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02/03/2006 03:39:00 PM · #76 |
IMO it's not a question of religion. A childhood disappointment is good enough to keep revenge alive and make people abuse their power. People see the world through their own and unique filter of the scale of values. Even religion is implemented to one's mind through the one's own principles and values.
I have a favourite phrase I often use to avoid conflicts. People will always misunderstand you as long as they WANT to. And as long as people have the power to interpret things as they want to, they will. |
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02/03/2006 03:39:22 PM · #77 |
One of my favorite bumper-stickers:
Dear Lord: Protect Me From Your Followers |
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02/03/2006 03:41:13 PM · #78 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
One of my favorite bumper-stickers:
Dear Lord: Protect Me From Your Followers |
Another one: My Lord, protect me from my friends. I protect myself from my enemies. |
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02/03/2006 03:48:02 PM · #79 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
"Bunk psuedoscience!"
Actually, not.... [snip] |
Invest in a unicycle. Your ability to backpeddle ought come in useful. |
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02/03/2006 03:49:32 PM · #80 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
One of my favorite bumper-stickers:
Dear Lord: Protect Me From Your Followers |
I guess my favorite would have to be
"Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do." -Luke 22:34 (KJV)
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02/03/2006 03:58:09 PM · #81 |
Personally, I just cannot understand how someone in todayâs day in age could believe in things that sound so absurd and without anymore proof than a super old book and when asked for proof of the books factualness or accuracy, the book itself is cited.
Originally posted by theSaj:
Plain and simple:
Christian, Muslims, Atheists and Jews have all committed murder!
likewise
Christian, Muslims, Atheists and Jews have all clothed the poor and served food in the soup kitchens! |
Obviously, thatâs not whatâs in question. It is what groups and activities promote ideas and actions to lead to bad things. Atheists don't promote ideas that lead to separation and bigotry; they donât really promote any ideas other than that of looking at the world openly and using logic and critical thinking to assess things. Religions do. Whether or not thatâs the religions fault or the people within it, it happens, all the time, all thought history.
Organized religion limits critical thinking and progress because of pre-conceived ideas that are never questioned and promote the mindset of just accepting an authority. And all of those in the bible pre-date any modern science and so these are not relevant to todayâs world, especially considering they cannot be proven and there is no evidence and it goes against what we know about how the world and life on it works. And more especially considering much of the instability, violence and suffering today is caused by religious ideas and cultures.
âMen never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.â -Blaise Pascal
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02/03/2006 04:00:53 PM · #82 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
One of my favorite bumper-stickers:
Dear Lord: Protect Me From Your Followers |
Well, in Texas there seems to be a certain sect of smugly self-righteous that have:
"When the Rapture comes, this car will be driverless"
which is nicely deflated by other cars which have:
âWhen the Rapture comes, can I have your car?â
Message edited by author 2006-02-03 16:01:33. |
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02/03/2006 04:06:57 PM · #83 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
Atheists don't promote ideas that lead to separation and bigotry; they donât really promote any ideas other than that of looking at the world openly and using logic and critical thinking to assess things. |
You are wrong. Many (not all) atheists are bigots, and promote separation against anyone who chooses to follow a religion. Looking at the world openly, includes being open about religion. Many (not all) atheists are not.
The few atheists I know, refuse to accept that I dont think the same as them, and constantly belittle and criticize my beliefs.
I am willing to give the benefit of the doubt, that not all atheists are so closed minded, I just have yet to meet them.
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02/03/2006 04:12:07 PM · #84 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
[snip]....Obviously, thatâs not whatâs in question. It is what groups and activities promote ideas and actions to lead to bad things. Atheists don't promote ideas that lead to separation and bigotry; they donât really promote any ideas other than that of looking at the world openly and using logic and critical thinking to assess things. Religions do. Whether or not thatâs the religions fault or the people within it, it happens, all the time, all thought history.
Organized religion limits critical thinking and progress because of pre-conceived ideas that are never questioned and promote the mindset of just accepting an authority. And all of those in the bible pre-date any modern science and so these are not relevant to todayâs world, especially considering they cannot be proven and there is no evidence and it goes against what we know about how the world and life on it works. And more especially considering much of the instability, violence and suffering today is caused by religious ideas and cultures.
âMen never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction.â -Blaise Pascal |
This Pascal quote illustrates what I was meaning earlier about the difference between something simply called "religion" and being a true Christian who understands his own imperfections. Pascal was a Christian and probably saw the hypocrisy of some in the official Church.
Atheists could be said to promote ideas that lead to separation, too, though. If a bunch of people who thought murder was OK were told by a group of atheists that murder was wrong, wouldn't that be cause for separation? Couldn't the murderers accuse the atheists of being anti-murderers? Christians are also accused of this kind of intolerance, for stating (and hopefully, living out ) the beliefs and limits they have on acceptable behavior, which are admittedly usually narrower than the general population (or, at least, the non-Christians).
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02/03/2006 04:21:35 PM · #85 |
This is only a comment about the subject of Religion and the people that have to fight against it in every way; I do not want a response to this. Of late Iâve noticed that there are people that hate the thought of other people believing. Why? Is it because the believers find solace and comfort in their beliefs and the nonbelievers have none and so want everyone to feel as empty as they are? I donât know. I find there is no reason to argue with believers. I admire them. I have noted their inner peacefulness in the knowledge of a creator. What gives me or anyone the right to take that away?
When I was a young man my Dad died. Then like now I did not believe in anything. I raced to the hospital and my sister Nancy was already there. She was crying and could not stop. I sat by the bed and held Dads hand. I looked at the walls and out the hospital window. I held my sister. I did not cry then, only envisioned this great blackness, emptiness that ultimately consumes us all: like falling off a cliff into nothing. It was then that I wished I could believe in an afterlife. Just so Dad could continue in some way but no I had no solace, no comfort, I knew he was gone.
Maybe Iâm wrong.
Just to think of a life and the growing up and the experiences of a lifetime, the smallest glance of love, tender moments, or sunshine upon a face in laughter all gone: nothing but a memory that will fade as the years pass. Ten years, fifty, a century: It will be forgotten 1000 years from now.
What has our science done for us, a lot of people believe the destruction of Earth is possible by Mankind and his Science. The A-Bomb is a result of science. The major Wars of the last century were a result of Science and Philosophy, which was Mankind losing his Faith and making up reasons to do as he wanted, killing as many as he needed to make everyone believe as he believed and it was not to believe in God but to believe in Man. They forgot the lesson to âTurn thy cheekâ.
jm
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02/03/2006 04:28:21 PM · #86 |
If you like to quote Blaise Pascal, try this one:
"There are only three kinds of people: those who serve God, having found him; others who are occupied in seeking him, not having found him; while the remainder live without seeking him and without having found him. The first are reasonable and happy; the last are foolish and unhappy; those between are unhappy and unreasonable." - Blaise Pascal
or this one:
"[Christianity] endeavors equally to establish these two things: that God has set up in the Church visible signs to make himself known to those who should seek him sincerely, and that he has nevertheless so disguised them that he will only be perceived by those who seek him with all their heart." - Blaise Pascal
Message edited by author 2006-02-03 16:35:07. |
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02/03/2006 04:35:21 PM · #87 |
Originally posted by RonB:
If you like to quote Blaise Pascal, try this one:
"There are only three kinds of people: those who serve God, having found him; others who are occupied in seeking him, not having found him; while the remainder live without seeking him and without having found him. The first are reasonable and happy; the last are foolish and unhappy; those between are unhappy and unreasonable." - Blaise Pascal |
Oh, oh, oh, can I play ?
We are generally the better persuaded by the reasons we discover ourselves than by those given to us by others.
Or another fine one for threads like these
I have made this [letter] longer, because I have not had the time to make it shorter.
Somewhat appropriate for this thread too Kind words do not cost much. They never blister the tongue or lips. They make other people good-natured. They also produce their own image on men's souls, and a beautiful image it is.
or we could just end with proof that he was just hedging his bets
Let us weigh the gain and the loss, in wagering that God is. Consider these alternatives: if you win, you win all, if you lose you lose nothing. Do not hesitate, then, to wager that he is.
all quotes : Blaise Pascal
Message edited by author 2006-02-03 16:38:43. |
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02/03/2006 04:35:36 PM · #88 |
I am all for religion, especially the type that people keep to themselves.
Stop putting childish superstitions into politics.
Stop reading the bible like it was anything more than mythology because, although our trust may be misplaced in science, its even more misplaced in fairy tales.
And remember, prayer is not like blowing out candles on a birthday cake. Its not closing your eyes and syaing, "God please let the Seahawks win..."
If there is a God, the image has certainly been filtered very poorly by humankind. And I know for damn sure; if there is a God, he does not choose sides in war or sporting events, he hates country music, and is certainly not a Seahawks fan...
Message edited by author 2006-02-03 16:39:47. |
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02/03/2006 04:40:10 PM · #89 |
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by theSaj:
"Bunk psuedoscience!"
Actually, not.... [snip] |
Invest in a unicycle. Your ability to backpeddle ought come in useful. |
ha ha funny....
typical, unaddressing of the issue... |
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02/03/2006 04:50:06 PM · #90 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
Originally posted by milo655321:
Originally posted by theSaj:
"Bunk psuedoscience!"
Actually, not.... [snip] |
Invest in a unicycle. Your ability to backpeddle ought come in useful. |
ha ha funny....
typical, unaddressing of the issue... |
When you learn to stop dissembling and not over inflate your statements it might be more interesting. What issue have I not addressed?
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02/03/2006 04:53:32 PM · #91 |
"Obviously, thatâs not whatâs in question."
Religion - the root of all evil?
OBVIOUSLY IT IS!!!
And the entire thread is about that...or not. Is all evil, at it's root, tied to religion?
*sheesh*
And you guys have the balls to call religious people irrational.
"Atheists don't promote ideas that lead to separation and bigotry; they donât really promote any ideas other than that of looking at the world openly and using logic and critical thinking to assess things."
REALLY?
Please tell me what idea this thread is not promoting? please tell me how it is not bigotry in it's general application? please please please show me all the logic and critical thinking. Cause frankly...I'm not seeing it.
Instead, I make points, and rebuttle points, with rational arguments. And then get retorts to buy a unicycle. *hee hee* funny. But if I make the same retort or a similar one, it's immediately "See, your irrational and unable to reply with reason."
Come on....
"Organized religion limits critical thinking and progress because of pre-conceived ideas that are never questioned and promote the mindset of just accepting an authority."
So does the scientific community....your point?
"And all of those in the bible pre-date any modern science and so these are not relevant to todayâs world, especially considering they cannot be proven and there is no evidence and it goes against what we know about how the world and life on it works."
Actually, quite often historical aspects of the Bible have been proven to be true. Critics mock, say said statement is wrong, only later to be disproved by new discoveries of historical evidence.
"And more especially considering much of the instability, violence and suffering today is caused by religious ideas and cultures."
Do you really think that? So, all the gang violence and crap that happens in our cities is motivated by religious beliefs eh? Could it be greed, selfishness, fear?
You guys say you're rational but you dismiss categorically evidence that is damning to your argument.
Milo, plain simple you and most fundamental atheists akin to you are alike, in that you use two standards to judge people by. You make arguments that you refuse to accept back to you.
The point being, if we're going to use a few examples of religion to damn it's entirety. Then I am equally justified in using a few examples of atheism and poor science to damn it in it's entirety.
If such is not grounds for damning in entirety, than please...stop damning us in entirety by providing samples and applying them to a whole. |
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02/03/2006 05:16:34 PM · #92 |
Up front I'll say I haven't read this entire thread.
What I can say is this. I am a Christian. I have my reasons for believing what I believe but those reasons are not anything I can "make" anyone else understand or see necessarily.
I attend church, but like any organized group, I don't agree with everything said or done there.
What it boils down to for me is this: If someone starts out by saying "God wants us to..." I am immediately suspect. The God I worship and believe in is not someone I strive to understand fully, really. I honestly don't think we can. What understanding I think I do have, I apply to myself and comes from prayer, meditation, & listening to those I feel are mature Christians. I observe and reach my own conclusions....not necessarily the conclusions of whoever the newest best selling author is. I'm not sold on the idea that Christianity is the only way. It's the way for me, but I'll leave it up to God to sort everyone out. I'm rather a Liberal Fundamentalist :) I guess I feel like I don't easily fit any identified "label."
Religion is a crutch to some....but that's not a bad thing when you're a cripple. I could go on, but I'll stop here. Just felt that I wanted to share my point of view here.
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02/03/2006 06:39:58 PM · #93 |
Originally posted by HighwayFlower:
Originally posted by legalbeagle:
However, faith appears to be gaining ground on science. This is worrying because, while religions preach morality, peace and hope, in fact religion often appears to result in intolerance, violence and destruction. |
It is not religion itself that results in intolerance, violence and destruction, it is PEOPLE. It is an unfortunate part of human nature. You can find examples of all three anywhere you look , even in science and especially in politics. Sure there is corruption in religion, as there is corruption in almost everything, but THAT is what breeds these things, not religion. |
Yes, it takes people, but when those people have a reason to indoctrinate others in favour of what they see as right then the pressure builds through the obsession and it's the obsessive behaviour that becomes unbalanced and sometimes dangerous.
I have just witnessed on TV followers of Islam marching through the world's streets holding banners stating "Behead those who insult Islam' and the like, simply as a result of a drawing. This one:
Rather than rise above any offence it caused many of these followers have instead risen up in violent protest. Why? Their sacred beliefs should protect them from such banality as a cartoon, surely?
I don't remember ever seeing an agnostic/atheist carrying a banner reading "Kill all those who believe in a God".
It's shameful and simply strengthens my belief - no, knowledge - that religion allows supposedly good people to incite treason, murder and persecution of those who don't share their beliefs.
The cartoon that appeared in a Danish newspaper is an example of free speech in my view. If those who are religious consider themselves safe in the knowledge that they will be going to a utopia after death while the rest of we non-believers are destined for oblivion (in whatever form) then surely isn't that justice enough for them? Why must they thrust upon us all the threat of violence?
My nation's government places massive emphasis on respect for religions, but I fail to see why I should automatically respect any of them. What reasons do I have? They need to earn my respect and none to date has offered a credible answer to the serious questions that threaten their credibility. Most religions/faiths have at some point in their ancient history preached some form of anihilation to their opposers.
Quite honestly I resent my life being governed by those with outmoded beliefs and decisions based on ignorant pretences. The scribes who wrote the texts on which many religions are based were devised in times so alien to those in which we now reside that they bear no real relevance at all, other than to offer a few useful morals. |
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02/03/2006 06:42:31 PM · #94 |
Originally posted by sabphoto:
And to the other comment...no the authors of the Bible probably weren't scientist and such but that didn't matter cause the words of the Bible came from God himself, they wrote what He gave them to write. |
But how do you know this? Humans, being what they are and fallible, may have twisted the words to their own use without even being aware of the fact. If someone were to come up to you tomorrow and state that they had a visitation from God in the appearance of a burning bush, would you accept their words at face value, or call the men with butterfly nets?
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02/03/2006 06:45:15 PM · #95 |
Originally posted by MadMordegon:
One example on how religion really eff's things up with their ideas; abstinence only sex education.
Letâs use logic for a second and analyze this. We are talking about telling adolescence, many whose role models today are sluts or rappers on MTV and the commercial marketing used on them is largely sexual, whose bodies and minds are going through the largest physical and psychological change in their lives, to completely resist the exact urges those changes are powerfully creating? |
Ah, but you forget - the folks preaching abstinence are the same ones that would put their children in a garden, point out a specific fruit and make a big deal of it, then tell them they can't have that fruit and punish them when curiosity caused them to pick it anyway. ;P
Message edited by author 2006-02-03 18:46:12.
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02/03/2006 06:57:27 PM · #96 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
"Organized religion limits critical thinking and progress because of pre-conceived ideas that are never questioned and promote the mindset of just accepting an authority."
So does the scientific community....your point? |
This is why you get the unicycle comments. What do you mean the scientific community limits critical thinking? How do you think science works? Do you not see the difference between the established backgrounds (which always updates as new information is discovered) of all the fields of science, and the bible a single book whose works cannot be proven so when asked the book itself is cited as a source?
Originally posted by theSaj:
"And all of those in the bible pre-date any modern science and so these are not relevant to todayâs world, especially considering they cannot be proven and there is no evidence and it goes against what we know about how the world and life on it works."
Actually, quite often historical aspects of the Bible have been proven to be true. Critics mock, say said statement is wrong, only later to be disproved by new discoveries of historical evidence. |
It's not "quote often", if it was, this wouldn't be such an issue.
Originally posted by theSaj:
"And more especially considering much of the instability, violence and suffering today is caused by religious ideas and cultures."
Do you really think that? So, all the gang violence and crap that happens in our cities is motivated by religious beliefs eh? Could it be greed, selfishness, fear? |
I was referring to major suffering around the world caused by religion, like most of the Middle East. Poor gang members don't suicide bomb a plane into a building. Though, as I understand Jesusâ message it is to help those in need, like the poor. Poverty is the main reason kids join gangs.
Originally posted by theSaj:
Milo, plain simple you and most fundamental atheists akin to you are alike, in that you use two standards to judge people by. You make arguments that you refuse to accept back to you. |
Fundamental atheist? Now youâre actually mixing the names of religion with atheist?
Originally posted by theSaj:
The point being, if we're going to use a few examples of religion to damn it's entirety. Then I am equally justified in using a few examples of atheism and poor science to damn it in it's entirety.
If such is not grounds for damning in entirety, than please...stop damning us in entirety by providing samples and applying them to a whole. |
There are plenty of examples, all throughout history showing what kind of horrors religion creates. Itâs not like itâs just âa few examplesâ. I think the lack of rights and daily abuse of wives by their husbands in Saudi Arabia alone should say a lot.
And youâre again comparing science with religion as if they are comparable. One works through a process that can be documented, tested and proven overtime, updated and changed as new evidence requires, collaborated with any race. The other comes from 1 book which is filled with stories and events of things we know to be impossible because of the science of physics and chemistry, etc.
Oh and the clintcher is, every religion has their own book! But with every culture and race of human, science is the same.
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02/03/2006 07:03:44 PM · #97 |
"Yes, it takes people, but when those people have a reason to indoctrinate others in favour of what they see as right then the pressure builds through the obsession and it's the obsessive behaviour that becomes unbalanced and sometimes dangerous. "
Very much agreed....
Likewise, when I've spoken out about the extremism within Islam, I constantly find Atheist's comparing such to the conservative christian political movement as equivalent. In truth, I wonder if Atheist's because of their blind dogma are unable to see the difference. And at the same time, whenever I've made mention of the high level of extremism within the Islamic community, I've been denigrated for such comments. But the fact of the matter - there is.
Palestine proved my statements month earlier that they had a significantly higher level of extremists than most regions. They did so when a vast majority voted in an extreme terrorist group as it's leaders. Likewise, much of the Islamic world is showing such again by their response to the comics. (Goodness gracious, I can't even count how many times I've seen Jesus denigrated in some form. Heck, one trip to Spencer's in the Mall would cause a million deaths if Christians responded likewise. That's not to say that Christianity has not had it's likewise past. But there was a period of renaissance and reformation. And likewise, I do believe that a portion of the Islamic world is desperately in need of it's "rennaissance". Does that statement mean I hate muslims or I believe all of Islam is made up of terrorists. Far from it. In fact, I believe the one's who will be responsible for Islam's rennaissance should it occur will in fact be Muslims.
Extremism is wrong...regardless of it's motivator.
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"I don't remember ever seeing an agnostic/atheist carrying a banner reading "Kill all those who believe in a God". "
It's very easy to think "our group" as innoncent. But it's seldom the case. Vileness is a plague upon man that is neither sexist, nor racist, nor agist.
It's easy to think that none have been killed or harmed by atheists decrying "Do away with all who believe in God" ...but that's because you did not live in Communist Russia, which was staunchly atheist. And many people were imprisoned, sent to Siberia (essentially a death sentence for most), etc.
And that is exactly my point in this debate. It doesn't require religion, simply requires...as you said in your first paragraph....obsessive behavior and a reason to indoctrinate.
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02/03/2006 07:15:37 PM · #98 |
Originally posted by theSaj:
And that is exactly my point in this debate. It doesn't require religion, simply requires...as you said in your first paragraph....obsessive behavior and a reason to indoctrinate. |
Again with the straw man! NOBODY is saying religion is REQUIRED to do eff'd up stuff. |
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02/03/2006 07:25:27 PM · #99 |
Hey MadMordegon...
Go read the frakking title of the thread. If you can say no one is saying that when I can plainly read it in the title of the thread. Who's committing the err? It sure as randomly organized particles returning to disorganization for later use (hell) not me. |
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02/03/2006 07:25:39 PM · #100 |
"So does the scientific community....your point? This is why you get the unicycle comments. What do you mean the scientific community limits critical thinking? How do you think science works?"
I am fully aware of how science works. However, it is not uncommon for the scientific community to not follow science. I can point to numerous agendized non-scientific actions on the part of the scientific community.
A great example is the poster that portrayed an embryo going thru all the different animal stages. Do you know how many people I have met who still today believe that is true. It was bad science.
Or for example, there are some physicists who theorize that C (Speed of Light in a vaccuum) may in fact not be a constant. They've gotten a lot of ridicule from the scientific community. However, in recent years others have begun to question such.
My point is, it's no different. It's all DOGMA. Scientists have historically been opposed to change. Those who come up with revolutionary break-thru's of discovery are at first often ridiculed. They are just as closed minded.
"I was referring to major suffering around the world caused by religion, like most of the Middle East. Poor gang members don't suicide bomb a plane into a building. Though, as I understand Jesusâ message it is to help those in need, like the poor. Poverty is the main reason kids join gangs."
The case in point is that this is a simple logical discussion of whether: all evil is due to religion or not.
What I find so hypocritical about atheists (besides their staunch denial to purport anything yet constant endeavor to force their views upon others). Is that you keep using examples, like the middle-east, as your argument. And then dismissing examples like atheist communist Russia which killed 20-50 million individuals. Or China, they're rather opposed to religion and quite determined atheists with a few minor grants mostly done for economics. They're also quite reknown for brutality, imprisonment, etc.
So either, the conclusion is "religion" can be a motivator but is not always the motivator. In which case the premise of this post is indeed wrong. Or, "atheism" is also a religion.
I'll accept either. Logic will allow either. It will not allow neither in context of observed data and the posted statement of this thread.
"There are plenty of examples, all throughout history showing what kind of horrors religion creates. Itâs not like itâs just âa few examplesâ. I think the lack of rights and daily abuse of wives by their husbands in Saudi Arabia alone should say a lot. "
I've given quite a few examples in the last 200 yrs:
- NAZI uber-human/sub-human
- African de-humanization
- Communist Russia
- Communist China
So CONGRATULATIONS Mr. Atheist. You're on about as good, if not even a worse start than Mr. Religion. Welcome to the evil that can be Mankind.
"And youâre again comparing science with religion as if they are comparable. One works through a process that can be documented, tested and proven overtime, updated and changed as new evidence requires, collaborated with any race."
You are referring to the scientific method. However, I am referring to science and/or the scientific community. Which is a group of fallible humans who endeavor to use the scientific method to a greater or lesser extent of success.
Sure, the method may be good but the implementation has often sucked. And in that, I see no reason for atheists to be able to hide behind the name of science and say "the method is good" as they throw stones at religious people and shout "bad, bad". How is that any different than simply dismissing all the wrongs of the church and exclaiming "true christianity says thought shalt not murder" and calls us to forgive and love our enemies. I can then easily dismiss all of your accusations to the fact that they were not in fact "religious" people.
Now, I am going to make a rare exception to my rule and provide a religious argument from the book of James (actually Jacob)
"Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, [and] to keep himself unspotted from the world."
So I don't know what you want to call them people you keep giving as examples. But if my point to science and atheism is dismissed on the grounds that those were true scienctists or science is simply observation. Then my dear sir, I dismiss all your accusations as none of those were actually examples of religion. (Not sure what they were, but we'll put them in the same category as the bad science people.)
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