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08/19/2003 09:56:48 AM · #26 |
Same old thing on every challenge.. people add on their own interpretations. As if it isn't hard enough to come up with a shot that fits the challenge, voters decide to add on their own criteria. Of course some shots fit better than others, but to knock points off someone for using sky as negative space? Come on. Until we actually get tutorials on the topic before the challenge starts, I think we could all be a little more fair in voting. Remember Remie's "Cow Space"? It used a ton of sky as negative space, but that sky is what gave the shot "wow".
JasonPR, thanks for going back and adding the comments :) Much as I enjoy getting a 10, it's much more useful to get a comment along with the score. |
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08/19/2003 10:04:42 AM · #27 |
| yes, it turns out, there is a thin line. Some entries showed us that negative space does not always mean empty space. Conversely, some with empty space showed us that this does not always constitute negative space (e.g. when the negative space is evenly distributed around a centered object). |
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08/19/2003 10:12:23 AM · #28 |
Can we stop giving our interpretations of how we're voting a challenge while it's going on? I see a trend that every time a thread like this happens, scores drop in relation to how the thread is going.... sky shots are going down, or this or that. Let's leave this type of discussion after the challenge is over so as to not influence how others may or maynot vote during the challenge.
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08/19/2003 10:16:31 AM · #29 |
We've had this conversation before when Setzler gave out scores without comments, but I would prefer not to receive scores without comments.
Message edited by author 2003-08-19 10:16:48. |
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08/19/2003 10:24:30 AM · #30 |
| Two of my favorite shots from this contest are utilizing sky as negative space. WHAT the negative space is isn't important--it's HOW it's used that is. |
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08/19/2003 10:33:21 AM · #31 |
Originally posted by indigo997:
Of course some shots fit better than others, but to knock points off someone for using sky as negative space? Come on. Remember Remie's "Cow Space"? It used a ton of sky as negative space, but that sky is what gave the shot "wow". |
Exactly. 'Cow Space' had humour and great use of sky, and I think some have tried to emulate that - but without the humour. Some shots in this challenge simply feature a subject and loads of sky/space/colour - that's a cop-out in my book.
As the challenge advice says "Be creative and have fun."... |
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08/19/2003 11:41:34 AM · #32 |
I would agree that the specific discussions while voting is going on are not a good idea. It seems that it could be very influential in a person's voting and especially difficult for someone new making their first comments. What if the comment was in effect being shot down by one of the forum "experts"?
Message edited by author 2003-08-19 11:42:23. |
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08/19/2003 11:44:46 AM · #33 |
The problem with these discussions is that some people are trying to defend their own interpretation of the challenge.
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08/19/2003 11:48:49 AM · #34 |
The objection is not to content but to timing
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08/19/2003 11:58:06 AM · #35 |
I think, (and I hate to fan the flames) that all elements in a photo should serve a purpose, including negative space, whether great or small.
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08/19/2003 12:01:24 PM · #36 |
disregard post - I am playing with attempting to get signature attached
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08/19/2003 12:34:21 PM · #37 |
still trying to get clickable signature
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08/19/2003 12:50:30 PM · #38 |
Originally posted by amsmyth:
I would agree that the specific discussions while voting is going on are not a good idea. It seems that it could be very influential in a person's voting and especially difficult for someone new making their first comments. What if the comment was in effect being shot down by one of the forum "experts"? |
I'm intrigued by this logic. Are we to assume that we should all freeze our thinking while the challenge runs? Is the intention to retain ignorance or a closed mind until the challenge is over and the votes are cast, and comments made - fairly or not? I think this is ridiculous and that people's minds should be influenced by fresh viewpoints - whenever they come.
For instance if someone's perception of negative space is just sky (lots of it) and many non-sky pictures are voted down because of this, then that is not doing justice to those other entries or to the person voting. What's the big deal and who loses really?
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08/19/2003 12:54:19 PM · #39 |
Why not leave it to the individual voter and not put a spin on it? Let them decide...
I could care less if it's debated after voting, but during is lame in my opinion. Do people stand outside your voting booth during elections screaming over the curtain, vote for our canidate?!
Originally posted by Jon Lucas:
Originally posted by amsmyth:
I would agree that the specific discussions while voting is going on are not a good idea. It seems that it could be very influential in a person's voting and especially difficult for someone new making their first comments. What if the comment was in effect being shot down by one of the forum "experts"? |
I'm intrigued by this logic. Are we to assume that we should all freeze our thinking while the challenge runs? Is the intention to retain ignorance or a closed mind until the challenge is over and the votes are cast, and comments made - fairly or not? I think this is ridiculous and that people's minds should be influenced by fresh viewpoints - whenever they come.
For instance if someone's perception of negative space is just sky (lots of it) and many non-sky pictures are voted down because of this, then that is not doing justice to those other entries or to the person voting. What's the big deal and who loses really? |
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08/19/2003 01:08:14 PM · #40 |
| Do people vote politically without ANY awareness of their chosen party's policies? I sincerely hope not (of course they do!) but we're not recommending particular candidates here - just discussing general 'politics' (to continue your analogy). Don't forget, no one knows whose pictures they are until voting ends anyway. |
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08/19/2003 01:12:21 PM · #41 |
But once in the booth you're left to your own ideas. Let the voters vote. The week during shooting the topic is debated, and after voting is where it should be debated, but during voting, leave the voters to their own conclusions.
-danny
Originally posted by Jon Lucas:
Do people vote politically without ANY awareness of their chosen party's policies? I sincerely hope not (of course they do!) but we're not recommending particular candidates here - just discussing general 'politics' (to continue your analogy). Don't forget, no one knows whose pictures they are until voting ends anyway. |
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08/19/2003 01:18:40 PM · #42 |
| Hmm, did I join DPC to be competitive or to learn to be a better photographer? Why, the second of course! Being competitive is fun and serves to motivate me, but this site is primarily about learning to me. So, if we all discuss issues that come up during a particular challenge, this seems healthy and a useful way to learn as a community how to take better pictures. If this were highly professional and huge prizes were at stake, I'd agree that we would have to stop commenting during challenges, but this is not the case. If you feel that your style of picture is being put down in the forums during a challenge, then feel free to defend that style. Let's keep everything in perspective. |
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08/19/2003 01:28:20 PM · #43 |
| IMHO, trying to sway the vote one way or the other is about as competetive as it gets. Downing publicly all photos with sky as negative space is, in fact, swaying the thinking of the voters, especially those new to the site/voting process, who may be intimidated by people they perceive as being more experienced. If you wish to learn and/or teach, then do so without such erroneous blanket statements. Site specific examples (not challenge photos, of course) both pro and con and why you think one works and one doesn't. That is the only way others learn. |
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08/19/2003 01:29:18 PM · #44 |
Originally posted by Jon Lucas:
Originally posted by amsmyth:
I would agree that the specific discussions while voting is going on are not a good idea. It seems that it could be very influential in a person's voting and especially difficult for someone new making their first comments. What if the comment was in effect being shot down by one of the forum "experts"? |
I'm intrigued by this logic. Are we to assume that we should all freeze our thinking while the challenge runs? Is the intention to retain ignorance or a closed mind until the challenge is over and the votes are cast, and comments made - fairly or not? I think this is ridiculous and that people's minds should be influenced by fresh viewpoints - whenever they come.
For instance if someone's perception of negative space is just sky (lots of it) and many non-sky pictures are voted down because of this, then that is not doing justice to those other entries or to the person voting. What's the big deal and who loses really? |
This makes good sense to me. Let the winds blow...
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08/19/2003 02:57:20 PM · #45 |
Originally posted by Pidd:
IMHO, trying to sway the vote one way or the other is about as competetive as it gets. Downing publicly all photos with sky as negative space is, in fact, swaying the thinking of the voters. |
1. The site is called DPChallenge - it's competitive!
2. No one has 'downed' all images with sky. There are lots of them that use sky brilliantly but there are a vast number of sky shots and this was used as an example, alongside those using space/colour - which I think covers most of them, except texures, grass, woodland, etc,etc....
:)
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08/19/2003 03:02:15 PM · #46 |
I don't think we should stop any dialogue about the methodologies of photography before during or after a challenge. I do, however, think that it would be more mature to select a photo or photos that are not in the challenge and present them inline with a post and explain what you see as positive or negative and why. Referring to challenge entries in a marginally veiled manner could be seen as an attempt to attack other challenge submissions and, thus, to enhance your own score. If instruction and dialogue are the goals, discuss the technique; not the contest submissions (at least not during a contest). As a relatively new member I can see how it would be disheartening for someone to hear any number of the more prolific artists bagging on the tyro's photo even without knowing who submitted it.
I'm not down on the issue of discussion or disagreement over different interpretations and/or styles. I'm not against timing. I do think it crass that some new entrant may see highly active discussions in which their style is debated openly with proponents either for or against using terms that show more vitriol and fervor against an opposing commentor rather than regarding the actual technique used.
Just my $0.02
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08/19/2003 03:11:14 PM · #47 |
Well said... better then I put it :-)
-danny
Originally posted by KevinRiggs:
I don't think we should stop any dialogue about the methodologies of photography before during or after a challenge. I do, however, think that it would be more mature to select a photo or photos that are not in the challenge and present them inline with a post and explain what you see as positive or negative and why. Referring to challenge entries in a marginally veiled manner could be seen as an attempt to attack other challenge submissions and, thus, to enhance your own score. If instruction and dialogue are the goals, discuss the technique; not the contest submissions (at least not during a contest). As a relatively new member I can see how it would be disheartening for someone to hear any number of the more prolific artists bagging on the tyro's photo even without knowing who submitted it.
I'm not down on the issue of discussion or disagreement over different interpretations and/or styles. I'm not against timing. I do think it crass that some new entrant may see highly active discussions in which their style is debated openly with proponents either for or against using terms that show more vitriol and fervor against an opposing commentor rather than regarding the actual technique used.
Just my $0.02 |
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08/19/2003 03:21:17 PM · #48 |
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
We've had this conversation before when Setzler gave out scores without comments, but I would prefer not to receive scores without comments. |
Ah, I didn't realize the conversation had already been had and a verdict had been reached. I liked when I got those comments from John, BTW. However, I can see how it would bother some people. It wasn't that I didn't want to leave a comment it's just that I much prefer to leave a comment after reading the photographer's comments on their own photo, seeing where it is and how it was done and any thoughts behind it, etc. In light of the response, I have gone back and I'm starting to add comments to all the scores I gave and I apologize if I don't get around to some of them. Is a score not better than nothing though? |
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08/19/2003 04:00:34 PM · #49 |
Originally posted by JasonPR:
Originally posted by BobsterLobster:
We've had this conversation before when Setzler gave out scores without comments, but I would prefer not to receive scores without comments. |
Ah, I didn't realize the conversation had already been had and a verdict had been reached. I liked when I got those comments from John, BTW. However, I can see how it would bother some people. It wasn't that I didn't want to leave a comment it's just that I much prefer to leave a comment after reading the photographer's comments on their own photo, seeing where it is and how it was done and any thoughts behind it, etc. In light of the response, I have gone back and I'm starting to add comments to all the scores I gave and I apologize if I don't get around to some of them. Is a score not better than nothing though? |
My personal preference is not to receive a comment with only a score rather than nothing. However, this is just my preference, so don't act purely on my voice. My reasoning is that a score on it's own gets me thinking too much about why the person gave that score, and really isn't very useful. |
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08/19/2003 04:18:23 PM · #50 |
Originally posted by crabappl3:
Well said... better then I put it :-) |
I thought you put it very well Danny!
But Kevin, just because someone has differing opinions to yours doesn't mean they're immature! And this: "Referring to challenge entries in a marginally veiled manner could be seen as an attempt to attack other challenge submissions and, thus, to enhance your own score." is presumptious and OTT. I'm sorry that you're so upset about the matter. I made an observation, that's all. |
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