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08/10/2003 06:43:43 PM · #51 |
well, yeah. i guess i'm harsh. i didn't say that i give them out to (what i consider to be) decent photos. i said i give them out quite frequently. i've got my own scale in my head.
i guess for me, the challenge topic weighs quite heavily while voting. it's hard to give a high score to a beautiful photo that has nothing to do with the challenge. seems unfair to the people who really tried to meet the challenge.
ah well. to each his own, i suppose.
rob |
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08/10/2003 07:41:55 PM · #52 |
| wut can i say? sum ppl are jus stoopid fuckheads- i hate illitirate idiouts |
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08/10/2003 07:43:31 PM · #53 |
| wut can i say? some ppl can just be fathead fucheads i hate illitarte idiouts |
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08/10/2003 09:17:25 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by muckpond:
well, yeah. i guess i'm harsh. i didn't say that i give them out to (what i consider to be) decent photos. i said i give them out quite frequently. i've got my own scale in my head.
i guess for me, the challenge topic weighs quite heavily while voting. it's hard to give a high score to a beautiful photo that has nothing to do with the challenge. seems unfair to the people who really tried to meet the challenge.
ah well. to each his own, i suppose.
rob |
Challenge topics are there to spur creativity, i.e. for photographers who find it stimulating to work within the confines of given topics. I do NOT find it hard to give a high score to a beautiful photo. I find it quite natural.
To mark a great photograph below one of lesser and even mediocre quality, just because I, the voter, fail to see topicality, seems either ignorant or arrogant, depending on motive. It effectively curbs creativity AND fosters a narrow-minded conformism, none of which contribute to our ideal: to grow and become better photographers.
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08/10/2003 09:21:48 PM · #55 |
Can the format for the voting be changed so that if you vote a 1,2,9 or 10 that a comment must be made for the vote to be counted? That way those who low vote just for the sake of it have to pass comment (which will probably be too hard for them) and therefore not bother, but if you have a legit gripe about the pic the person who took it would at least know what they may need to do to improve. Same for high votes could apply, as i feel if it rates a WOW score why not say what appeals to you about it.
Sound good??? |
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08/10/2003 09:50:35 PM · #56 |
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08/10/2003 09:59:38 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by Luckydog:
Can the format for the voting be changed so that if you vote a 1,2,9 or 10 that a comment must be made for the vote to be counted? |
This has been discussed often and discarded
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08/10/2003 10:05:04 PM · #58 |
dOriginally posted by tarique:
Originally posted by Luckydog:
Can the format for the voting be changed so that if you vote a 1,2,9 or 10 that a comment must be made for the vote to be counted? |
This has been discussed often and discarded |
discarded for what reason/s? we can rally for it...i think (my opinion)..its one of the best solution...why our submissions are rated high or low...its a fair thing. thanks |
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08/10/2003 10:05:49 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
To mark a great photograph below one of lesser and even mediocre quality, just because I, the voter, fail to see topicality, seems either ignorant or arrogant, depending on motive. |
Everyone gets to vote the way they like... If you feel the challange aspect of the site is meaningless, then don't consider it when you vote. If someone else feels the challenge aspect to be important they are free to vote accordingly.
What I find "ignorant or arrogant" is thinking everyone must vote alike...
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08/10/2003 10:11:12 PM · #60 |
Originally posted by imagesloyola:
dOriginally posted by tarique:
Originally posted by Luckydog:
Can the format for the voting be changed so that if you vote a 1,2,9 or 10 that a comment must be made for the vote to be counted? |
This has been discussed often and discarded |
discarded for what reason/s? we can rally for it...i think (my opinion)..its one of the best solution...why our submissions are rated high or low...its a fair thing. thanks |
Have you commented on all the 1 2 9 or 10 votes you've given? Lead by example... Personnally, I enjoy commenting on several images I've given 6 or 7 to, while I've not been inspired to comment on a 1 or a 10...
By the way, if you force people to comment, for any reason, you won't get comments worth getting...
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08/10/2003 10:15:14 PM · #61 |
I think we should change to an alphabetic voting format A-Z, that way noone gets any ones;)
Seriously I havn't given any ones, but also must say that I have given only one or two 10's, they are both extreme votes and should only be used in extreme instances. I also agree that they (and perhaps 9 and 2) should be required to have comments, after all if you feel that strongly you should be able to explain why!
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08/10/2003 10:19:40 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
What I find "ignorant or arrogant" is thinking everyone must vote alike... |
thank you. exactly my point. i have my own system. if i wanted to comment on whatever people felt like submitting, i'd spend more time on photosig.
forcing people to comment will not only degrade the quality of comments, but it will lower the number of total votes and most people will probably just start voting in the 3-8 range. look at how backed up the Critique Club is -- and that's full of people who WANTED to comment. |
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08/10/2003 10:24:37 PM · #63 |
i realize i'm probably getting the reputation of being the bitter, crusty member of the group here and i apologize.
seems like we just keep rehashing the same old issues.
the voting scale is the way it is. people can vote how they want to vote. you can choose to participate if you want, and you can choose how emotionally wrapped up in it you get. we have an incredible site and an excellent community going here -- full of long-timers (in Internet time) and quality that you'd be hard-pressed to find elsewhere. let's just quit bitching about it.
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08/10/2003 10:48:14 PM · #64 |
| 1,2 9,10 comments...what will happen? probably 3-8 voting. I had taken a tally of all the images I have done to this point, the good news the ones I have recieved are far a few between. I have put some bad stuff out. some because I goofed some because folks have not found appealing. It is not hard to to gleen the overall opinion of ones own shot from even just a handful of comments. I am more generous than some and less than others. as so many here have stated "to each his own" Zeuszen has done a wonderful job with some of his statements here and has left comments on a couple of my pics. do I agree with his assesments? does not matter(though I enjoyed) what matters is we learn and we accept others truths, that is what the base of this site is all about. IMHO :) |
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08/10/2003 11:31:10 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by Luckydog:
Can the format for the voting be changed so that if you vote a 1,2,9 or 10 that a comment must be made for the vote to be counted? That way those who low vote just for the sake of it have to pass comment (which will probably be too hard for them) and therefore not bother, but if you have a legit gripe about the pic the person who took it would at least know what they may need to do to improve. Same for high votes could apply, as i feel if it rates a WOW score why not say what appeals to you about it.
Sound good??? |
This is an awesome idea!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Of course I do this already, but I would sure like to see it done from others.
Message edited by author 2003-08-10 23:32:33.
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08/10/2003 11:53:55 PM · #66 |
My apologies for covering a topic which has been buried previously. I don't spend much time in the forums here, basically i look at titles of the ones on the DPC homepage and if it catches my eye i will have a peek.
In regards to the voting on low and high score comments, i have seen a number of posts saying that there are some who just go in a put 1's on the entries 'cause they can. I know if it was me (which it isn't) i would say "bugger that" and would probably not vote at all. For those that do give a low score legitimately they have the chance to say "i don't like this picture because...but if you tried doing...". I know i have only done 3 challenges but i have seven 1's, no comments for any of them and i don't know what people thought was bad about them. Yes i have given some 1's (not many though) and I am more than happy to "practice what i preach", sometimes i am rushed to get through the entries but i would just have to find time to comment if i felt that strongly about a picture.
Sorry for waffling on. This is not a bleat about my own entries, just an idea that popped into my head while reading this thread. |
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08/11/2003 12:21:46 AM · #67 |
If you require comments from people who don't want to make them you will get unhelpful comments like "I gave you a 1" or "10-great."
I would rather hear only from those who feel motivated to comment, not those who feel compelled. I suffer the irritation of knowing some people vote in what seems (to me) an irrational way, in exchange for the freedom to vote as I please regardless of their values. |
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08/11/2003 12:40:10 AM · #68 |
If you require comments on 1's, 2's, 9's and 10's (not that the 9's and 10's probably need it), I feel most people would start leaving 3 - 8. The good thing about this would be that instead of having threads that say "Six one's --- why" Or "18 1's????" they would say, "I got 45 3's, and not one comment."
Or as someone else mentioned, some would, if only as a matter of principle, reply "1" as their comment. Requiring comments is not going to change anything. Either people will comment or they won't. We have the range 1 - 10 for a reason. Yes, I have given one's, though not many. I also try to leave a comment for each of my lower votes (which are usually around 3 or 4), BUT sometimes time is just too much of an element.
My best advice (okay, my only advice) to anyone who is terribly concerned about the individual numbers is to try and interpolate what the voter may have been saying. You got a one? That may mean you picked a subject that voter just didn't like, you used a technique that voter just didn't like, your pic was in the wrong place at the wrong time -- the choice is yours.
For the original purpose of this thread, I do not know why someone would give it a one. I was not one of them, so I will not venture guesses either. Some people just see things differently.
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08/11/2003 12:45:03 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by myqyl:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
To mark a great photograph below one of lesser and even mediocre quality, just because I, the voter, fail to see topicality, seems either ignorant or arrogant, depending on motive. |
Everyone gets to vote the way they like... If you feel the challange aspect of the site is meaningless, then don't consider it when you vote. If someone else feels the challenge aspect to be important they are free to vote accordingly.
What I find "ignorant or arrogant" is thinking everyone must vote alike... |
I didn't say, I found 'the challenge aspect of the site meaningless, neither do I consider challenge topics meaningless. Instead I qualified my meaning in the parts of the quote you chose to leave out.
The logic of the closing statement here also fails me, given the context. No one, including myself or anyone else I am aware of is denying anyone's rights. As a matter of fact, I equally reserve a right to act and speak according to my convictions and self-imposed obligations.
Equally, if a particular manner of voting causes, IMHO, undue harm to others, not to mention to the publicly embraced ideals of this site, would you expect me to stand by and resign to numbers or the noise of one post? The way I see it, anyone who does not share a given perspective, can exercise his/her right to object. I would, generally, remain quite open to reasoning with a basis in thought and consideration rather than to one of sheer condemnation, flip-in-reply. |
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08/11/2003 12:59:00 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Equally, if a particular manner of voting causes, IMHO, undue harm to others, not to mention to the publicly embraced ideals of this site, would you expect me to stand by and resign to numbers or the noise of one post? The way I see it, anyone who does not share a given perspective, can exercise his/her right to object. I would, generally, remain quite open to reasoning with a basis in thought and consideration rather than to one of sheer condemnation, flip-in-reply. |
I think it is the opinion/experience of the site admins/owners that no method of voting currently allowed by site rules will cause anyone undue harm, and in fact recognizes the basic ideal of this site so allow EQUAL participation to all who abide by the TOS, regardless of location, equipment, experience, esthetic, religious or political values, or photographic ability.
Participants are ONLY required to be polite and interested in learning more than they currently know about photography.
The very best thing YOU can do (IMO) to promote the site's ideals is to offer CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions for improving photos you opine might be "better" some other way than as the artist prepared them. |
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08/11/2003 01:23:00 AM · #71 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
If you require comments from people who don't want to make them you will get unhelpful comments like "I gave you a 1" or "10-great."
I would rather hear only from those who feel motivated to comment, not those who feel compelled. I suffer the irritation of knowing some people vote in what seems (to me) an irrational way, in exchange for the freedom to vote as I please regardless of their values. |
We will never know what will happen until we try. Right? It can't be any worse then it is now. Really think about it. The comments are getting worse and we are getting less of them. If we go with this system then at least we know who is giving what and why. I think we need a change!
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08/11/2003 01:45:50 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Equally, if a particular manner of voting causes, IMHO, undue harm to others, not to mention to the publicly embraced ideals of this site, would you expect me to stand by and resign to numbers or the noise of one post? The way I see it, anyone who does not share a given perspective, can exercise his/her right to object. I would, generally, remain quite open to reasoning with a basis in thought and consideration rather than to one of sheer condemnation, flip-in-reply. |
I think it is the opinion/experience of the site admins/owners that no method of voting currently allowed by site rules will cause anyone undue harm, and in fact recognizes the basic ideal of this site so allow EQUAL participation to all who abide by the TOS, regardless of location, equipment, experience, esthetic, religious or political values, or photographic ability.
Participants are ONLY required to be polite and interested in learning more than they currently know about photography.
The very best thing YOU can do (IMO) to promote the site's ideals is to offer CONSTRUCTIVE suggestions for improving photos you opine might be "better" some other way than as the artist prepared them. |
When the publicly embraced ideals of this site conincide with one's own, the opinions/experience of the site admins/owners, although valid for what they are, can hardly determine a personal viewpoint uttered in a public forum, not even if obstructed without regard for either voice or place.
For the event that I failed to make myself clear, I am promoting my own views on a matter I likely care as much about as others. Inserting the acronym 'IMHO', apparently was insuffcient. |
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08/11/2003 01:51:52 AM · #73 |
We could certainly try it as a challenge with "special rules."
Make it so that if you don't follow the commenting rules, your own photo will receive a "flat-rate" vote of 3.3333 or something (NOT DQ -- that's no "penalty").
But I really think if everyone spent their time writing constructive comments instead of complaining about PERCEIVED voting improprieties the problem would largely go away.
Leading by example is far more effective than coerced behavioral change, unless you have a truly captive population (prisoners, soldiers, and students primarily). |
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08/11/2003 01:57:28 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
For the event that I failed to make myself clear, I am promoting my own views on a matter I likely care as much about as others. Inserting the acronym 'IMHO', apparently was insuffcient. |
Sorry, I understood that, and appreciate your taking the time to articulate your ideas, whether they agree with mine or not. I was just expressing my opinion that your energies might be more efficiently expended towards achieving your goals.
I don't argue with your desire for more extensive and useful feedback for our photos, only with the strategy of obtaining it. |
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08/11/2003 03:58:21 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by Sonifo:
We will never know what will happen until we try. Right? It can't be any worse then it is now. Really think about it. The comments are getting worse and we are getting less of them. If we go with this system then at least we know who is giving what and why. I think we need a change! |
Actually, it was tried... At one time people were required to vote on 80% (I think) or comment on 20% (if memory serves me) or they could not submit to the next challenge... It resulted in a dramatic increase in the comment "ok".
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