Challenge Description vs Rules - DPChallenge Forums

03/28/2006 02:40:53 PM · #177

Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by dleach:

But then we would miss out on:

Lets not go down the 'faking backgrounds on your monitor' path please

Yeah, tell me how this is different than just doing it originally in photoshop? Same goes with printing your background out. Seems like a huge double standard for a photography site...

If Gordon hadn't forbidden it, I would ask how it's different than using a backdrop that you hang, etc. but I don't want to suffer his wrath. Also, that would totally be thread hijacking.

Brent_Ward

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L USM

03/28/2006 02:43:42 PM · #178

Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by dleach:

But then we would miss out on:

Lets not go down the 'faking backgrounds on your monitor' path please

Yeah, tell me how this is different than just doing it originally in photoshop? Same goes with printing your background out. Seems like a huge double standard for a photography site...

If Gordon hadn't forbidden it, I would ask how it's different than using a backdrop that you hang, etc. but I don't want to suffer his wrath. Also, that would totally be thread hijacking.

IT's not different, the end result is the same, it's not even more difficult than doing it in photoshop.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

03/28/2006 02:44:04 PM · #179

Do we really want to go down this path? In an earlier threat as to how P & S shooters could do this challenge, the answer came back "just make it LOOK like 2 seconds passed." Our eyes are the judge of wether a photo met the challenge or not. Lets keep the EXFI data for the one thing we can't see, the date taken, and judge the photgraphs presented in the challenge as they are presented to us. There is nothing natural about this process of photography, if an artifice creates the illusion of meeting the challenge, then the challenge has been met.

Brent_Ward

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L USM

03/28/2006 02:47:31 PM · #180

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

Unless the challenge says use "exactly a 2 second shutter speed". No illusion in that statement...

Message edited by author 2006-03-28 14:47:56.

03/28/2006 02:49:03 PM · #181

Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by posthumous:
Think of it this way: restricting a photographer to use a 2 second exposure forces him to use a certain setting on his/her camera, which could be a very valuable learning experience. Forcing a photographer to take a picture of something yellow is utterly useless.

Therefore, the "yellow" challenge, and all challenges that don't involve camera settings or very specific camera techniques (like shallow DOF), are about creating a finished product that creatively addresses the challenge restrictions. Who cares if the acrobat's clothes are color-shifted if he managed to do a believable job? God bless him for doing all that extra work.

Even shallow DOF, though, should not be DQable because a) the viewer has a chance at telling if it is used and b) it's just too damn hard to verify.

I don't think people tend to view the challenges in terms of how useful they will be in the future but more in terms of how much effort it took. I don't feel like the current outrage is because poor so-and-so didn't learn how to correctly use a 2 second exposure and now they will be going further into the photography world without having honed their skills - it's because the people who accepted the challenge and worked with it are angry that someone who made less effort beat them.

I would think color, for a color-specific challenge (I'm not just talking about any old color adjustments) would be similar. If you went to the effort of seeking out something a certain color, only to be beaten by someone who took a good picture and then just shifted the color to fit, you probably aren't going to be consoled by the fact that taking pictures of things a certain color is a completely useless activity. We don't value technical ribbons more than the other ones, regardless of the learning involved.

But as Gordon pointed out, that's a difficult rule to write. Maybe we shouldn't do color-specific challenges anymore.

If a voter thinks that a "Yellow" challenge is about the skill and effort of finding something yellow, that voter is beyond help anyway. Let's not dumb down the challenges to the lowest common denominator.

Gordon

RIM BlackBerry Curve

Canon EF 85mm f/1.8 USM

03/28/2006 02:49:29 PM · #182

Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Unless the challenge says use "exactly a 2 second shutter speed". No illusion in that statement...

Other than the illusion that it was a rule, rather than the reality that it was a guideline.

03/28/2006 02:50:40 PM · #183

Originally posted by posthumous:

Shoot, I think you just called me dumb.

BrennanOB

Canon EOS-1D Mark II

03/28/2006 02:50:57 PM · #184

I would further argue the point but I have to go shoot some blue flowers so i can color shift them for the yellow challenge ;)

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

03/28/2006 02:52:47 PM · #185

Originally posted by posthumous:

... If a voter thinks that a "Yellow" challenge is about the skill and effort of finding something yellow, that voter is beyond help anyway. Let's not dumb down the challenges to the lowest common denominator.

Well, it IS at least half the battle, isn't it? ;^)

03/28/2006 02:55:23 PM · #186

Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by posthumous:
If a voter thinks that a "Yellow" challenge is about the skill and effort of finding something yellow, that voter is beyond help anyway. Let's not dumb down the challenges to the lowest common denominator.

Shoot, I think you just called me dumb.

Oops! Not intended! Let me put it this way. Having a challenge called "Yellow" with no description is different than having a challenge with a description called "shoot something yellow." I have no problem in that case with your desire to have the object really be yellow. The solution, however, is not to DQ based on yellow, but to add an Extra Rule stating that color shifts are not allowed for this challenge. Then the voters can decide if something's yellow.

03/28/2006 02:57:33 PM · #187

Originally posted by posthumous:

Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by posthumous:
If a voter thinks that a "Yellow" challenge is about the skill and effort of finding something yellow, that voter is beyond help anyway. Let's not dumb down the challenges to the lowest common denominator.

Shoot, I think you just called me dumb.

Oops! Not intended! Let me put it this way. Having a challenge called "Yellow" with no description is different than having a challenge with a description called "shoot something yellow." I have no problem in that case with your desire to have the object really be yellow. The solution, however, is not to DQ based on yellow, but to add an Extra Rule stating that color shifts are not allowed for this challenge. Then the voters can decide if something's yellow.

Okay, then we agree. :)

fotomann_forever

03/28/2006 02:58:13 PM · #188

Originally posted by mk:

D'oh! LOL ... sorry :-)

03/28/2006 03:00:30 PM · #189

Originally posted by fotomann_forever:

Dear footinmouth_forever,

I knew it was a great idea to hire you to apologize every time I put my foot in my mouth! I just hope I don't keep you too busy that you neglect your ShutterPug trashtalking duties. Enclosed find your first payment.

fotomann_forever

03/28/2006 03:02:44 PM · #190

Originally posted by posthumous:

Oh yeah, thanks for the check, got to get back to trashing Puggers.

Keep your toes clean,
Peace :-)

seenosun

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 50mm f/1.4 USM

03/28/2006 03:09:12 PM · #191

Originally posted by muckpond:

Originally posted by mk:
both seem to kind of miss the point of the challenge.

exactly.

I saw this post in the thread and I'm not sure I understand...
Do you mean the DPC definition of "Exactly"
or are you referring to everyone else in the worlds definition?

It appears somewhat ambiguous...Is your comment regarding "Rules" or "Details".
Please clarify your point.

dleach

Canon EF-S 17-85mm f/4-5.6 IS USM

03/28/2006 03:09:46 PM · #192

Originally posted by BrennanOB:

I would further argue the point but I have to go shoot some blue flowers so i can color shift them for the yellow challenge ;)

Dang....

GeneralE

Canon PowerShot S3 IS

Canon 12x IS USM (S3 IS built-in Lens) -- 36-432mm (35mm EQ)

03/28/2006 04:18:34 PM · #193

The challenge doesn't say "Take a picture of a yellow object" -- it deliberately and explicity says only "Yellow"

How can that not mean that the topic is intentionally left open to every creative interpretation of "yellow" a photographer can come up with? If the challenge proposer had wanted it limited to yellow objects, they would have written it the first way.

Why is it that, despite specific guidlines asking that people "creatively interpret" challenge topics, nine out of ten threads which sprout upon release of a new challenge seek to limit what are "acceptable" interpretations?

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

03/28/2006 04:24:34 PM · #194

My posts were more related to every previous color-specific challenge we've had which has specifically said COLOR...not so much the upcoming one which is the first one without a description. No one is trying to limit interpretations...perhaps you are misreading.

zeuszen

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

03/28/2006 04:58:04 PM · #195

Originally posted by GeneralE:

...Why is it that, despite specific guidlines asking that people "creatively interpret" challenge topics, nine out of ten threads which sprout upon release of a new challenge seek to limit what are "acceptable" interpretations?

It shows that the system works very nicely for participating photographers but fails those among voters who seek to penalize entries on the basis of topicality.

This stance is, apparently, encouraged by an unfortunate wording in the rules: "While voting, users are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge and base their rating accordingly."

If the phrase were amended to "While voting, participating photographers are asked to keep in highest consideration the topic of the challenge" or something similar, we wouldn't, IMO, have to suffer ongoing strife an aggravation on this subject.

Message edited by author 2006-03-28 17:15:14.

Leighroy

Tamron AF 18-200mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di II for Canon

03/29/2006 12:48:18 AM · #196

Originally posted by Rgarcia:

Even though I think this site is great and I've learned a lot from all of you guys and gals, I think that there is much slack about Challenge description and the photos submitted.
I don't think it's fair with people that commit themselves to follow the Challenge guidelines to be beaten by a beatiful sunset, macro or portrait. I for instance, if can't comply with the Challenge description I choose not to enter.

Why don't we make a test for maybe two weeks? Let's make an exception to the rules so if Challenge criteria is not met with, the picture is DQ'ed to see what happens...

I would like to ammend my posting after a few of the comments.

I didn't enter or vote and as a result I made the above comment without realising what the details of the challenge said.. "Take a photograph using a shutter speed of exactly 2 seconds."... I stand corrected. The DPC needs to change and make the details something that needs to be adhered to. My apologies.