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01/30/2006 05:41:31 PM · #101 |
Reminds me of my own ethical dilemma back almost 2 years ago. I'd still do the same thing I did back then.
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01/30/2006 06:23:05 PM · #102 |
| I'm astounded at the self-righteousness shown by some of you. I'm not sure it's moral to believe that we own anything, whether we purchase it or not. Morality is a complex balance of what is owed to one's state, one's family, one's communities and one's own spirit. Your black is my white. The days of black and white morality ended with slavery. A discussion like this one should be held in a spirit of curiosity and understanding (and fun, even), not one of condemnation. It is immoral to hand over your moral decisions to Big Daddy Authority Figure, be it government or Wal-mart. Take back your own morality. |
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01/30/2006 08:04:54 PM · #103 |
Originally posted by barndog:
Are you the type of person to forgive the mistake and do what is morally right.......... |
But what is morally right?
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01/30/2006 08:31:51 PM · #104 |
Originally posted by posthumous:
I'm astounded at the self-righteousness shown by some of you....Take back your own morality. |
I'm astounded at a lot of things, too, my friend, and one of them is the idea of "what's wrong for me may be okay for you." Pretty astounding, yes. |
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01/30/2006 08:45:13 PM · #105 |
it is the way of the world
some people do, some people don't, and some people sometimes do/don't
i am a sometimes & have and have not
Been on the recieving end as well, on both sides
don't sweat the small stuff
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01/30/2006 08:47:39 PM · #106 |
As a reminder- please make sure to keep the conversation on topic and civil.
:)
Thank you! |
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01/30/2006 08:58:28 PM · #107 |
Originally posted by blemt:
As a reminder- please make sure to keep the conversation on topic and civil.
:)
Thank you! |
Are you the civil police tonight? :D
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01/30/2006 09:24:50 PM · #108 |
Originally posted by UNCLEBRO:
Originally posted by barndog:
Are you the type of person to forgive the mistake and do what is morally right.......... |
But what is morally right? |
I have always believed there is a universal right / wrong that surpasses all races and religions without geographic boundry. It is the capacity in people to do good for others and not harm. How we deal with commerce, possesions, worldly things is trivial to the core of being good to one another. It is not about Wal-Mart or being on the short end of a mistake about things. It is about seeing that none of us are without fault and accepting each other as such. That is how I perceive morality.
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01/30/2006 09:29:30 PM · #109 |
Originally posted by nards656:
Originally posted by posthumous:
I'm astounded at the self-righteousness shown by some of you....Take back your own morality. |
I'm astounded at a lot of things, too, my friend, and one of them is the idea of "what's wrong for me may be okay for you." Pretty astounding, yes. |
Ha! I guess as a relativist I shouldn't be astounded by much of anything! :) Judging by your statement, I guess you don't travel much. And as a relativist, I accept the viewpoint that has resulted, just like I respect those spear throwers they made a movie about, "The End of the Spear." The spear was working for them. Are they better off with cans of Coca-Cola and "Let's Do It In the Road" T-Shirts? I'm not so sure.
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01/30/2006 09:40:42 PM · #110 |
Originally posted by barndog:
I have always believed there is a universal right / wrong that surpasses all races and religions without geographic boundry. It is the capacity in people to do good for others and not harm. How we deal with commerce, possesions, worldly things is trivial to the core of being good to one another. It is not about Wal-Mart or being on the short end of a mistake about things. It is about seeing that none of us are without fault and accepting each other as such. That is how I perceive morality. |
Being good to one another... acceptance... I like your attempt at defining morality. I believe in a universal, too, but when going for the universal one must be extremely careful... or extremely spiritual. What happens next is these universal values get filtered down through our many cultures and beliefs and even individual circumstances. This is not mere dilution, it is a realization, because universals are not enough. And this is where tolerance is useful, because each person is coming to grips with morality in his/her own way.
Unfortunately, one of the easiest ways to "come to grips" is to take a bunch of arbitrary rules and call THEM universal. Next thing you know, it becomes about smallpox blankets and spanish inquisitions. |
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01/30/2006 09:48:44 PM · #111 |
I'm not answering this question because I have before and I got blasted for my honesty -- well, honesty in answering the question, that is ;-)
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01/30/2006 09:49:13 PM · #112 |
I'd pay up....
I always have. I haven't had anything that big/expensive....but invariabley at the grocery store I have walked out with a half rack of pop under the cart and didn't pay for it and realized I hadn't when I went to put the groceries in the car. I'd take it back in and pay for it.... never crossed my mind to not pay for it. |
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01/30/2006 09:55:28 PM · #113 |
If you really wanted to keep it, we wouldn't be discussing it here.
It's not worth it, Pay up |
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01/30/2006 11:01:27 PM · #114 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I'm apalled that some would justify keeping merchandise you didn't pay for by the actions of the victim. In some ways, people never fail to disappoint. Regardless of how small the effect on the store, or the actions of the company that owns the store; if you didn't pay for it, it's not yours and keeping it is wrong.
You can try to justify it all you want by listing the sins of the corporation, but it's still wrong. |
in your point of view. My view differs. Right and Wrong isn't a black and white subject. |
I can't see how stealing is in the gray area, but if that's how you need to justify it and make yourself feel better about it, go ahead... |
Stealing *can* be a gray area, and it isn't about justification. It could simply be karma's way of saying "thank you" for all the good I *do* do in every aspect of my life. Having said that, it's never actually happened to me.. so it's a theoretical decision. I can say "no damn way" right now and still return it if it ever happened, if I was in that kind of mood. One thing I've never done in my life though is let other people dictate *my* morality. |
No one is trying to dictate anything, but if you didn't pay for something and it wasn't specifically given to you, it's not yours and keeping it is wrong, not sorta wrong, just wrong. To claim otherwise is like saying the sky is fire engine red with purple and blue dots. You can say it all you want, but it isn't going to make the sky those colors.
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01/30/2006 11:14:54 PM · #115 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I'm apalled that some would justify keeping merchandise you didn't pay for by the actions of the victim. In some ways, people never fail to disappoint. Regardless of how small the effect on the store, or the actions of the company that owns the store; if you didn't pay for it, it's not yours and keeping it is wrong.
You can try to justify it all you want by listing the sins of the corporation, but it's still wrong. |
in your point of view. My view differs. Right and Wrong isn't a black and white subject. |
I can't see how stealing is in the gray area, but if that's how you need to justify it and make yourself feel better about it, go ahead... |
Stealing *can* be a gray area, and it isn't about justification. It could simply be karma's way of saying "thank you" for all the good I *do* do in every aspect of my life. Having said that, it's never actually happened to me.. so it's a theoretical decision. I can say "no damn way" right now and still return it if it ever happened, if I was in that kind of mood. One thing I've never done in my life though is let other people dictate *my* morality. |
No one is trying to dictate anything, but if you didn't pay for something and it wasn't specifically given to you, it's not yours and keeping it is wrong, not sorta wrong, just wrong. To claim otherwise is like saying the sky is fire engine red with purple and blue dots. You can say it all you want, but it isn't going to make the sky those colors. |
But you are.. you're saying "A" is wrong. I'm saying, I don't believe it necessarily is. That's all. You're entitled to your belief, but you're still dictating when you present it as an undebatable fact. Possession is an *amazingly* complex idea, and it's only in our current monetarily driven society that hypothetical cases like this become such a concern.
*edit* Of course, in times past, you'd just have your hand(s) chopped off :)
Message edited by author 2006-01-30 23:19:02. |
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01/31/2006 11:03:11 AM · #116 |
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Originally posted by Artyste:
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
I'm apalled that some would justify keeping merchandise you didn't pay for by the actions of the victim. In some ways, people never fail to disappoint. Regardless of how small the effect on the store, or the actions of the company that owns the store; if you didn't pay for it, it's not yours and keeping it is wrong.
You can try to justify it all you want by listing the sins of the corporation, but it's still wrong. |
in your point of view. My view differs. Right and Wrong isn't a black and white subject. |
I can't see how stealing is in the gray area, but if that's how you need to justify it and make yourself feel better about it, go ahead... |
Stealing *can* be a gray area, and it isn't about justification. It could simply be karma's way of saying "thank you" for all the good I *do* do in every aspect of my life. Having said that, it's never actually happened to me.. so it's a theoretical decision. I can say "no damn way" right now and still return it if it ever happened, if I was in that kind of mood. One thing I've never done in my life though is let other people dictate *my* morality. |
No one is trying to dictate anything, but if you didn't pay for something and it wasn't specifically given to you, it's not yours and keeping it is wrong, not sorta wrong, just wrong. To claim otherwise is like saying the sky is fire engine red with purple and blue dots. You can say it all you want, but it isn't going to make the sky those colors. |
But you are.. you're saying "A" is wrong. I'm saying, I don't believe it necessarily is. That's all. You're entitled to your belief, but you're still dictating when you present it as an undebatable fact. Possession is an *amazingly* complex idea, and it's only in our current monetarily driven society that hypothetical cases like this become such a concern.
*edit* Of course, in times past, you'd just have your hand(s) chopped off :) |
To extend your idea that "wrongness" of something is determined by the individual, if I believed that killing people who pissed me off was perfectly fine, it would be not wrong for me to load up a couple of 9mm pistols and an assault rifle and just go on a killing spree just because I'm pissed at the world.
Genocide, torture, slavery, any number of heinous acts could be justified using your reasoning.
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01/31/2006 01:02:53 PM · #117 |
Originally posted by Spazmo99:
Genocide, torture, slavery, any number of heinous acts could be justified using your reasoning. |
You're right, but such acts are almost always committed by black-and-white thinkers enforcing universal right vs. wrong. Does "Ethnic Cleansing" sound like a term that a moral relativist would use? How about "holy war"?
It is actually the inability or unwillingness to see something from another point of view that causes the holocausts of this world. |
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