Challenge Description vs Rules - DPChallenge Forums

03/28/2006 01:33:42 PM · #151

Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Because time & shutter speed are a constant variable (within +- 1/3 of a stop) and color is totally subjective with the whole variable of monitor calibration.

Yet colour is a precisely defined quantity too.

The hue of that portion of the visible spectrum lying between orange and green, evoked in the human observer by radiant energy with wavelengths of approximately 570 to 590 nanometers;

Doesn't seem to hard to DQ on that as well.

03/28/2006 01:35:45 PM · #152

Originally posted by tryals15:

As far as why these, and not others... The policy now is: DNMC is not ground for a DQ, but it is grounds for a low vote. With technical challenges sometimes the voter is blind to wether or not the image complies to the Challenge Details, and is therefore robbed of the right to vote a DNMC low.

I think a lot of us are feeling duped b/c we assumed everyone was playing by the same rules, and then afterwards we found out we weren't...

So you feel duped when you find out you shot the required shutter time and someone else didn't but you feel okay when you find out that you shot the required color and someone else just color shifted their shot? If the photo has been colorshifted, isn't the voter blind to whether it technically complies?

03/28/2006 01:36:31 PM · #153

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Special rules (again, very limited/rare), should only apply to quantifiable items that can be looked at and a decision made yes/no without any subjectivity. Where specific instructions have been given for a challenge and it can be determined without question (EXIF data) that the instructions (read rules) were met or not.

Okay, I can accept that.

(But I still think color shifting for color-specific challenges should be illegal too. :) )

03/28/2006 01:39:35 PM · #154

I was going to bring up the abstract macro one as well.... at first thought I think of being close to something really small to make them big but wouldn't being 10 feet away from abstract style building be an abstract macro?

Not an easy job being an SC or creating these challenges... I think the last rule in the list of rules should be "when in doubt, have fun, be creative"

fotomann_forever

03/28/2006 01:39:40 PM · #155

Originally posted by mk:

(But I still think color shifting for color-specific challenges should be illegal too. :) )

Can that be discussed AFTER Yellow III ;-)

03/28/2006 01:41:42 PM · #156

Originally posted by mk:

(But I still think color shifting for color-specific challenges should be illegal too. :) )

I tend to agree, but it is probably effectively unenforceable. How much shift is too much ? (Hint: if you ever edit an image you have probably introduced a colour shift)

Sure, it is easy to define the outlying cases - red peppers going blue and that sort of thing, but is it okay to shoot something purple and nudge it towards blue to make it fit 'blue' more clearly ? How about changing the colour of smoke to make the picture more interesting ?

How about an orangey-yellow that you drift out the red to make more yellow ? Is that okay ? Too much ? What's the boundary ? Given you have to actually write this down, enforce it and communicate it effectively to people entering challenges before you see what they've done, it would be interesting.

Message edited by author 2006-03-28 13:43:56.

Carl Zeiss Planar T 50mm f/1.7

03/28/2006 01:42:51 PM · #157

Originally posted by dleach:

I think the last rule in the list of rules should be "when in doubt, have fun, be creative"

and personally I think that's the only bit that should be normative. But that's also why I end up in the minority of most of these discussions :)

tryals15

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

03/28/2006 01:48:34 PM · #158

Originally posted by mk:

Originally posted by tryals15:

As far as why these, and not others... The policy now is: DNMC is not ground for a DQ, but it is grounds for a low vote. With technical challenges sometimes the voter is blind to wether or not the image complies to the Challenge Details, and is therefore robbed of the right to vote a DNMC low.

I think a lot of us are feeling duped b/c we assumed everyone was playing by the same rules, and then afterwards we found out we weren't...

So you feel duped when you find out you shot the required shutter time and someone else didn't but you feel okay when you find out that you shot the required color and someone else just color shifted their shot? If the photo has been colorshifted, isn't the voter blind to whether it technically complies?

ok, good point... I guess in my mind "yellow" is more on the creative side of our challenge spectrum, while 2 second exposure is very much on the technical side... Which leaves a lot to subjectivity... hmmm.

Yellow isn't about set your camera to yellow, and only yellow to get your image. 2 sec. is. Maybe you could draw the line at settings on the camera?

In all honesty, I don't care where the line is drawn, as long as the challenge details are backed up with special rules if they are worded to need them... (ie shutter speed of exactly 2 seconds...)

hopper

Canon EOS-80D

Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS USM

03/28/2006 01:50:47 PM · #159

Originally posted by mk:

(But I still think color shifting for color-specific challenges should be illegal too. :) )

this actually pisses me off more when i see a ridiculously colored sunset photo that pulls hundreds of ooo's and ahhh's from newbies who don't realize they've been duped.

:)

Brent_Ward

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L USM

03/28/2006 01:56:00 PM · #160

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Because time & shutter speed are a constant variable (within +- 1/3 of a stop) and color is totally subjective with the whole variable of monitor calibration.

Yet colour is a precisely defined quantity too.

The hue of that portion of the visible spectrum lying between orange and green, evoked in the human observer by radiant energy with wavelengths of approximately 570 to 590 nanometers;

Doesn't seem to hard to DQ on that as well.

Only if the monitor is displaying properly. It's not as easy as that grayscale bar for monitor adjustment.

A person's monitor could be displaying the yellow spectrum as orange or mustard...

03/28/2006 01:56:11 PM · #161

Originally posted by hopper:

Originally posted by mk:
(But I still think color shifting for color-specific challenges should be illegal too. :) )

this actually pisses me off more when i see a ridiculously colored sunset photo that pulls hundreds of ooo's and ahhh's from newbies who don't realize they've been duped.

:)

Don't ever use velvia then ;) You'll feel duped, straight out of the camera.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

03/28/2006 01:58:38 PM · #162

Think of it this way: restricting a photographer to use a 2 second exposure forces him to use a certain setting on his/her camera, which could be a very valuable learning experience. Forcing a photographer to take a picture of something yellow is utterly useless.

Therefore, the "yellow" challenge, and all challenges that don't involve camera settings or very specific camera techniques (like shallow DOF), are about creating a finished product that creatively addresses the challenge restrictions. Who cares if the acrobat's clothes are color-shifted if he managed to do a believable job? God bless him for doing all that extra work.

Even shallow DOF, though, should not be DQable because a) the viewer has a chance at telling if it is used and b) it's just too damn hard to verify.

03/28/2006 01:59:01 PM · #163

Originally posted by hopper:

Careful. This is where the personal preference comes in (and the individual votes). The newbie wasn't duped. They just happen to like the particular style of the photo... which you (and others) don't.

What if you set the white balance of your camera to tungsten for that sunset or dusk photo? That will create an original/raw image with some interesting colors.

posthumous

Canon EOS-40D

Canon EF 50mm f/1.8 II

03/28/2006 02:00:11 PM · #164

Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Originally posted by Gordon:

Originally posted by Brent_Ward:

Because time & shutter speed are a constant variable (within +- 1/3 of a stop) and color is totally subjective with the whole variable of monitor calibration.

Yet colour is a precisely defined quantity too.

The hue of that portion of the visible spectrum lying between orange and green, evoked in the human observer by radiant energy with wavelengths of approximately 570 to 590 nanometers;

Doesn't seem to hard to DQ on that as well.

Only if the monitor is displaying properly. It's not as easy as that grayscale bar for monitor adjustment.

A person's monitor could be displaying the yellow spectrum as orange or mustard...

Not to mention the fact that you can create green, for example, by putting blue dots next to yellow dots. The fact that people are even considering DQs for a Yellow challenge astounds me.

hopper

Canon EOS-80D

Canon EF 35mm f/2 IS USM

03/28/2006 02:06:49 PM · #165

Originally posted by dleach:

The newbie wasn't duped. They just happen to like the particular style of the photo... which you (and others) don't.

What if you set the white balance of your camera to tungsten for that sunset or dusk photo? That will create an original/raw image with some interesting colors.

Actually, in many cases, I believe the newbie was/is duped. I've seen comments where people believe the scene looked exactly as they were/are viewing it.

And how the "altered look" was created makes no difference to me. I'm speaking of extreme cases, also, I add saturation and contrast to my own photos. I'm not claiming to be some kind of "purist", just pointing out that things aren't always as they look.

Brent_Ward

Canon EOS-5D

Canon EF 85mm f/1.2L USM

03/28/2006 02:14:17 PM · #166

Originally posted by dleach:

Originally posted by hopper:

Originally posted by mk:
(But I still think color shifting for color-specific challenges should be illegal too. :) )

this actually pisses me off more when i see a ridiculously colored sunset photo that pulls hundreds of ooo's and ahhh's from newbies who don't realize they've been duped.

:)

Careful. This is where the personal preference comes in (and the individual votes). The newbie wasn't duped. They just happen to like the particular style of the photo... which you (and others) don't.

What if you set the white balance of your camera to tungsten for that sunset or dusk photo? That will create an original/raw image with some interesting colors.

Enhancing colors has been done for eons with each new film type. Color sells, it's a simple fact.

03/28/2006 02:18:35 PM · #167

Originally posted by posthumous:

I don't think people tend to view the challenges in terms of how useful they will be in the future but more in terms of how much effort it took. I don't feel like the current outrage is because poor so-and-so didn't learn how to correctly use a 2 second exposure and now they will be going further into the photography world without having honed their skills - it's because the people who accepted the challenge and worked with it are angry that someone who made less effort beat them.

I would think color, for a color-specific challenge (I'm not just talking about any old color adjustments) would be similar. If you went to the effort of seeking out something a certain color, only to be beaten by someone who took a good picture and then just shifted the color to fit, you probably aren't going to be consoled by the fact that taking pictures of things a certain color is a completely useless activity. We don't value technical ribbons more than the other ones, regardless of the learning involved.

But as Gordon pointed out, that's a difficult rule to write. Maybe we shouldn't do color-specific challenges anymore.

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

03/28/2006 02:23:05 PM · #168

Originally posted by mk:

<>

But as Gordon pointed out, that's a difficult rule to write. Maybe we shouldn't do color-specific challenges anymore.

But then we would miss out on:

Artifacts

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

03/28/2006 02:32:06 PM · #169

Hypothesis:
The existing rules and guidlines of DPC already covers all situations in this discussion thread. No changes are necessary

Basis for Analysis:
1-Rules: A set of criteria that must be met for challenge entries to be legal. Failure to follow the rules can result in a DQ in accordance with pre-defined DQ procedures.

2-Description: Challenge descriptions provide photographers guidlines for designing challenge entries. Descriptions are not subject to DQ procedures.

3-Extra Rules: A clause that can be added to any one challenge that may specify additional rules that are subject to existing pre-defined DQ procedures.

Analysis:
Pictures that were not exactly 2 second exposures or taken between 4am-5am local time in the "2 Second" and "4:00-5:00am" challenges were singled out for disqualification for "cheating".

The "Extra Rules:" clause is designed specifically to handle these situations. No "Extra Rules:" were specified in these challenges, therefore there were no rules violations and therefore no "cheating".

There could have been an "Extra Rules:" clause such as "Exposures must be between 1.5 and 2.5 seconds duration according to EXIF data" or "In addition to being taken during the challenge week the picture must be taken between 3:00am-6:00am local time according to EXIF data".

The purpose of the "Extra Rules:" clauses is to prevent people from calling for DQs every time they don't like the way the photographer choses to meet a challenge. That would be anarchy.

"Extra Rules:" are enforced under existing DQ procedures.

Someone reports a possible violation and the SC investigates. There would be no need to require photographers to always submit EXIF data and certainly would not require the SC to validate EXIF for every image. That isn't done now for date violations. When there is reason to suspect violations then original files with EXIF data are requested and reviewed by the SC as per existing procedures. No change.

Take the Yellow challenge example. One interpretation suggested a photographer might want to capture "cowardice" as a form of being yellow. If the "spirit" of the challenge is that you take a picture of something containing the color yellow then specify it as a rule in an "Extra Rules:" clause. If the photographer wants to capture cowardice then they are still allowed to do so as long as the color yellow is included. Extreme color manipulations for the yellow challenge would be subject to SC interpretation just like other rule violations are now.

If the site administrators deem a specific requirement to be unenforceable then no "Extra Rules:" clause would be specified and, without one, voters must understand that photographers are being given more flexibility in their interpretations.

Conclusion:
No changes are needed.

03/28/2006 02:32:43 PM · #170

Originally posted by dleach:

But then we would miss out on:

Lets not go down the 'faking backgrounds on your monitor' path please

03/28/2006 02:34:26 PM · #171

Originally posted by stdavidson:

Conclusion:
No changes are needed.

Other than sensible application of the extra rules, when applicable
and a bit more attention when setting challenges.

Which, I'm said to say, hasn't happened for many years.

03/28/2006 02:34:35 PM · #172

Originally posted by Gordon:

Lets not go down the 'faking backgrounds on your monitor' path please

LOL

03/28/2006 02:34:52 PM · #173

Originally posted by Gordon:

Lets not go down the 'faking backgrounds on your monitor' path please

But I still have three more hours at work...