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11/23/2005 05:18:10 PM · #1 |
In my opinion, out-takes should be posted Post Challenge. That is what an out-take is. It is also a matter of Site Etiquette and also gives courtesy to current submissions. A few reasons I have this opinion, one being that people taking the time to view/comment on these could be viewing/voting/commenting on 'real' entries. Not meant to be 'mean', just my honest 'opinion'.
Also, my view is the same on "I didn't enter X Challenge but how do you think this would have done?" while X,Y or Z are still 'in play'. Again, a few reasons I have this opinion, one of which is that it is akin to entering both Challenges, you just don't get a real score.
Defer the 'instant gratification'. It is only a week (or more in the case of Free Study IX) to wait. Consideration should be given to other users, including those that may prefer to keep the anonymity. This also includes 'restricting' posts of the same shot, or links that lead to it, on other sites. Discussion of ideas is currently an option in the Current Challenge thread but discretion should be used. Be original in your ideas. If people are struggling with creativity and originality (especially if they are new to 'this'), offer help or guidance, but "teach a man to fish"... - Just my opinion.
A Poll perhaps. A similar one was taken in August 2002;
Should users be allowed to discuss photos in the current challenge (including their own) in the forums?
Results
Yes - 54 votes
No - 164 votes
Yes, but only in a section marked for that discussion.
- 101 votes
As always, a lot of threads as well; in August 2002 A thread on the above poll, in September 2004 "Vanishing point: non entered pics, post in here!" and in October 2004 - "When to post out take...before, during or after".
Poll Archive edit: typo & adjusted links
Message edited by author 2005-11-23 17:25:22. |
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11/23/2005 05:45:49 PM · #2 |
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11/23/2005 05:55:53 PM · #3 |
I think many people agree with this, but we've yet to find a good way to communicate this thought into site policy or site administration.
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11/23/2005 06:01:31 PM · #4 |
i agree also but like frisca said, how to police it?
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11/23/2005 06:33:44 PM · #5 |
Agreement.
Sadness that police action is 1) needed, 2) unable to be accomplished.
Perhaps a "Site Etiquette" section to the FAQ would help, the premise of which is, while unable to police xxx actions, it is held in disfavor to xxx therefore please refrain from xxx. Along with suggested positives: if you vote below xx it is highly recommended that you comment as to why. Etc, etc.
Instead of net-police let simple etiquette help people tow the line. |
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11/23/2005 06:45:01 PM · #6 |
| Seems like a very simple solution - create an ignorable forum for outtakes. |
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11/23/2005 06:46:58 PM · #7 |
| Art-ken's brain is large. |
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11/23/2005 06:48:22 PM · #8 |
site council could pretty easily lock the offensive threads, and in time folks would get the hint.
i see no problem with that - forum moderating goes beyond putting out fires, and stopping political rants.
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11/23/2005 06:51:40 PM · #9 |
| soup-tim's brain is large. |
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11/23/2005 07:02:43 PM · #10 |
they often are not in threads of thier own but pop up in threads dedicated to other things like the scores thread.
Having moderated a number of internet groups myself, i honestly think that SC has enough on their plate upholding the standards that break actual policy to have to worry about site etiquette in addition.
I think etiquette is something the site, as a whole needs to politely enforse, provided we all agree on it. A few weeks back i did see a couple of members very nicely say to someone nonethewiser, 'we prefer to discuss outakes after the results are in to give those with actual enteries a chance at feedback (comments) first'.
The problem with this is occassionally POV clashes and someone follows that polite request to abstain with 'don't listen to so and so, here is what i think' and then site etiquette turns into personal preferance.
For that reason i think that alfrescos idea to add a little blurb on site ettiquette in the FAQ may serve as a backbone for explaining and even enforcing the acceptable mode of action on the forums. |
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11/23/2005 07:05:08 PM · #11 |
| Macrothing - I see and understand your points, but my experience with post-challenge outtakes is that people don't seem to care anymore, they are busy with ideas for the next challenge. Especially now with more challenges to enter. Ergo, I am in favour of during-challenge outtake threads, I love them for the impact they have on my photography skills. Just my opinion, I know most people don't like them. But to forbid these threads is a bit harsh IMO. Just let the site decide (catchy phrase...) FTR, I think that voting and commenting on entries is a different thing than commenting on outtakes, and at least in my case, the two actions don't interfere. When I'm browsing forums, that's what I feel like doing, and voting and commenting is a totally different thing. Hope you all understand what I mean, and we'll see. Just wanted to state my POV in this. |
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11/23/2005 07:59:29 PM · #12 |
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11/23/2005 08:09:34 PM · #13 |
Something I've mentioned before is that there really isn't a good time to post "outtakes".
1) If you post before the voting starts (not really an outtake, but an idea floater usually) others get upset.
2) If you post during the voting phase people get upset.
3) If you post after the voting has ended, people don't mind, but they don't really care to discuss it much either...moving on to the next challenge ideas, etc...
The best feedback comes during the above periods labeled 1 & 2.
I've seen this discussed SO many times and there are as many reasons for as against posting "outtakes". "After all this is a photography site" on the for side, "impacts voters unfairly" on the against side.
For the heck of it I did an experiment after the Landscape II challenge by posting to one of the "Outtake" threads, then waiting a couple of days and starting an "Individual Photograph Discussion" thread.
- The "Outtakes" thread generated zero (0) comments and 38 views.
- The "Individual Photograph Discussion" thread generated 5 comments (on posted images) and 183 additional image views.
I would say the way to go for real feedback is via an Individual Photograph Discussion thread (or something similar - Out and About - for example). The outtakes threads are good for a quick flash in the pan, that's about it - nothing substantial. Personally, I think everyone is all worked up other a very minor item.
JMO. Smile and keep having fun! ;^)
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11/23/2005 08:14:03 PM · #14 |
| Good info and good input g2bad. |
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11/23/2005 08:34:48 PM · #15 |
Originally posted by glad2badad:
I would say the way to go for real feedback is via an Individual Photograph Discussion thread (or something similar - Out and About - for example). The outtakes threads are good for a quick flash in the pan, that's about it - nothing substantial. Personally, I think everyone is all worked up other a very minor item.
JMO. Smile and keep having fun! ;^) |
YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!!
I cant' really tell you how your photo:
a) would have done in a challenge
b) should have done in a challenge
c) how I would have scored it in that challenge
d) how other people might have, should have, would have scored it in a challenge
***IT'S NOT IN THE CHALLENGE!!!!***
BUTTTTTTT!!!!!!!
I can tell you:
a) what your photo means to me
b) what I see and how it might be different
c) how, if I were approaching this subject (not topic), I would have done it differently....
I hate "out-takes"!
What does that mean, anyway?
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11/23/2005 08:55:47 PM · #16 |
As a last-minute voter this might cause me problems, but what if we closed the voting after 5 days instead of a week.
Then there would be a couple of days to discuss the results and post outtakes for comparison before the next challenge is announced.
It would discriminate against some people who can't vote until late, or who can't participate in discussion on those particular days, but I think it ought to work for most people.
Maybe we could try it for a week, with one member challenge and one set of open challenges -- post the limited voting deadline as a flagged "extra rule." |
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11/23/2005 08:58:21 PM · #17 |
Originally posted by KaDi:
YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!! BUTTTTTTT!!!!!!! |
KaDi has a stickyyyyyyyyy kkkkkkeeeeyyybbboooarrddd ;-) |
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11/23/2005 08:59:16 PM · #18 |
Originally posted by GeneralE:
As a last-minute voter this might cause me problems, but what if we closed the voting after 5 days instead of a week.
Then there would be a couple of days to discuss the results and post outtakes for comparison before the next challenge is announced.
It would discriminate against some people who can't vote until late, or who can't participate in discussion on those particular days, but I think it ought to work for most people.
Maybe we could try it for a week, with one member challenge and one set of open challenges -- post the limited voting deadline as a flagged "extra rule." |
The week gives everyone, no matter what their geographic location or work schedule a chance to participate to the fullest possible within a 7 day cycle. Under your proposition those of us who worke weekdays with weekends off would appear to be compromised in their participation.
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11/23/2005 09:00:31 PM · #19 |
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Originally posted by KaDi:
YESSSSSSSSS!!!!!! BUTTTTTTT!!!!!!! |
KaDi has a stickyyyyyyyyy kkkkkkeeeeyyybbboooarrddd ;-) |
WWWWWWWAAAAAANNNNNNNAAAAAA checkITTTTTT OUT????????????
(Am roflmaowy)
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11/23/2005 09:24:44 PM · #20 |
moderators can also 'ammend' posts. if something were to 'pop' up in the wrong place...
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11/24/2005 03:23:43 AM · #21 |
So basicly you're wanting to close down the 'Individual Photograph Discussion' forum for the month -- there is a Free Study going on after all, any photograph taken this month is an outtake. What about when there is a B&W challenge or a technique challenge. Should all images with leading lines be banned from the site when the 'Leading Lines' challenge is revisited?
Sorry, but this just doesn't seem like a reasonable course of action to take.
David
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11/24/2005 05:14:52 PM · #22 |
Originally posted by frisca:
I think many people agree with this, but we've yet to find a good way to communicate this thought into site policy or site administration. |
Many people likely do agree, but not many 'speak up', for a variety of reasons. I do hope that they do not just 'leave' instead of 'speaking up'.
Originally posted by alfresco:
Agreement.
Sadness that police action is 1) needed, 2) unable to be accomplished.
Perhaps a "Site Etiquette" section to the FAQ would help, the premise of which is, while unable to police xxx actions, it is held in disfavor to xxx therefore please refrain from xxx. Along with suggested positives: if you vote below xx it is highly recommended that you comment as to why. Etc, etc.
Instead of net-police let simple etiquette help people tow the line. |
I would like to see something like this.
Originally posted by Art Roflmao:
Seems like a very simple solution - create an ignorable forum for outtakes. |
Ignoring in an 'environment' like this works to a certain extent on issues that can be worked around, but when they start impacting on 'you' or making it 'not as easy' to use/view the site, then ignoring is not the solution. Also, 'ignoring out-takes' doesn't address the core issue of them. Sometimes they are 'second-choices' that people could not decide on at submission stage, therefore it is a way of 'showing' their #2 choice. Sometimes they are a pseudo 'shoe-in', as I stated in the first post.
Finally on the 'ignore' note; the ultimate 'ignore' is of the site itself.
Originally posted by Britannica:
So basicly you're wanting to close down the 'Individual Photograph Discussion' forum for the month -- there is a Free Study going on after all, any photograph taken this month is an outtake. What about when there is a B&W challenge or a technique challenge. Should all images with leading lines be banned from the site when the 'Leading Lines' challenge is revisited?
Sorry, but this just doesn't seem like a reasonable course of action to take.
David |
No and I never suggested anything even remotely like what you have implied. "Basically", what I would like is to see Site Etiquette established and respected on DPChallenge. That includes many things, one of which is etiquette on out-takes (and indeed 'in-takes'), as I outlined in my first post.
..................................................
As for "people move on the next week", yes they do, that is the nature of the site. But, for those that seek feedback or just wish to showcase, there is always their portfolio and anyone interested enough in their 'work' or their submitted entry, will take a look - even casually - at their other 'ideas'. Seeking guidance on what to enter and seeking confirmation on what they entered or did not enter, are two different things.
It is the nature of the 'game' that it moves on after the week, but anyone keen enough for feedback will wait and post after, and anyone interested enough in out-takes (especially of particular photographers/shots) will also take a look, and comment if they wish. In the meantime, there is (as best as possible), an anonymous and 'blind' Challenge to participate in and vote &/or comment on.
'Challenge Results' is already there and apt for out-takes threads & even 'underrated' (different subject). A 'reminder sticky' could be warranted at the top of that Forum and 'Current Challenge' for these issues.
Again, I am requesting a Poll be taken on Site Etiquette (with or without the inclusion of 'sub topics'), especially if introducing it will be a 'community dictated' initiative. This would give a better idea on what the majority would like.
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11/24/2005 07:04:59 PM · #23 |
Macro - I didn't get "quoted" in your last post. :(
In your profile, bio section, you've posted the following:
Comments and 'pretend votes' are welcomed and appreciated on Portfolio/Challenge Out-takes, but only if you have already done your 'quota' on the current Challenge(s). Voting and commenting on Current Challenges should take priority - "in my opinion".
Sounds like you're not opposed to "outtakes", you just prefer that people do their duty and vote/comment on the active challenges first. That's a noble thought.
So once they've completed their obligations, outtakes are cool right?
I still think this is a bit overblown. It's a photography site. It's human nature to want to show your work, and it doesn't always have to be done via a challenge entry. Actually, better real feedback can be obtained by posting images to an Individual Photography Discussion thread.
As for visiting peoples portfolios and providing feedback/comments - that's another noble thought, but not very realistic. Most feedback is generated by getting your image out there and asking for help/assistance/feedback, etc...via a forum thread posting.
JMO of course. ;^)
Originally posted by glad2badad:
Something I've mentioned before is that there really isn't a good time to post "outtakes".
1) If you post before the voting starts (not really an outtake, but an idea floater usually) others get upset.
2) If you post during the voting phase people get upset.
3) If you post after the voting has ended, people don't mind, but they don't really care to discuss it much either...moving on to the next challenge ideas, etc...
The best feedback comes during the above periods labeled 1 & 2.
I've seen this discussed SO many times and there are as many reasons for as against posting "outtakes". "After all this is a photography site" on the for side, "impacts voters unfairly" on the against side.
For the heck of it I did an experiment after the Landscape II challenge by posting to one of the "Outtake" threads, then waiting a couple of days and starting an "Individual Photograph Discussion" thread.
- The "Outtakes" thread generated zero (0) comments and 38 views.
- The "Individual Photograph Discussion" thread generated 5 comments (on posted images) and 183 additional image views.
I would say the way to go for real feedback is via an Individual Photograph Discussion thread (or something similar - Out and About - for example). The outtakes threads are good for a quick flash in the pan, that's about it - nothing substantial. Personally, I think everyone is all worked up other a very minor item.
JMO. Smile and keep having fun! ;^) |
Message edited by author 2005-11-24 19:06:09.
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11/24/2005 07:24:06 PM · #24 |
| Dang, I was just getting ready to post some more outtakes... :) |
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11/24/2005 07:57:59 PM · #25 |
Outtakes are pictures that have not been entered in a challenge, but might have been. I usually find them the opposite of offensive. They can be interesting and usually provide additional insight to challenge ideas.
When they are posted correctly ie. with no indication of what the poster actually entered, it would seem they actually contribute to anonymity; they provide a interesting visual addendum to supplement ideas already in the challenge, which may or may not have already been presented.
Outtakes are less offensive & time consuming than pages and pages of inane mindless chatter in wildly popular current score threads which show little or no restraint, which contain glaring breaches of anonymity, and remarks that are often obvious attempts of challenge voting persuasion - if not challenge manipulation. |
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