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07/21/2003 12:27:10 AM · #1 |
Anybody going to take the Fill the Frame challenge as an opportunity to shoot pictures with the "extra challenge" of "no cropping"? (i.e., visualize and then compose the shot in-camera).
I strive to shoot as much as I can "uncropped" (but understand it is a necessary evil when adjusting for various printed aspect ratios), and was just curious if anybody else felt that way... |
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07/21/2003 12:31:24 AM · #2 |
I'm with you here... I'm going to try and fill the frame in camera... otherwise what is the point of this challenge?
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07/21/2003 12:35:35 AM · #3 |
Looks like this challenge might be full of close-up shots...
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07/21/2003 12:39:12 AM · #4 |
| Sounds like everybody had better be sure to keep the original file to me. |
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07/21/2003 12:42:37 AM · #5 |
yes i think will try to do it that way too, though I guess you could crop out the parts 'not of your subject'. Looking forward to this challenge
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07/21/2003 12:59:40 AM · #6 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
Anybody going to take the Fill the Frame challenge as an opportunity to shoot pictures with the "extra challenge" of "no cropping"? (i.e., visualize and then compose the shot in-camera).
I strive to shoot as much as I can "uncropped" (but understand it is a necessary evil when adjusting for various printed aspect ratios), and was just curious if anybody else felt that way... |
I think you should apply that thought to ANY photo you take. Compose your shots the camera rather than with software. It's a best practice for becoming a better photographer :)
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07/21/2003 01:01:15 AM · #7 |
| I guess I need to find a 4/3 ratio rectangular or trapazoidal object to really fill the frame or I'd just be getting 'part' of the subject that's what it says to me I'd rather see lots of close fitting crops than all close ups. |
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07/21/2003 01:23:08 AM · #8 |
| I always try to get that when I shoot... But if cropping is necessary, I wouldn't use the word "evil". If I was printing in a darkroom, I would easily turn the easel or raise the projector to crop out what I did not want. |
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07/21/2003 01:26:02 AM · #9 |
| just a follow up... I would probably be scoring down any entries which showed excessive cropping, e.g. those which appear as a square, or those with aspect ratios far higher than 1.5:1 |
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07/21/2003 06:10:33 AM · #10 |
Originally posted by hortopth:
I would probably be scoring down any entries which showed excessive cropping, e.g. those which appear as a square, or those with aspect ratios far higher than 1.5:1 |
I think that should depend on the shot, rather than ruling them all out before you even see them? |
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07/21/2003 08:43:01 AM · #11 |
Originally posted by hortopth:
just a follow up... I would probably be scoring down any entries which showed excessive cropping, e.g. those which appear as a square, or those with aspect ratios far higher than 1.5:1 |
Why?
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07/21/2003 08:52:39 AM · #12 |
Originally posted by jmsetzler:
Originally posted by hortopth:
just a follow up... I would probably be scoring down any entries which showed excessive cropping, e.g. those which appear as a square, or those with aspect ratios far higher than 1.5:1 |
Why? |
I agree
WHY?
Cropping is legal, fair, and a way to make a good picture better.
If you were to mark down for cropping, then why not mark down for any other form of editing, or other dark room technique?
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07/21/2003 08:56:30 AM · #13 |
| it just goes back to the original suggestion, of how getting the composition right with the photo was important. If it was square or extremley long, then it really did not fit into the frame space, it was just forced. Its just about how it feels for me (as with the judging for most people) You might argue that it still fits, and it doesn't matter how you get a full frame. Thats fine, we all score differently. I think I probably do this with any scoring. If it is a long photo, of 2 or 3 to 1, then it just feels like they got the photo wrong, and are using the excessive cropping like a band-aid. I didn't mean to make it sound like it was an absolute criteria--- you could look at some of them and not notice it, all you see is a great image. |
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07/21/2003 09:07:09 AM · #14 |
Without, hopefully, re-opening old wounds, there does seem to be a feeling that the only legitimate way to use a digital camera is in imitation of a film camera. This is obviously mistaken - it's a whole new genre of photography, which is why so man digital photographers work in full colour who don't with film.
Obviously this discussion pertains to this site rather than to photography in general, and this site's aim is to improve our photography rather than our editing: but it remains that 'legitimate darkroom techniques' have nothing to do with any such processing argument. I've never even been in a darkroom, having begun my experimentation with photography when I bought my first digital camera a couple of years ago.
I think the difficult thing about this challenge (which is an excellent one) has nothing to do with cropping, but to do with photographing something in a way which represents the subject and fills the frame: cropping doesn't enter into it - just spend a little time thinking about really filling the frame, leaving as little empty space as possible ... not at all easy.
Ed
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07/21/2003 09:16:44 AM · #15 |
Here we go again. Sometimes a great picture is made even greater with some creative cropping. The end result might look better if it were round verses any form of a rectangle and that is no fault of the photographer.
I think with this challenge the objective is simply to try to frame the picture with the camera, and that it will be obvious that it wasn't done that way if the aspect ratio is something other than the normal ratio of the digital format. Sure wish I had a square format camera for this challenge (example 2-1/4 X 2-1/4) so I could get a lot of ones because my end result wasn't 640X480.
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07/21/2003 09:35:23 AM · #16 |
I'm with Ed - it makes me laugh every time someone starts harping on about ...
'The Darkroom'
Never been near one, never intend to.
'He who keeps one foot in the past is unable to move forwards'.
As for cropping - yeah it's great to frame everything in camera, just not always possible, especially if you're shooting with the intention of producing a square or panoramic shot!
Seems to me that it's being used as yet another excuse to mark perfectly good photos down.
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07/21/2003 09:47:42 AM · #17 |
Originally posted by bod:
'He who keeps one foot in the past is unable to move forwards'.
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I prefer 'He who keeps one foot in the past is liable to trip and fall flat on face!'.
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07/21/2003 09:49:48 AM · #18 |
The only time the darkroom was mentioned in this thread, was to say that that cropping is the same with both film and digital. Its about the handiest tool there is.
You will find though, that we are well trained to some rectangular shape that we've all seen a million times. If you put something up for judging by popular vote, which is 3 times longer than it is tall, then you might find it difficult to pick up a top score. 1.25x1 (or something close) is very much engrained into our heads.
I'll just go browse the other challenges to see if this holds at all. |
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07/21/2003 09:56:21 AM · #19 |
Originally posted by hortopth:
I'll just go browse the other challenges to see if this holds at all. |
May I suggest you start with the top 10 of the speed challenge : )
Originally posted by robsmith:
I prefer 'He who keeps one foot in the past is liable to trip and fall flat on face!'. |
rofl
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07/21/2003 10:00:15 AM · #20 |
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07/21/2003 10:00:15 AM · #21 |
| 3 out of 10. Ok. Perhaps I should have cropped! |
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07/21/2003 10:44:30 AM · #22 |
As a general rule, I do try to always frame my shot "in camera" to minimize any cropping.
The only time I have to crop is when I'm changing the aspect ratio of a print. My camera produces 3:2 images (the same as 35mm film), which means 4x6, 8x12, 16x24 "natively". If I want 8x10's, or 16x20's, I must crop some of my original. (Most non-DSLR cameras produce 4:3 images, the same aspect ratio as standard computer monitors.)
Now, back to this challenge: if you only "fill the frame" through cropping, where is the challenge? I see hortopth's point on this one, and personally I agree that we should see 4:3 and 3:2 aspect ratio submissions to convey that you "filled the frame" when composing the shot, and not by cropping a larger image square or "panoramic". However, that is just my opinion, and others folks are obviously allowed to "fill the frame" through cropping, or to vote an obviously cropped photo at "10".
If you look at the work of Henri Cartier-Bresson (for example), you'd see that almost all of his photographs include a black border -- because he included a very small part of the negative when exposing the print, to indicate that no cropping was done in the darkroom. "For despite the spontaneous nature of his subjects, Henri Cartier-Bresson never abandoned his formal training as an artist. Each image is a complete composition within a single frame of film, and it cannot be cropped or altered without destroying the whole."
Henri was also criticized at the time for being nothing more than a "snap-shooter" because of his "decisive moment" approach. Yet his pictures were the first ever photographic exhibit ever to grace the halls of the Louvre.
Message edited by author 2003-07-21 11:05:59. |
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07/21/2003 11:20:08 AM · #23 |
As I'm currently working with a 2MP camera I'm going to have to frame this shot in-camera to get anywhere near decent quality.
ed
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07/21/2003 12:00:24 PM · #24 |
Originally posted by EddyG:
As a general rule, I do try to always frame my shot "in camera" to minimize any cropping. |
100% with you on this. Everybody should try their best to do this whatever the challenge topic.
However, I learned to frame my shots better by cropping - it allowed me to see later what I should have done in the first place. Remember that most of us are still very much beginners.
Originally posted by EddyG:
The only time I have to crop is when I'm changing the aspect ratio of a print. |
I have to crop everything to get a decent selection of print sizes :-/
I also shoot a lot of cars travelling at 140mph+ a few metres in front of my face - you try framing every shot perfectly!!!
Originally posted by EddyG:
Now, back to this challenge: if you only "fill the frame" through cropping, where is the challenge? |
The challenge is coming up with and shooting a great photo, as it always is.
Not everybody has a great camera. If somebody wants to shoot something small but their camera has poor macro capabilities do they a) get closer anyway and submit an out of focus shot, or b) shoot in focus then crop to get the shot they intended to get?
Same goes for panoramic/square frames - if that is what you had in mind when you took the shot then why should you be restricted by your camera?
Same goes for lack of zoom.
Originally posted by EddyG:
I see hortopth's point on this one, and personally I agree that we should see 4:3 and 3:2 aspect ratio submissions to convey that you "filled the frame" when composing the shot, and not by cropping a larger image square or "panoramic". However, that is just my opinion, and others folks are obviously allowed to "fill the frame" through cropping, or to vote an obviously cropped photo at "10". |
And we will : )
All I'm concerned with is the quality of the final image. Personally I don't like all these extra 'rules' that crop up in the forums every week.
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07/21/2003 01:42:06 PM · #25 |
you're already on our most wanted list for bad puns, bod. ;)
I agree about the "extra" rules..we are still all mostly beginners and not all equipment is created equal, so judge the photograph on what you see, and not on what you don't see!
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