| Author | Thread |
|
|
11/28/2005 01:00:34 PM · #51 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
I am as bad as the next person for remembering what I did to a photo... |
Can you remember what you were trying to achieve when you took a shot or did something to it in PS, I think that's what's important.
|
|
|
|
11/28/2005 01:24:50 PM · #52 |
I wonder if there would be a way to limit CC requests to only those within a certain maximum of comments? For instance, perhaps once you've reached the 15 or 20 number of comments received, that photo would automatically drop from the list to be critiqued.
I think something like that, or something (as suggested earlier in the thread) that requires more than a simple tic of the box to request a critique, would decrease the overwhelming waiting list.
EDITED to add that I also agree with the original posters idea of more information from the photographer.
I am CC member, but haven't done many for awhile.
Message edited by author 2005-11-28 13:25:45. |
|
|
|
11/28/2005 01:36:13 PM · #53 |
Originally posted by Jammur:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
I am as bad as the next person for remembering what I did to a photo... |
Can you remember what you were trying to achieve when you took a shot or did something to it in PS, I think that's what's important. |
... amongst other things.
|
|
|
|
11/28/2005 01:42:38 PM · #54 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
...The photographers intentions or the story behind the photo can lead the critique... |
I agree. Let the presentation (image + title) speak for itself.
Technical data - yes; any additional commentary, IMO, may either be detrimental or useful to a good critique. Only the photographer can know, at the time of submission, if his words would do harm or good.
If the photo is good, especially if it is excellent in an artistic sense, any amount of secondary verbiage could present quite a distraction, to put it mildly. If (by everyone's standard) it is a poor photo , even its author will have a sense of this, and any additional commentary cannot change this.
To, however, force a photographer to comment where no commentary is wanted, needed, practical or appropriate, is hardly something I could be at peace with.
I'm also not so sure either about who'd benefit more from a capable critique, someone who consistently scores in the 4s here or another who's statistic hovers around 6. Score, even artistic ability and technical skill should not, IMHO, determine any order of preference.
Message edited by author 2005-11-28 13:45:08. |
|
|
|
11/28/2005 01:46:03 PM · #55 |
I've been reading a little of this thread here and there:
As for the original thought, I think it's easier to do a good critique if you know what the photographer was thinking and going for when they shot it. As a customer, you'll get more of a review if you give the info, but I don't think it needs to be mandatory.
Some additional thoughts on the CC club:
If the intent of the CC club is to help people that need help, I'd drop all photos in the top 20% of the challenge form the list of photos needing critique.
A crtique club member only challenge once and awhile would be a nice thank you.
It would probably be a pain to program and not worth the effort, but I'd like to see the customers rate the review. I'd like to know how I'm doing and if I should keep doing it.
|
|
|
|
11/28/2005 01:56:18 PM · #56 |
Originally posted by zeuszen:
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
...The photographers intentions or the story behind the photo can lead the critique... |
I agree. Let the presentation (image + title) speak for itself.
Technical data - yes; any additional commentary, IMO, may either be detrimental or useful to a good critique. Only the photographer can know, at the time of submission, if his words would do harm or good.
If the photo is good, especially if it is excellent in an artistic sense, any amount of secondary verbiage could present quite a distraction, to put it mildly. If (by everyone's standard) it is a poor photo , even its author will have a sense of this, and any additional commentary cannot change this.
To, however, force a photographer to comment where no commentary is wanted, needed, practical or appropriate, is hardly something I could be at peace with.
I'm also not so sure either about who'd benefit more from a capable critique, someone who consistently scores in the 4s here or another who's statistic hovers around 6. Score, even artistic ability and technical skill should not, IMHO, determine any order of preference. |
My point is that I want it to lead the critique. If what the photographer says they were trying to do is not reflected in the image then the critique can address that.
|
|
|
|
11/28/2005 02:07:27 PM · #57 |
Originally posted by louddog:
If the intent of the CC club is to help people that need help, I'd drop all photos in the top 20% of the challenge form the list of photos needing critique. |
I'm not sure I'd agree with this. I think a LOT of lower-ranking entries are just fluff, tossed in to be "in" the challenge, and don't represent "serious" effort by the photographer. This is certainly true of many of my entries. On the other hand, there are a LOT of people who regularly finish in the top 20% but have never broken through to a ribbon.
For these sorts of shots, it's often easy to identify one or two aspects of the shot which, if altered or corrected, could have boosted it to the next level. And these people, by and large, are usually appreciative of serious critiques and make an effort to learn from them.
R. |
|
|
|
11/28/2005 02:19:11 PM · #58 |
From a non cc person here, I fully support this idea. I don't think it takes very much effort for a photog to put some sort of comments in their pic, and it makes perfect sense to me how some info could help out a critiquer greatly.
I remember when I was new, I would submit a photo and here was this box asking if I would like an indepth critique, well, heck yeah!, who wouldn't? Click! Then after being around a little while, I learned what that was really all about, and the process and all. I soon started to realize that I don't need a critique on every photo I submit. Some are just fun shots where I had a good challenge idea (what I thought anyway :-) or whatever. Anyways, I only ever received a couple critiques. Seeing what all was involved and the cc workload, I for the most part stopped clicking the 'box' long ago. A couple times recently, I've had an image that I would have really liked a critique on and clicked it, but did'nt receive one :-( I included info on my photogs comments for sure. I usually try to anyways, sometimes even if it's just like "Just a fun shot of my daughter" or whatever.
Anyways, (sorry) the point of this rambling, I like some of the thoughts being presented in this thread. It seems like the number of requests (for critiques) is just too great, and too easy to do. It is just so automatic, especially for newer people that maybe don't realize exactly what it is they are requesting :-) It's just like, submit a photo, click the boxes saying I've read the rules, etc. , would I like a critique?, yes, etc. So then, people who are not 'abusive' of the system (abusive, I'm sure is too strong of a word here, but for lack of a better one at the moment, I'll use it, please no one take offense) and occasionally would really like one get passed by.
So I like the idea proposed here, submitting info with your pic could help, even if it is simple and basic. I also think some of the other thoughts here are worth considering. I especially like the one about not having the request box available until after the voting ends. I mean, if you want a critique, it shouldn't be a put out at all to go and ask for it at challenge end. What is this time and effort compared to the time and effort the critiquer is going to put into doing that critique? Also, I am sure there are people who just 'come across' the site, think it's kind of neat, and enter a challenge, and maybe aren't real interested, or whatever, and maybe never return, or just on an extremely casual basis. I'd rather see the cc's efforts going towards folks that at least are going to be around, and have a good chance of appreciating and even reading the critiques.
sorry for the long post :-)
taterbug |
|
|
|
11/28/2005 02:24:00 PM · #59 |
Originally posted by bear_music:
Originally posted by louddog:
If the intent of the CC club is to help people that need help, I'd drop all photos in the top 20% of the challenge form the list of photos needing critique. |
I'm not sure I'd agree with this. I think a LOT of lower-ranking entries are just fluff, tossed in to be "in" the challenge, and don't represent "serious" effort by the photographer. This is certainly true of many of my entries. On the other hand, there are a LOT of people who regularly finish in the top 20% but have never broken through to a ribbon.
For these sorts of shots, it's often easy to identify one or two aspects of the shot which, if altered or corrected, could have boosted it to the next level. And these people, by and large, are usually appreciative of serious critiques and make an effort to learn from them.
R. |
Good point.
|
|
|
|
11/28/2005 02:27:49 PM · #60 |
For some reason I can't stay away form this thread.
Looking at this problem from a mathematical viewpoint :
We have a finite number of volunteers ( V ) who can each comfortably do X number of critiques in a week. Therefore, the product of V x X should yield the number of critiques reasonably expected from the whole club. (CC)
Given that V is a known factor, we must then determine a value for X. Such a value could be agreed upon by consensus of opinion about reasonable expectations of performance, or extrapolated from analysis of past performance. ( I would suggest that the later method will yield the more reliable figure)
Once a value for x is established we can solve for CC and limit the number of requests to that figure on a FIFO basis.
Of course, since the value of V, while known at any particular time, is still a variable, the value of CC will have to be adjusted periodically.
This model does assume optimum efficiency for the V factor.
|
|
|
|
11/28/2005 02:47:17 PM · #61 |
Mind if I toss this to the kid for an algebraic breakdown? Good to see math used in real life examples. ;^)
Originally posted by Jammur:
For some reason I can't stay away form this thread.
Looking at this problem from a mathematical viewpoint :
We have a finite number of volunteers ( V ) who can each comfortably do X number of critiques in a week. Therefore, the product of V x X should yield the number of critiques reasonably expected from the whole club. (CC)
Given that V is a known factor, we must then determine a value for X. Such a value could be agreed upon by consensus of opinion about reasonable expectations of performance, or extrapolated from analysis of past performance. ( I would suggest that the later method will yield the more reliable figure)
Once a value for x is established we can solve for CC and limit the number of requests to that figure on a FIFO basis.
Of course, since the value of V, while known at any particular time, is still a variable, the value of CC will have to be adjusted periodically.
This model does assume optimum efficiency for the V factor. |
|
|
|
|
11/28/2005 06:44:14 PM · #62 |
Originally posted by MrsFuzzButt:
I received a CC on one of my images long after the challenge had ended and it took a while for me to even realize it was there. Perhaps a PM system to let people know the CC has been given would help this a bit. |
I have a template file for my critique so I can just paste the HTML headings into the comments window. I also have this text in that notepad file which is pasted into a PM to the photog
::: Critique Club :::
A review of your image "X X" has been added to the comments section of that image
Brett
Since there's no automated way on DPC for a notification, this seems to work best for me.
Brett |
|
|
|
11/28/2005 07:33:37 PM · #63 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
...My point is that I want it to lead the critique. If what the photographer says they were trying to do is not reflected in the image then the critique can address that. |
Yes, it could. It would no longer be a critique in the traditional sense, but I can see this being useful to those who are looking for a kind of casual mentorship. Those who would benefit from a critique which draws its facts from the image alone -without any leading commentary- however would be left hanging.
A good critique, the way I see it, comes from an unbiased study of the pure facts of the thing and not from anywhere outside of it. If we made photographers' comments mandatory, I'm quite sure the quality of such a critique would decline. Just because this kind of critical stance toward a photograph is already quite rare in this context, does not (IMO) diminish its value.
Much attention (here as frequently as elsewhere) is given to lesser works, to those instances where the photographer is failing or betraying his subject(s). If this attention could be diverted to works which are accomplished, which inspire us, we could be looking forward and up at exemplary modes, at models of photography instead of having to spend our interest and energy on work which, really, is or may not be ready and fit for study at all.
If this should become the mainstay of images to be prioritized for critique, I could not imagine how anyone could still look forward to the next image to be critiqued. Surely, we would want good critiques, too, for good photos.
Many questions a beginner may have or concerns he could, conceivably, evolve, have to do with the technical. Other questions or concerns he should have but he may not know how to ask have to do with artistic considerations. The disparity between intent and execution of a photo is quite natural for a beginner as it is for someone considerably more skilled and experienced. If he has a model, another image at his finger tips or in his mind he can study and compare to, he has an advantage in that he will know why and, fairly precisely, what questions to ask whom.
If he has no such thing, he may find himself with more answers than profitable questions, whose value he cannot determine.
Message edited by author 2005-11-28 21:40:41. |
|
|
|
11/28/2005 08:02:07 PM · #64 |
any objection to me re-PMing these folks who don't find that stuff useful and nicely asking them what they didn't find helpful or to click the helpful box if they did find it helpful?
EDIT: I mean from the CC standpoint...personally, I wouldn't care if I made anyone mad, but I don't want to violate some rule and lose my position on it or something -- I like to give a nice critique every now and then you know
Message edited by author 2005-11-28 20:03:07.
|
|
|
|
11/28/2005 08:03:29 PM · #65 |
Originally posted by deapee:
any objection to me re-PMing these folks who don't find that stuff useful and nicely asking them what they didn't find helpful or to click the helpful box if they did find it helpful? |
Some people may not like to get such a message, but I think if you ask nice and you put in the work, you should be allowed to find out why that person didn't read it or if they did, why it didn't help them.
|
|
|
|
11/29/2005 07:02:36 AM · #66 |
Originally posted by Rae-Ann:
I surely wasn't trying to offend anyone!! I am sorry if I did...I was just honestly asking, what more then, ISo, F stop aperature, and post production steps would help to understand how to reach the intended results.
Sorry, I am still kinda new here and still learning the ropes..My stupid question was only meant to clarify. for myself, to make it easier for the CC, not insult anyone |
huh??? Nobody was insulted. The hardest thing you find to understand/interprit on this site is how someone is feeling. ie if they are insulted or pissed off. Don't worry about it if you do cuz there is no way you'll please everybody. They only way to learn is to ask.
|
|
|
|
11/29/2005 07:08:58 AM · #67 |
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
Originally posted by notonline:
Originally posted by hbunch7187:
However, it seems that unless I'm sitting there holding their hand, or bribing them with free memberships, that it just isn't going to happen. |
Ouch, I joined the CC to help out NOT for any free stuff. |
I wasn't referring to anyone specific, I was referring to the fact that when I was offering the free membership, there were over 1000 crits given and since that ended (almost a month ago), there have been only 80 given. 80 in a month. A whopping 3 this week! (and one of them is mine) |
ok ok calm down. sheesh, no need to get angry. If one is your then the others are mine. I think I'm at 3 now for the week and show have more done.
I'd really like to see a way to skip a photo. ie. I'm not fond of kids shots and cannot find a polite way to critique the one in my buffer.
edit to add: I'm only kidding about the "calm down blah blah blah" and was meant for entertainment purposes only. :)
Message edited by author 2005-11-29 07:10:24.
|
|
|
|
11/29/2005 07:15:15 AM · #68 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
I've usually already started a lengthy comment when I think of the PM so clicking on the profile at that point loses whatever has been typed. |
Why not just use the right click feature??? right cligh the photog's name and open in new window???
|
|
|
|
11/29/2005 08:01:46 AM · #69 |
Originally posted by jadin:
I would, however, like to see something implemented to limit the number of critique requests... |
Any suggestions?
~Terry
|
|
|
|
11/29/2005 08:23:54 AM · #70 |
Originally posted by ClubJuggle:
Originally posted by jadin:
I would, however, like to see something implemented to limit the number of critique requests... |
Any suggestions?
~Terry |
Seems to me that that is what the suggestions in this thread would help do. |
|
|
|
11/29/2005 08:28:37 AM · #71 |
It's pretty easy to request a critique. If it were harder, or required more effort on the part of the photographer, the problem might take care of itself.
Right now the critique is requested before voting, but not performed until after voting. At the time the critique is requested, there is no way to know how many comments you'll get - perhaps the feedback the photographer is looking for will be handled through the normal voting process.
What if you could only request a critique after the challenge is over?
We could put the critique request under the "Learn" menu bar, and the page that loads when you choose it could mention that a more helpful critique could be done if the photographer comments were filled out. Whoever is doing the critique could look at them or not, as it pleased them. Perhaps the request could include the photographer name and image ID number, so it's easier to track the shot for a notification PM that the critique is complete.
--Laurie |
|
|
|
11/29/2005 08:42:04 AM · #72 |
Originally posted by notonline:
I like the idea a lot but I have two questions. Do you just look at yourself in the mirror and suggest it??? and do you ever get a good arguement for not implimenting your ideas??????
edit to add: I'd like to suggest it goes by equal oppertunity. If I got one this week then I'd be at the bottom of the list for next week. |
Fair questions.
Within the forums, there is a folder called Site Council Discussion. In the same way the Member Discussion folder is only visible to (paying) Members, Site Council and Administrators, the Site Council Discussion is only visible to Site Council and Administrators. Among other things, this folder is used to discuss new ideas for the site.
When any SC member presents an idea to the entire Site Council, we do so by starting a new thread in that folder. We discuss and refine there, and if there is mixed response we formally vote on it. Often, those ideas come from the community. Sometimes they are our own.
I and most other Site Council members suggest a lot more ideas than actually get implemented. Many times, this is because the discussion brings up problems with the idea. Other times, an idea is good but would be so difficult to implement that it ends up low on the priority list. In 3.5 years, I've certainly presented more than my share of bad ideas! Fortunately, with 20 of us on Site Council, the bad ones get filtered out before they get very far.
~Terry
|
|
|
|
11/29/2005 08:47:26 AM · #73 |
Originally posted by cpanaioti:
Thanks Robert. I've usually already started a lengthy comment when I think of the PM so clicking on the profile at that point loses whatever has been typed. I'll try and remember before I start next time. |
If you hold down your SHIFT key while clicking on the profile, it will open in a new window.
If you use Firefox, you can also press the CTRL key while clicking the profile to open it in a new tab.
~Terry
|
|
|
|
11/29/2005 08:48:22 AM · #74 |
Originally posted by notonline:
edit to add: I'd like to suggest it goes by equal oppertunity. If I got one this week then I'd be at the bottom of the list for next week. |
Great suggestion.
I'm not sure how easy that would be to code but I'll certainly present it.
~Terry
|
|
|
|
11/29/2005 08:51:58 AM · #75 |
Originally posted by jpochard:
I wonder if there would be a way to limit CC requests to only those within a certain maximum of comments? For instance, perhaps once you've reached the 15 or 20 number of comments received, that photo would automatically drop from the list to be critiqued.
I think something like that, or something (as suggested earlier in the thread) that requires more than a simple tic of the box to request a critique, would decrease the overwhelming waiting list.
EDITED to add that I also agree with the original posters idea of more information from the photographer.
I am CC member, but haven't done many for awhile. |
I like that suggestion.
Maybe after 20 comments, the box automatically unticks, but you can tick it again if you still feel you need a critique?
|
|
