Require Comment On 1 Votes (example included)

03/23/2006 11:02:33 AM · #1

I think it may have been suggested before but I think it would be a good thing to require a comment for any votes of 1.
This would do two things.
1) Help explain all the "WTF"s when you see 1s that seem outta place
2) Reduce the amount of unwarranted 1s b/c the voter may have a second thought or doesn't want to comment (reducing the level of anonymity of a 1 vote somewhat).

You can demo an example here: //swankryan.tripod.com/index.htm

It requires just a couple of lines to the do_vote() javascript function used to post the vote.
The below just checks if the vote was a 1 and if the comment is blank or the default of "Enter your comment here...".
If so, it pops an alert box saying "Votes of 1 require a comment" and focuses the comment box.
Any vote other than 1 just submits like today.

function do_vote(p_vote)
{
if((p_vote == 1) && (document.frmVote.COMMENT.value == 'Enter your comment here, and then cast your vote...' || document.frmVote.COMMENT.value == ''))
{
alert('Votes of 1 require a comment, please.');
document.frmVote.COMMENT.focus();
}else{
alert('You voted a ' + p_vote + ' and left a comment of ' + document.frmVote.COMMENT.value)
/*document.frmVote.action = '//www.dpchallenge.com/challenge_vote_image.php?IMAGE_ID=&VOTE=' + p_vote + '';
document.frmVote.submit();
*/
}
}

Above has an extra alert to show your vote and your comment if you have not entered a 1 or if you did enter a 1 and left a comment.
The submit line is commented out.

dassilem

Nikon D90

03/23/2006 11:15:46 AM · #2

As it was pointed out to me that people would thus stop truely voting ones so it would not be any point.

I like the idea but maybe somehow post an automatic anonymity if you vote low and leave a comment.

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

03/23/2006 11:20:31 AM · #3

You would still have anonymity.
There is nothing that ties you directly to the 1 vote unless that is the only comment you got.
And so what?
If you have the gall to leave a 1 you should have the balls to leave a comment and not be afraid to back it up.

I actually like the idea of requiring a comment for a 1 or 2 as the low votes is where I'd prefer to have comments.
"Nice pic" and "good comp" does nothing for me other than making me happy.
What I want to is know why I got 2 tens and 6 ones.
The tens usually leave comments but the people that think I suck leave nothing.

Canon EOS-20D

03/23/2006 11:24:15 AM · #4

Then people will just start leaving junk comments like "..." and "bad" and "ok."

My personal opinion is that people would be more willing to leave comments on lower scoring photos if there wasn't so much calling out of commenters in the forums or nasty PMing.

dassilem

Nikon D90

03/23/2006 11:25:06 AM · #5

I don't disagree with you...in fact I posted in
This thread yesterday
and was quickly pointed out that it was a 'bad' idea.

Some of the basis was if a comment is required then it automatically posts your name. Therefore it removes any anonymity.

I was very discouraged as my Footwear was #264 of 267 and I only got 2 comments!

Carl Zeiss Planar T 50mm f/1.7

03/23/2006 11:35:38 AM · #6

Originally posted by mk:

Then people will just start leaving junk comments like "..." and "bad" and "ok."

That is definately something that would happen.
But the alert would give the user more time to ponder the reason for their vote and if they consitently leave comments like "bad" "..." etc. they can be called out and be made to look like an ass.

Originally posted by mk:

My personal opinion is that people would be more willing to leave comments on lower scoring photos if there wasn't so much calling out of commenters in the forums or nasty PMing.

Two things I have to say to that.
1) Grow up people.
2) Grow some THICKER skin.

Why are people so consumed with the anonymity issue?
My opinion is if you are afraid of being identified then you have a problem with the way you are voting and should rethink it.
If you truly think the pic deserves a 1 then you should explain it.
And for some shots that get a bunch of 1's, a simple comment such as "horrible" might suffice b/c of how bad it is.
But I've seen many that got a bunch of ones that should never have gotten less than a 4.
Again, Forcing a comment would:
1) Help explain all the "WTF"s when you see 1's that seem outta place
2) Reduce the amount of unwarranted 1's b/c the voter may have a second thought and when forced to explain realizes it actually isn't a worthless photo.

tryals15

Canon EOS-1Ds Mark II

03/23/2006 11:41:07 AM · #7

OK, so give them all 2s now, instead... =]

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

03/23/2006 11:42:40 AM · #8

Originally posted by rswank:

... they can be called out and be made to look like an ass. ...

Wonderful! Geesh.

talmy

Nikon D300s

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 16-85 f/3.5-5.6G ED VR

03/23/2006 11:43:07 AM · #9

I used to comment on all my 1,2, and 3 votes, like the rules state, but now I've stopped doing so. The reason is that virtually none of the photographers marked my comments as "helpful". I figured why should I be punished for taking my time to comment on dreadful photographs?

I expect most people know already why their poor scoring photos got such poor scores. Just have to be a bit self-critical rather than overly proud. My worst entry, 261 of 267 in Footwear was

for which I realized going into the challenge that an entry with invisible footwear would probably be treated as DNMC even though the subject was footwear.

skewsme

Canon EOS-6D

Canon EF 200mm f/2.8 L II USM Lens

03/23/2006 11:43:46 AM · #10

But how would you keep people from typing comments like:

ewju!

(yes I've gotten that one...)

Panasonic LUMIX-DMC ZS100

03/23/2006 11:50:20 AM · #11

Originally posted by talmy:

The reason is that virtually none of the photographers marked my comments as "helpful". I figured why should I be punished for taking my time to comment on dreadful photographs?

I'm confused, how exactly are you being "punished" by not having the comment marked as "useful"?
Do you really care what your commentsMade to commentsDeemedHelpful ratio is?
What a useless stat.
You are rewarded somehow when it's marked "useful"?
What a meaningless tracker.
A lot of people mark EVERY comment as helpful, what does that do?

wheeledd

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

03/23/2006 11:51:15 AM · #12

I don't think that comments on very low votes (1s and 2s) are very helpful. When I get a low vote, I realize that the voter sees the world differently than I do. I know that there are people who see differently and there is not much I can learn from their explanation.

It would be different if I were getting a bunch of low votes. Then it would be important to find out why others aren't responding positively to my work. But even then, I think I would learn much more by posting a message asking for a critique than I would from the very brief comments that people usually leave.

For a while I was giving comments on every photo I rated low. I tried to give substantive comments from which I hoped the photographer could learn something. One of my comments was posted in a forum as an example of a totally unhelpful comment and I also got some PMs from unhappy people.

I really agree with what mk says: "My personal opinion is that people would be more willing to leave comments on lower scoring photos if there wasn't so much calling out of commenters in the forums or nasty PMing."

I also started this thread yesterday about commenting.

--Dan

kirbic

Canon EOS R5

Canon RF 24-70mm f/2.8 L IS

03/23/2006 11:52:08 AM · #13

The idea of requiring comments on low votes comes up with astounding regularity. It really won't happen here. That's not to say it's an entirely bad idea, not at all, it's just that in practice it is not workable here... it has more negative aspects than positive. Yes, you'd get (maybe) some indication of whya vote is so low, and yes, it *might* cause a voter to think once in a while, but:
- It would skew voting. People would in large part just stop using those votes
- It would result in junk comments, as pointed out by mk
- Most importantly, it would solve a problem that doesn't exist. The statistics of DPC voting show clearly that there are incredibly few "outlier votes" on the low (or high) end. Most of the low (and high) votes are the expected "tails" of the statistical vote distribution. In other words, opinions vary, that's the way it is.
I hope I don't come off as negative here, I'm not meaning to be. I'd like to encourage folks to look at the voting histograms on their images (and others' images!) and really study them to see what's going on. They can be as informative as the luminosity histogram on your camera... oh, and you should be studying that too! :-)
I think we need a FAQ page that addresses this question. Hmmm...

Tamron SP AF 28-75mm f/2.8 XR Di for Canon

03/23/2006 11:53:40 AM · #14

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by rswank:
... they can be called out and be made to look like an ass. ...

Wonderful! Geesh.

I'm not saying that for all 1 voters.
But if you were the person that voted the 1 here then you do deserve to be called out.

glad2badad

Apple iPhone 16 Pro

Lensbaby Sweet 35 Optic

03/23/2006 11:55:50 AM · #15

Originally posted by rswank:

I thought maybe there was a root cause for the OP, maybe I'm right, maybe not, but I took a look at the comments and scores on your last challenge entry. It seems there were two camps on the image - those that didn't know what it was (myself included), and those that immediately recognized the subject matter and "got it" (or connected).

I would further venture that many of the 1's and 2's were from voters that saw the image and thought it was too dark or just didn't know what it was (therefore maybe falling into the DNMC group). Now if people didn't know what it was and said something like "Can't really tell what I'm looking at." - that would be helpful, or would it?

Bottom line, I think if you give some thought to the comments you did receive you could see how the end scoring result came about. JMHO.

Canon EOS-20D

03/23/2006 11:57:00 AM · #16

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by glad2badad:

Originally posted by rswank:
... they can be called out and be made to look like an ass. ...

Wonderful! Geesh.

I'm not saying that for all 1 voters.
But if you were the person that voted the 1 here then you do deserve to be called out.

That definitely makes me want to comment.

dassilem

Nikon D90

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

03/23/2006 12:12:48 PM · #17

thanks for your post mk. I know this will be of help to me.

eschelar

Canon EOS-7D

03/23/2006 12:20:39 PM · #18

I've thrown two submissions out there recently and I didn't get too many comments... Oddly, since putting them out there, I've gotten more comments on my older pictures than on my challenge pictures. Funny stuff.

Anyhow, I've been really trying to keep up with my personal general policy of either returning a comment or, if the pictures are beyond my skill level to give meaningful critiques and have already received plenty of accolade, sending a thank-you PM.

I've received two thank-your PM's from some phenomenal photographers (the first of which was Joey L.) and I realized that it really means a lot to me to have my opinion appreciated by guys who really know their stuff.

And I seem to recall that my comment to Joey wasn't a terribly positive one about his Coca cola box entry...

Anyhow, I do notice though that plenty of them respond almost fearfully as if I'm going to take offense at what they have said and I have found a need to address this specifically in my PM notes. It feels like a bunch of people apologizing to each other sometimes and I've taken some negative feedback from people who thought I was overly patronizing to them when I was just trying to avoid an issue.

So I keep coming back to the thought that instead of just a Critique club box, it would be very helpful to have a red-yellow-green or similar system.

When Submitting, you could check one of 4 boxes.

Red: I am a little sensitive to comments. Please comment with care.
Yellow: I am happy to receive helpful comments and pleasantries.
Green: I appreciate pleasant comments, but I am really looking for in-depth comments. Feel free to be as strong as you like in your detailed critiques. I welcome it and will not take offense.

A fourth box could be for the CC.

If a person felt that they didn't really have time to read comments and really didn't think it was such a bad picture, a Red box might be checked.

If a person is quite happy with the current status quo with comments, the yellow might be best.

If a person is really interested in improving and is GENUINELY not afraid of a little "It's ugly because you the redness in the light emphasizes all of the redness in her eyes and the mottling of her face." on a self-portrait, then hammer down on that Green Light. But you had better not be posting about harsh comments.

Likewise, a brief note would probably be helpful to encourage people to evaluate their comments to prevent hollow or simply hurtful comments. (ie "This picture blows. You suck") Another brief note would remind those that select the Green box that it is giving significant license for harsh replies, so thick skin will be a likely necessity.

Such would still fall under the "personal attacks" in the TOS of course.

While it seems like this might cause more headaches for SC, I don't believe that is the way it would work out. After an initial work-in period, I think it would prevent a lot of ranty threads and make commenters think more about what they say. I really don't think that there would be that many real complaints that don't already occur with the occasional troll sighting. At least, very little that couldn't be fixed with a little reminder to choose the yellow box next time.

I feel that I would get a lot more comments if people weren't so afraid or unsure as to how to season their comments. If they knew how thick my skin was, they wouldn't hold back nearly as much and I would learn faster!

eschelar

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF-S 17-55mm f/2.8 IS USM

03/23/2006 12:30:08 PM · #19

Oh yeah, and from a guy who's been receiving a Lion's share of 1's in the current challenge, it may sting a bit, but there's a reason that the vote goes from 1 to 10. It allows voters a chance to indicate their feelings and thoughts on a picture with the clarity afforded by 10 gradients.

If you start cracking down on 1 voters, they will feel less freedom to vote as they feel with accuracy.

Why enter your pictures in challenges if it isn't to find out what these people on DPC feel and think about your picture.

After all, this is the perfect testing ground for ensuring that when less discerning (or perhaps more 'particular') individuals/clients view your pictures will be more likely to still be happy with your art/work.

I passed out a pretty heavy portion of 1's, 2's and 3's in this particular challenge compared with other challenges, and while I really did try my best to comment on the majority of them, I also felt that the HUGE number of really poorly thought out pictures were taking my commenting time away from the people who put more work into their pictures and were getting 4-6 in grades and likely reaping precious few comments. (7+ vote recipients usually get a pretty healthy number of comments)

If I had to comment on all the badly undersized, wildly DNMC, simply bad pictures in this challenge, I would have voted on far fewer images and commented meaningfully on far fewer images that were more worthy. Either that or I would have voted a 2 on them and given them a better score than deserved according to my voter's opinion.

The goal here should not be preventing the ones, but rather to encourage thinking before voting.

Message edited by author 2006-03-23 12:31:19.

blindjustice

Canon EOS-7D

Canon EF 17-40mm f/4.0L USM

03/23/2006 01:01:01 PM · #20

We don't need a comment on a one vote; we need a comment to see why people vote 8, 9 and 10 to some photos.

Also- be careful what you ask for; people already hate negative comments; now you want to require a negative comment? You think it will discourage people who hate your shot? And then what, complain that comments are not justified?

Message edited by author 2006-03-23 13:05:00.

Artifacts

Canon EOS-5D Mark II

Canon EF 24-105mm f/4.0L IS

03/23/2006 01:05:17 PM · #21

It is not a good idea to require comments under any conditions. It is well intentioned, but wrong. It smacks of "big brother is watching" and controling the behavior of the membership. The road to tyranny is paved with good intentions.

I rarely give 1s but when I do they are generally far beyond the help of constructive criticism. It is a waste of time to comment on them. It is better to comment on images that can actually benefit. If your image is truely "bad" and gets lots of 1s and you don't know why then ask someone. There are plenty of opinionated people at DPC not shy about telling you why.

The poster probably wants to know why their "good" picture got a few low scores. All "good" images get bad scores for reasons that have nothing to do with photography. Knowing why a fringe voter gave you a 1 will not help improve your photography.

talmy

Nikon D300s

Nikon AF-S DX Zoom-Nikkor 16-85 f/3.5-5.6G ED VR

03/23/2006 01:21:53 PM · #22

Originally posted by rswank:

Originally posted by talmy:
The reason is that virtually none of the photographers marked my comments as "helpful". I figured why should I be punished for taking my time to comment on dreadful photographs?

I'm confused, how exactly are you being "punished" by not having the comment marked as "useful"?
Do you really care what your commentsMade to commentsDeemedHelpful ratio is?
What a useless stat.
You are rewarded somehow when it's marked "useful"?
What a meaningless tracker.
A lot of people mark EVERY comment as helpful, what does that do?

But what is the point in commenting if the comments aren't appreciated? The dearth of appreciated comments on those I scored lowly not only wastes my time but also lowers the deamed useful metric, meaningful or not. (Hey, from a philosophical view, none of these metrics have any true meaning anyway!)