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08/14/2002 09:48:51 PM · #1
Should users be allowed to discuss photos in the current challenge (including their own) in the forums?
I see nothing wrong with discussing about photos in the current challenge. In fact I wanted to talk about it last week on the two pictures that came first and second because I was excited by them. I didn't because people have been saying that it was not in true etiquette. So I granted their wishes. I want to asked everyone, what does someone enjoy the most, movies or the academy awards?
It would be better to talk about the pictures while voting out for there is more excitement and you could discuss why you liked or disliked a photograph. After the voting is over and there is a winner there is no excitement unless there is a disqualification or something major too discuss.
You know who has won and I think the pictures lose interest after that by most people. The contest or the prize which is more exciting to you? Even a better idea, don't let us know how the voting is going until it is final that would solve everything?


* This message has been edited by the author on 8/14/2002 9:50:18 PM.
08/14/2002 09:58:56 PM · #2
I agree that discussing photos during the challenge probably won't affect voting overly much... I have left people comments asking them to PM me if I wasn't understanding their shot and it's helped me see things I would have missed...

But mainly I like the idea because at 5 past 12 Sundaynight, there is a flurry of "way to goes" and then very little discussion of the merits of photos from the previous week. If we don't discuss them during the week, I don't think we will ever discuss them.

I feel strongly that these conversations should take place in a special folder so those that don't want to see who did what, won't see them...

But that's just me :)
08/14/2002 10:48:52 PM · #3
What happened to discussing the photos, without disclosing the entrants name? My opinion is that disclosing who took various pictures is definitely opening the voting up to influencing of voters. Definitely would unbalance the playing field, in my opinion. The more time you have to "PM " voters that didn't vote your picture high enough and "explaining your picture" to them, the greater the chances of raising your average.
No, thanks! I'd rather come in last everytime, and do it on merit (or lack of it], than to try to be part of a clique boosting themselves up a few notches by disclosing to each other which photo they'd "like you to love."

08/14/2002 10:54:56 PM · #4
I agree with cameo
08/14/2002 10:56:26 PM · #5
Originally posted by cameo:
What happened to discussing the photos, without disclosing the entrants name? My opinion is that disclosing who took various pictures is definitely opening the voting up to influencing of voters. Definitely would unbalance the playing field, in my opinion. The more time you have to "PM " voters that didn't vote your picture high enough and "explaining your picture" to them, the greater the chances of raising your average.
No, thanks! I'd rather come in last everytime, and do it on merit (or lack of it], than to try to be part of a clique boosting themselves up a few notches by disclosing to each other which photo they'd "like you to love."


Ditto!!!!
I don't even tell my sister which is mine until the voting is over.

:>) Shar

08/14/2002 11:05:10 PM · #6
Originally posted by syamjonimi:
Originally posted by cameo:
[i]What happened to discussing the photos, without disclosing the entrants name? My opinion is that disclosing who took various pictures is definitely opening the voting up to influencing of voters. Definitely would unbalance the playing field, in my opinion. The more time you have to "PM " voters that didn't vote your picture high enough and "explaining your picture" to them, the greater the chances of raising your average.
No, thanks! I'd rather come in last everytime, and do it on merit (or lack of it], than to try to be part of a clique boosting themselves up a few notches by disclosing to each other which photo they'd "like you to love."



IMO: Discussing the pictures during a challenge is something that should be allowed only as long as it is anonymous. I have participated for some time now and have done fairly well and I feel it is only because I am not in the clique. If they are allowed to communicate without restrictions they will be in control of this site and it will be history. I now enjoy the site very much and have made a substantial investment in equipment due to the re-spawning of my interest in photography. I am grateful for that experience and hope to continue in the fun, but I feel it won't last much longer if the site rules take a new direction. If it ain't broke don't fix it!

Autool

08/14/2002 11:17:35 PM · #7
I agree with cameo.
08/14/2002 11:36:33 PM · #8
who is the clique that is being referenced, and how do you join? :-)

clique, or no, i don't think it is a good idea to discuss pictures while voting. i do believe it biases the voter. of course, if the voter knows he/she will be biased, just don't join the discussion.





* This message has been edited by the author on 8/14/2002 11:37:31 PM.


* This message has been edited by the author on 8/14/2002 11:38:15 PM.
08/14/2002 11:54:04 PM · #9
my theory is that if we talk about the photos at all, even if we don't disclose the names, than that will make other voters lean toward the comments made instead of acting on their own feelings. Here is an example...
I post my picture, than I go into the forum to tell everyone (without telling them who I am and that the photo is mine) That the photo is GREAT because I feel that it portrays the yearn of a little girl to be with her parents because of lost love in her adult years and blah blah blah...
Now, I have explained the photo and everyone will go "ahhh...I get it now" and vote it higher than they may have it there were no explanation with it.
Here is the problem with that...
My photo only vaguely portrayed that scene and in that fact wasn't clear as to the message. We've ALL seen photo's that WE felt "didn't meet the challenge" when the photographer thought that it DID, only because they knew the story behind it. However, if we can now put a description with our photo(even if indirectly in the forum), than everyone will understand the "message being portrayed" through the description and NOT through the photo.
All those photos that we've rated "does not meet challenge" because we didn't understand the photo...everyone's said it!! "I don't get this". Ok, folks, that means that the photo isn't clear!!! If that person were to now go into the forums and even indirectly "explain" the photo then we'll go..."Oh, Ok." ONLY because of the description, when in fact, the photo really had nothing to do with the challenge, but the description did.
There is my 2 cents, I know people aren't going to like it, but that's how I feel. There are the die hard honest DPC-ers, and then there are the snakes. The snakes will win cause they "indirectly, but legally cheated" and the true photographers that are trying to better their photography (and not cheat) will be left out in the mud.
Also, I think that if it's discussed in the forums, than there will be less constructive criticizm to help the photographers better their ability cause when one person makes one comment in the forum, than everyone is going to think it's "been said, no need to say it again". The way it is right now, 14 different people could say the same thing but in a slightly different way, and still have a slightly different way of saying it, and each and every one of those comments are helpful. If you see in the forum "The picture of the boat is a little bright". and you were thinking the same thing, but that maybe the light should be at a different angle but you figure you wont say anthing cause it's already been said. I think that a lot of people would do that. Am I wrong? Have you never done this with other topics in the forum before?
Anyway, that's where I stand, if anyone wants to know, I voted no. I am sorry if this upsets anyone, but I have explained myself because maybe my thoughts hadn't occured to anyone. I think that it would seriously harm the site and sway the voting. I would seriously consider weather or not to continue on this site.
Thank you, and again, I'm sorry if I have upset anyone.
Take care.
~Heather~
P.S. Why do you want to know what other people are thinking BEFORE voting anyway? If it's because you're concerned that it's not getting publicity after the contest ends, folks...that's why they post everyone's comments publicly. If you are concerned, read them, that's what they are there for. And if you are further concerned, make a few less unnessisary posts and make more comments.
Now if you don't mind...I'm going to go make some helpful comments on some photos in the challenge this week. Thank you.
08/15/2002 12:42:26 AM · #10
It is a great pity indeed that by Sunday night 10:00 pm PacTime the interest in the results and the "old" pictures dies down. THAT is what ought to be changed! How? Well, the home page only shows a few current topics and I have seen excellent threads buried becaused of that. Why not have on the home page a Forum section specifically devoted to Last week's Challenge and that section stays on the Home Page ALL WEEK? (Lots of newbies here don't seem to click to Community/Forums/etc. and often, when I'm lazy, I don't do that either).

I voted No on the poll as well. Voting is either anonymous or it isn't. It can't be half anonymous and half public :) I don't like the explaining and the self promotion or the promoting of some other pictures. Seems it would generate a lot of whining threads. Fact is if you do very badly, you may not like that on Monday but by Friday that effect has worn off and you look forward to the next week. If, however, you would have a chance to vent, you would start threads on Monday about the unfair comments, explaining what the pictures really is all about, and the horrible circumstances under which you had to make it which caused that nasty side effect, etc, etc. The pictures who would end up getting less viewing attention would be the ones whose owner did not discuss them in the forums.
08/15/2002 01:26:52 AM · #11
I completely agree with Heather. Very well said. And Cameo, too. I think it is a bad idea to discuss photos during the voting process. A photo should be able to stand on it's own merits and not be influenced by comments.

Awhile back there was some discussion about presenting photos for critiques. Does anyone know whether this may happen or not? I think it would be a lot of fun and we could learn even more from it.

T
08/15/2002 02:06:40 AM · #12
Originally posted by timj351:
I completely agree with Heather. Very well said. And Cameo, too. I think it is a bad idea to discuss photos during the voting process. A photo should be able to stand on it's own merits and not be influenced by comments.

Awhile back there was some discussion about presenting photos for critiques. Does anyone know whether this may happen or not? I think it would be a lot of fun and we could learn even more from it.

T



I have seen a few photos posted in the forums with the forum title CRITIQUE 03 or what ever number critique it is. I am not sure how to do the adding of a link to a post yet, but I believe you can find them by going to community at the top, clicking on forums and then going to the Q and A forums. The photos posted so far (I think there have been 6 now) have not been in any challenge so far that I've noticed. I appreciate that. Don't think it would be a good idea to post a photo that is currently being voted upon, or a possible photo in the upcomming challenge. Sorry I couldn't provide you with the link to that, maybe someone who knows how to do it can do that for you if you can't find them another way.
I liked the idea of having the post for the ended challenge up on the main page all week. I think that this may get more posts in regard to the photos that have been voted upon and still let the people that have something to say, say it. Good idea.
Take care all, goodnight.
~Heather~
08/15/2002 03:24:04 AM · #13
This week and in some weeks before I went away for a month, I've started threads in the forums discussing photos I really liked from the previous challenge on Mondays. Journey is correct, the threads get buried at some point and stop appearing on the front page. The fact that I'm in Australia means that I guess all the Americans virtually miss out on the discussion because of timezone differences.

I go back to an idea I talked about last week - study groups. If we could all join small groups, of a limited size (no more than 10 people maybe) and discuss our photos there during the challenge week, it would take a lot of this kind of thing away from the forums. I think this would be a great enhancement to the site.
08/15/2002 05:37:51 AM · #14
Like Heather I also voted no. Here's my reasoning:

Any photo that generates discussion on the forums and therefore comes to the attention of the voters is at an unfair advantage or disadvantage compared to the others. Someone might start interpreting the shot for people and unless they can do that for every shot then it skews the playing field. I'm not talking about cheating - just honest, active discussion.

As another example, I think everyone would agree that jmsetzler (tugs forelock :-) is very well respected in these parts. And rightly so - he's a hell of a photographer. However, if his shot were to be revealed or even if which was his shot was to become a topic of discussion, it might tend to make people vote higher on his picture than others - because they know he's good and because they like him.

Sorry to use you as the example here John - I could have picked any one of a number of prominent photographers on DPC.

So on balance I think - no, we shouldn't talk about pictures while the voting is going on. Let the pictures stand on their own. Don't risk letting other people's interpretations or personalities get involved in the voting process.

John
08/15/2002 12:08:43 PM · #15
I thought that is what forums were for is discussion. So you want to censor and limit to what we discuss and didn't I just read from some of you that it would be unfair to discuss pictures that were being voted on? So what is fair and unfair? While your chewing on that, I wanted to bring up another point. Why not reveal the person that is making the comments on our pictures as the voting unfolds? Why wait until the contest is over? That way you could thank the person in an instant message for the help or discuss it with them. Another thing you could check upon that person that is making the comment and see if he or she is creditable by looking at their work on this website. Anyone can be a critic but are they good or bad or as that matter helpful? If you could see and compare their photography as you read their comments and their work looks good to you, then they must be doing something right? That would be helpful I believe.
08/15/2002 12:17:51 PM · #16
I agree with Bob and have said that it really makes no sense to keep the current comments anonymous.

I know some folks feel that this would create some kind of advantage for people ( I disagree ) but I think it would go a long way in calming the folks down from running to the forums to try and weed out the commentors.

I do not want discussions of photos in the forums. Too many new people come here every week and and that would be unfair to them and also have a very large effect on the voting.

But definitely let comments and their authors be listed for the photographer to see as the comments are made.

* This message has been edited by the author on 8/15/2002 12:18:11 PM.
08/15/2002 12:45:02 PM · #17
I think Journey hit a valid point further up in this thread (and others); perhaps there should be a specific folder under the Discuss the Results of the Challenge section re: Discuss this photo or something like that. Yes, there isn't too much of that going on after the challenge is over, but I don't see many people attempting to post it either. All I see is post about "my favorites" or "unappreciated photos" type of threads.... let's elaborate on that? How about a photo of the day discussion. Is there a way to tag a photo and the 5 (?) photos with the most tags during the challenge get discussed in the subsequent 5 days following the challenge? I think Hokie mentioned something along those lines before, and perhaps I was one to misunderstand....


08/15/2002 12:49:35 PM · #18
Originally posted by hokie:
I agree with Bob and have said that it really makes no sense to keep the current comments anonymous. [...] But definitely let comments and their authors be listed for the photographer to see as the comments are made

Sorry Hokie....I usually agree with you 99.9% of the time, but not on this issue. Two good reasons to keep comments anonymous:

1. You cannot contact the person who left the comment, and possibly explain your photo, your feelings about your photo, which could then influence this person to revise the score on your photo.

2. [the flip side of Bob's remark] If you don't know the background or skill level of the person leaving the comment, you have to go totally by the content in the comment. It forces YOU to think about the points in the comment.....and not second-guess the skill level of the person. Someone with less experience than you can still make a valid comment that is worth considering.

I like the system the way it is now.....if you want to sign your comments, you still have that option.
08/15/2002 01:05:30 PM · #19
Originally posted by bobgaither:
I thought that is what forums were for is discussion. So you want to censor and limit to what we discuss and didn't I just read from some of you that it would be unfair to discuss pictures that were being voted on? So what is fair and unfair? While your chewing on that, I wanted to bring up another point. Why not reveal the person that is making the comments on our pictures as the voting unfolds? Why wait until the contest is over? That way you could thank the person in an instant message for the help or discuss it with them. Another thing you could check upon that person that is making the comment and see if he or she is creditable by looking at their work on this website. Anyone can be a critic but are they good or bad or as that matter helpful? If you could see and compare their photography as you read their comments and their work looks good to you, then they must be doing something right? That would be helpful I believe.

See, now you are bringing up a totally different subject. I'm not as opposed to doing this. The comments are still private and not viewed by the other voters. By revealing WHO wrote the comment in the private comments that only become public until after voting really doesn't hurt anyone, and wont sway other voters votes, as other voters can't view the comments. As a matter of fact, some people DO reveal who they are. I know at least one of my comments has been signed. Here is my theory, if you want thanks ahead of time and would like to discuss it privately with the photographer (IF the photographer is so inclined) then start signing your comments. There is NOTHING saying that you can't sign your private comment to the photo. And then IF and only IF the photographer wants their photo to be discussed they can respond. The problem with doing this in the forums is that I wouldn't want my photo discussed amongst the people before voting ended. I want individual comments, and individual votes. By doing it in the private comment the photographer has the control to discuss it if they want it discussed. Maybe if there is a particular photo you would like to discuss with someone before voting ends, simply make the private comment and reveal your identity, and that still gives the photographer the choice on the subject. This isn't a bad idea. I have signed a few of my comments. Actually, this is a much better compromise rather than just throwing it into the forums where people can't choose weather or not their photo is publicly discussed. Depending on the comment, of course, if it were signed, I would try to respond with a proper response if I felt it were nessasary.
What does everyone else think? Better idea than forcing people to not have the choice of having their photo publicly discussed??

I would love to keep it the way it is now, but if I absolutely had to choose...I would chose it to be this way.
~Heather~

* This message has been edited by the author on 8/15/2002 1:06:03 PM.
08/15/2002 01:38:45 PM · #20
Originally posted by LanSnake:
Sorry Hokie....I usually agree with you 99.9% of the time, but not on this issue. Two good reasons to keep comments anonymous:

1. You cannot contact the person who left the comment, and possibly explain your photo, your feelings about your photo, which could then influence this person to revise the score on your photo.

2. [the flip side of Bob's remark] If you don't know the background or skill level of the person leaving the comment, you have to go totally by the content in the comment. It forces YOU to think about the points in the comment.....and not second-guess the skill level of the person. Someone with less experience than you can still make a valid comment that is worth considering.

I like the system the way it is now.....if you want to sign your comments, you still have that option.


We are just going to have to disagree on this I guess.
:-)

I do not expect people to change their comments by having someone contact them. I wouldn't and therfore I give other people the same credit for sticking to their opinion.

Second point, I don't think people pay attention to the comments in a constructive manner until AFTER they know who made them. So I really don't think people consider most comments during the voting anyway. And if they did want to clarify a comment it hard to do so in the current format of waiting till voting is over.

I get maybe one REALLY good suggestion every week that I feel I can incorporate without altering my original intent of the photo. Usually it comes from a regular contributor but sometimes its a fresh face giving good insight. Most of the comments are just personal preference stuff.

Listen, if it was all about me..I'd just have a totally open site..no anonymity. I dont care about who knows who did what but it seems like (based on comments every week) many other folks do to a very high degree.

Anyway, either of our opinions are just supposition. There is no way to factually prove either argument.


* This message has been edited by the author on 8/15/2002 1:41:29 PM.
08/15/2002 01:51:44 PM · #21
Originally posted by LanSnake:
Originally posted by hokie:
[i]I agree with Bob and have said that it really makes no sense to keep the current comments anonymous. [...] But definitely let comments and their authors be listed for the photographer to see as the comments are made


Sorry Hokie....I usually agree with you 99.9% of the time, but not on this issue. Two good reasons to keep comments anonymous:

1. You cannot contact the person who left the comment, and possibly explain your photo, your feelings about your photo, which could then influence this person to revise the score on your photo.

2. [the flip side of Bob's remark] If you don't know the background or skill level of the person leaving the comment, you have to go totally by the content in the comment. It forces YOU to think about the points in the comment.....and not second-guess the skill level of the person. Someone with less experience than you can still make a valid comment that is worth considering.

I like the system the way it is now.....if you want to sign your comments, you still have that option.[/i]

I really like the system the way it is now too. I hope it doesn't come down to where we HAVE to chose. But IF we have to choose, I think that privately revealing who you are is better than publicly revealing who you are. At least then the entire community isn't swayed one way or another. I mean, i have a total of 9 comments right now. If I contacted every single one of them and convinced them to give me 10's, in all honestly, it wouldn't affect my score much...however, if I publicly convinced like 40 people to give me 10's, then it would affect how the site was run. Maybe it will raise the ammount of comments you actually get. Who knows.

Another thing I was thinking about. Before I posted anything on this site, I spent like 2 weeks just observing and reading profiles, and looking at past challenges. I noticed that people recieve a lot more comments than they give. Not everyone, but mostly. Maybe you could make yourself a private little promise, that for every comment you get, you give out at least 3. I have 9 comments. I don't think that giving 27 comments is too much to ask. Then those 27 people would all give out 3 comments per comment recieved and so on. I understand that this way, you will get a lot more comments and then it would get hard to give out 3 for ever 1 recieved, but at the VERY LEAST recieve 1, give 1. And if you can give more, great. I personally have given over 50 well thought out, very useful (in my mind) comments in this challenge and still have 3 days left, where I plan on giving more.
However, I would rather recieve 1 really good useful comment that helped my photography improve, than 100 "great photo" comments. So I don't know exactly what would be helpful. And if I had to explain my photo to everyone who commented, then I would probably assume that my photo doesn't portray the message clearly.
Well, like I said. Would rather have it stay the way it is, but if people want to sign their comments, I wont complain and will only respond if I feel it nessisary.
But I'm definately agains the forum discussion thingy. Whew, I need a break, I'm starting to confuse myself. lol.

"Autool" signs all his private comments, as well, I've see a lot signed from "jim" I would like to hear from them on weather or not the photographers try to change their minds on their scores, or if the photographers try to explain themselves to get better ratings, and if so, how they react to it, if at all.

I see a lot of good points and bad ideas (in my mind) as well. I think we will be able to come to some kind of agreement on exactly what to do, if anything. THIS is what the forums are for. And I think that they are serving their purpose well today.
I'd like to thank everyone for giving their views on this, even if I don't totally agree, different views instill different ideas and for that I'm appreciative.
Take care and good luck in the challenge. :)
~Heather~
08/15/2002 02:10:12 PM · #22
I like to give comments when I like to give em.

Lately I don't feel like giving too many. But then I don't put a lot of emphasis on receiving comments either :-)

In my job I talk about the merits of somebody's photography as it relates to a job I am working on at least 2 hours out of every day.

In my new job I will be talking about photos 4 hours or more every day. I just get photo critiqued out UNLESS I see something that I would buy in my job..usually I may have just paid a photographer or design house big bucks for something I saw done better here :-/

So..for me...the simple act of comparing my meager attempts to other more talented photographers is comment to me enough.

But that may not work for everybody I understand..but I am sure others may feel the same as I do at times...critiqued out :-)

* This message has been edited by the author on 8/15/2002 2:11:14 PM.
08/15/2002 02:20:10 PM · #23
I voted NO. There's definitely the liklihood that it would affect the voting as it's taking place. And I don't think hiding it away in a forum that's not on the front page adequately addresses that. To me the answer is simple. If you're moved to comment on a photo, do so after the challenge results are revealed. The photos are right there in the archive, everyone can access them. The idea that people lose interest just because the votings over only goes to prove that comments would influence voting. In my opinion if you're moved by a photo, and you neglect to write about it because the voting is over, that's on you.
08/15/2002 02:25:45 PM · #24
Originally posted by hokie:
I like to give comments when I like to give em.

Lately I don't feel like giving too many. But then I don't put a lot of emphasis on receiving comments either :-)

In my job I talk about the merits of somebody's photography as it relates to a job I am working on at least 2 hours out of every day.

In my new job I will be talking about photos 4 hours or more every day. I just get photo critiqued out UNLESS I see something that I would buy in my job..usually I may have just paid a photographer or design house big bucks for something I saw done better here :-/

So..for me...the simple act of comparing my meager attempts to other more talented photographers is comment to me enough.

But that may not work for everybody I understand..but I am sure others may feel the same as I do at times...critiqued out :-



I can relate...completely. I used to work for a drycleaners and did other peoples leaundry ALL day long and when I got home, I looked at my piles of laundry, kicked them to the side, and did something else. The only reason I even brought it up, is because someone mentinoed not getting enough comments. I am very excited that my photo is just up there getting looked at, and the comments are a bonus. I've gotten a couple helpful ones. As a beginner photographer I really appreciate the comments, and want to try to return the favor. Besides, I'm a stay at home mom now and have a lot of down time on my hands. lol. (just in case you couldn't tell. :))
3 days, 10 hours and 30 minutes till Monday!!
Good luck everyone!
~Heather~
08/15/2002 02:26:33 PM · #25
Maybe you could make yourself a private little promise, that for every comment you get, you give out at least 3text

I call that comment karma. (komment?) ;-) I've found that comments begat comments. Everytime I make a conscious decision to comment on photo's, the next time I check the home page - bingo! - I have received some.
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