer whether that shot would fit the challenge let me ask you if the subject was aware of the camera? If not it may be only an environmental candid. But maybe the dog is smarter than the voters, so who knows?

Well, I guess the dog would be looking at the camera/photographer as most portrait shots do. Aware of the camera? Not sure. Have to call Dr. Doolittle! ;^)
 05/16/2006 01:22:41 PM · #82
...am I aware of the camera, you ask? Whaddaya think?

05/16/2006 01:23:30 PM · #83
Originally posted by mk:
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by sabphoto:
The end of this challenge cannot come soon enough...but that only means someone will find a reason to not like something in the next challenge.


Hah, yeah, I'm sure the fight is just revving up for Still Life now... And as usual I'll have done everything right and I'll still get a 4.something, maybe a 5.something if I'm lucky ;-)


Perhaps you can start teaching the rest of us how to do everything right.


Everyone was screeching in Cinema about portrait orientation, leaving space for text, and heaven forbid should you use an article like "the" in your entry title, etc etc etc... funny thing is I did all the supposedly "right" things that people were whining about and still tanked. So all the arguing seems to be for naught. The point is that people are going to vote for whatever they're going to vote for and all this bickering about definition, and "right" and "wrong" is really just useless.

But when I figure "right" out once and for all, I'll consider letting you know. After I rack up a few ribbons. ;-)

Message edited by author 2006-05-16 13:32:55.
 05/16/2006 01:26:47 PM · #84
Originally posted by blindjustice:
I am of the belief that you have to give the photog the benefit of the doubt with challenge entries; I am a liberal constructionist. Always err on the side of teh entry meeting the challenge, is my motto, because the judge may not be as smart as the entrant. But that is because the issue is generally not so well defined;

Example: If the challenge is photograph something blue; leeway can be given for the creativity of photographing blue cheese, even though it is white, I suppose.

But suppose we follow Bearmusic, who makes a great point, Environmental portrait is a "term of art" in the photography world strictly applying to people, well then you fit the challenge in my humble opinion if...

1. you photograph a certain person or type of person in their own appropriate environment, or

2. you creatively challenge the rule, by using personification of an animal or object in a way to suggest a type of person in a fitting environment.

Because of this, I would fall on the stricter side, if your photo was a flower without the #2 criteria. Oh yeah, and even though you make it seem like you have to be stupid to say you don't meet teh challenge; whoa now! reasonable minds can differ.


Agreed - when they do, DNMC only as a comment leaves your stamp of disapproval without offering anything else. Enlightenment is good. Ill bite the bullet on my charge of no researche, but stand by my objection to DNMC as the only offering of feedback. It is valueless without even a short explanation.
 05/16/2006 01:28:49 PM · #85
Originally posted by pawdrix:
...am I aware of the camera, you ask? Whaddaya think?

As aware as some people are, maybe even more so...you know, waiting for that doggy treat. ;^)

I would have to say you need a bit more negative space on that shot and the head looking upward is a bit awkward for a pose. Wouldn't you say?
 05/16/2006 01:40:21 PM · #86
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Originally posted by pawdrix:
...am I aware of the camera, you ask? Whaddaya think?

As aware as some people are, maybe even more so...you know, waiting for that doggy treat. ;^)

I would have to say you need a bit more negative space on that shot and the head looking upward is a bit awkward for a pose. Wouldn't you say?


Too much subject, not enough environment. No ribbon for YOU!

Incidentally, a posed shot of a "working dog" clearly in his environment would not be too great a stretch as far as I am concerned.

R.
 05/16/2006 01:42:53 PM · #87
Dog on a fire engine = Environmental Animal Portrait or Environmental Dog Portrait.

Being further subclasses of both Animal Portraits or Dog Portraits and Environmental Portraits.

Portraits as a class of photos could include all of the subclasses, but the sub-genres would probably be exclusive...

I am talking out my ass on this one as can probably be seen.

I am not viewed as a definition setter (ooh, more dog references? I wonder if it looks anything like an Irish Setter? :) by anyone. My point was that these definitions could be easily determined by doing the research mentioned in the title of the thread.

Any further definitions would be up to the artist, it's true, but as has already been mentioned a few times, checking up "Environmental Portrait" does NOT yield results including animals or portraits.

Further, it DOES have a set defintion according to educational standards of photography... And I had nothing to do with that.
 05/16/2006 01:53:58 PM · #88
Let's discuss still life. Isn't still life anything you photograph, since whatever you photograph stays still within the photo? Therefore, still life is nothing but a free study???

~~ tee hee ~~
I hope you know that was just a joke, although a bad one. :)

Message edited by author 2006-05-16 13:54:31.
 05/16/2006 01:54:44 PM · #89
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I would have to say you need a bit more negative space on that shot and the head looking upward is a bit awkward for a pose. Wouldn't you say?


NO Soup for me??? That was a Square Crop out take.

oooops...am I allowed to post an out take??? ;)

BTW, the dogs owners were laughing their asses off while the dogs was posing calling him a "total camera slut". According to them he was posing without question. Though I'd might argue that he was posing for a "doggie treat" and not my lens.

Message edited by author 2006-05-16 14:38:38.
 05/16/2006 01:55:41 PM · #90
Originally posted by eschelar:
Dog on a fire engine = Environmental Animal Portrait or Environmental Dog Portrait. ...

Fireman on fire engine = Environmental Fireman Portrait
Fireman on fire engine = Environmental Person Portrait
Red Headed Fireman on fire engine = Environmental Red Headed Fireman Portrait

It's all subjective and can be subclassed.
As for references for challenge entries, the challenge description is a great place to start and one shouldn't have to look much further than that if worded correctly.
 05/16/2006 02:10:38 PM · #91
You are a big man Mr. Blanton; enlightenment is the key! Just as a flower points towards the sun, it welcomes "its environment" and react to the light of the flash during its "portrait."

kudos to you!
 05/16/2006 03:00:18 PM · #92
Are we all ready for this transition?
 05/16/2006 03:01:45 PM · #93
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
... Incidentally, a posed shot of a "working dog" clearly in his environment would not be too great a stretch as far as I am concerned.
You're biased on this point. Did Karma put you up to making that post? Did you get a biscuit? LOL
 05/16/2006 03:13:04 PM · #94
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
... Incidentally, a posed shot of a "working dog" clearly in his environment would not be too great a stretch as far as I am concerned.
You're biased on this point. Did Karma put you up to making that post? Did you get a biscuit? LOL


Honestly, who gives a biscuit to a bear? Bears like honey and salmon. ;-)
 05/16/2006 03:25:12 PM · #95
Originally posted by karmabreeze:
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
... Incidentally, a posed shot of a "working dog" clearly in his environment would not be too great a stretch as far as I am concerned.
You're biased on this point. Did Karma put you up to making that post? Did you get a biscuit? LOL


Honestly, who gives a biscuit to a bear? Bears like honey and salmon. ;-)

...and monkeys!
 05/16/2006 03:35:39 PM · #96
Originally posted by coolhar:
Originally posted by Bear_Music:
... Incidentally, a posed shot of a "working dog" clearly in his environment would not be too great a stretch as far as I am concerned.
You're biased on this point. Did Karma put you up to making that post? Did you get a biscuit? LOL


Yes, actually; she put me up to it. No biscuit, however; the gravy train flows the other way in this house...

To be serious, Karma was trained for 9 months, and I spent 2 weeks on-campus with her at the end of those 9 months; they were training ME, you see... And it is interesting to note that a very significant message during that training is that "This dog is NOT a pet; it is a working animal with a job to perform, and don't you ever forget it. Reinforce that at all times." So the dog's in a sort of middle-earth, see? It has some "human" functions it's trained to perform, just as a K-9 Corps animal does.

This is why I said in MY mind that's not too great a stretch; I am admittedly biased in that direction. On the other hand, a shot of a salmon leaping up a waterfall, in MY mind, just wouldn't qualify as a "portrait", no matter how environmental the image was.

But everyone has their own song, and their own dance as well :-)

R.

R.
 05/16/2006 04:31:04 PM · #97
OMG MY SCORE HAS DROPPED A MILLION POINTS I'M SHOOTING YOU ALL IN THE NECK WITH MY HOT NEW RAZOR ARROWS!!!!!
 05/16/2006 04:37:59 PM · #98
Originally posted by mk:
OMG MY SCORE HAS DROPPED A MILLION POINTS I'M SHOOTING YOU ALL IN THE NECK WITH MY HOT NEW RAZOR ARROWS!!!!!


Are they pink?
 05/16/2006 04:39:29 PM · #99
Originally posted by mk:
OMG MY SCORE HAS DROPPED A MILLION POINTS I'M SHOOTING YOU ALL IN THE NECK WITH MY HOT NEW RAZOR ARROWS!!!!!


The neck is not the best part to aim for.
 05/16/2006 04:40:18 PM · #100


R.
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